TPF's Response to Terms Offered

[Master Hakai]

Thats because they wont get any and they know it.

Once again, I'd point out the fact that just saying something doesn't make it true. I don't think you're even trying at this point. Are you?

[astronaut jones]

Thats because they wont get any and they know it.

It's because PC actually has this thing called integrity, and they're not going to lower themselves to pandering the way TPF has.

[Finster Baby]

Really?

Because I don't remember asking for !@#$. You sure? You really, really, really sure about that? Unless I'm mistaken and I was never the leader of poison clan, I don't remember pushing for harsh reps.

Also, shouldn't you be blaming me for that, if I in fact did? I'm not in PC anymore. I'm still the same person, atleast I think I am, I'll go ask my friend, the former player known as greenacres if I am, maybe I'm not. Anyway, shouldn't that be put on me then, and not them?

Yeahhhh.. that would be best, don't you think? That would make more sense, don't you think? Oh wait, you're not trying to make sense, you're just trying to be outraged.

yeahhh..

I have found the logs (god I have a lot of them.)

I apologize for the inaccurate statement. It was not PC who wanted more than what we were thinking at the time. I have admended my remarks.

Carry on, nothing to see here.

[astronaut jones]

I have found the logs (god I have a lot of them.)

I apologize for the inaccurate statement. It was not PC who wanted more than what we were thinking at the time. I have admended my remarks.

Carry on, nothing to see here.

awesome, me loves you long time, mr. finsterbaby <3

[Newhotness]

celtics464, it seems like you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. You really arent making any points. Why does PC need to come say anything in this thread? everything is being said for them. And im sure they are enjoying watching TPFers baw in this thread.

[Trout]

celtics464, it seems like you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. You really arent making any points. Why does PC need to come say anything in this thread? everything is being said for them. And im sure they are enjoying watching TPFers baw in this thread.

I know I am.

[celtics464]

It's because PC actually has this thing called integrity, and they're not going to lower themselves to pandering the way TPF has.

lets not forget who started whining about this negotiation first. (karma)

Anyways back to what really matters.

I'd say the leadership on both sides has failed their members so far in this situation. It could easily be handled in negotiations. TPF's pride wont allow them to pay PC and Karma's pride wont allow them to restructure the deal. PC can still be paid if the terms are reworked. Instead everyone argues over nonsense.

Karma is better off receiving reps to rebuild however they get them, and TPF is better off peacing out the war. So why aren't they getting it done? If they cant agree to terms maybe they should change who is representing each side at the bargaining table. theres no excuse for why both sides can't get their way here.

[Kilkenny]

Spying is in violation of the NAP. You wanted a violation, there it is, the treaty was null and void. You can ride around on your white horse all you want, if this went to a court of law PC did nothing but follow the treaty to it's wording. It doesn't matter if it was poorly worded, TPF wrote it in the first place.

Like I said earlier in this thread, I only wish Hoo had log dumped about the NAP on his way out to prove TPF are full of $*%£.

The problem is he couldn't. The proof didn't exist and if he did log dump it, it would show he didn't know what he was talking about.

[celtics464]

celtics464, it seems like you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. You really arent making any points. Why does PC need to come say anything in this thread? everything is being said for them. And im sure they are enjoying watching TPFers baw in this thread.

I'm not trying to. I guess maybe i should just spell out my points from now on instead of expecting people to figure them out on their own.

Here they are.

1. Stop using TPF's past history to assign guilt and reps. Its irrelevant.

2. Restructure the damn thing so that TPF doesn't have to pay PC directly.

Pretty simple. Everyone wins. Refusal to do so only proves that the intended punishment is disbandment (which for the most part has already been stated throughout the discussion.) This would make Karma as bad as the people they claimed to be fighting against. Karma won its obvious, refusing to give in, in this case, is petty. TPF has agreed to restructure in order to not pay PC. SO RESTRUCTURE!

[Velocity111]

I'm not trying to. I guess maybe i should just spell out my points from now on instead of expecting people to figure them out on their own.

Here they are.

1. Stop using TPF's past history to assign guilt and reps. Its irrelevant.

2. Restructure the damn thing so that TPF doesn't have to pay PC directly.

Pretty simple. Everyone wins. Refusal to do so only proves that the intended punishment is disbandment (which for the most part has already been stated throughout the discussion.) This would make Karma as bad as the people they claimed to be fighting against. Karma won its obvious, refusing to give in, in this case, is petty. TPF has agreed to restructure in order to not pay PC. SO RESTRUCTURE!

I can't find it for the life of me, but I recall a post in one of the two [ooc]threads[/ooc] that had an somebody posting an [ooc]IRC log from OneBallMan[/ooc] stating that restructuring the aid so that PC received tech was unacceptable to them. Or maybe I'm imagining things... I would try and find it but I have no idea who said it <_>

[OneBallMan]

lets not forget who started whining about this negotiation first. (karma)

Anyways back to what really matters.

I'd say the leadership on both sides has failed their members so far in this situation. It could easily be handled in negotiations. TPF's pride wont allow them to pay PC and Karma's pride wont allow them to restructure the deal. PC can still be paid if the terms are reworked. Instead everyone argues over nonsense.

Karma is better off receiving reps to rebuild however they get them, and TPF is better off peacing out the war. So why aren't they getting it done? If they cant agree to terms maybe they should change who is representing each side at the bargaining table. theres no excuse for why both sides can't get their way here.

We have made multiple attempts to do what you describe, but no one is responding to our queries. We don't say that as an attempt to embarass, but as a real plea to do as you describe. Bleeting lulzers aside, that is what we want.

[celtics464]

I can't find it for the life of me, but I recall a post in one of the two [ooc]threads[/ooc] that had an somebody posting an [ooc]IRC log from OneBallMan[/ooc] stating that restructuring the aid so that PC received tech was unacceptable to them. Or maybe I'm imagining things... I would try and find it but I have no idea who said it <_>

Well if thats the case... then its worthless for any of us to even discuss anymore. Its just a hot mess at that point. But ballman says just above that my idea is what they have been aiming to achieve.

Edited July 26, 2009 by celtics464

[Newhotness]

I'm not trying to. I guess maybe i should just spell out my points from now on instead of expecting people to figure them out on their own.

1. Stop using TPF's past history to assign guilt and reps. Its irrelevant.

2. Restructure the damn thing so that TPF doesn't have to pay PC directly.

1. Then that would defeat the purpose of Karma. What goes around comes around, meaning you get punished for your PAST.

2. THey already said thats not acceptable.

Still not making any valid points. even when you tried to spell them out

[Vanadrin Failing]

I'd say the leadership on both sides has failed their members so far in this situation.

Actually, it's been said a number of times that TPF's membership is behind this stance. TPF's leadership would then be 'failing' their membership by accepting a deal which required reps to be paid to PC.

[celtics464]

1. Then that would defeat the purpose of Karma. What goes around comes around, meaning you get punished for your PAST.

2. THey already said thats not acceptable.

Still not making any valid points. even when you tried to spell them out

oneballman seems to disagree with you see his last post.

[celtics464]

Actually, it's been said a number of times that TPF's membership is behind this stance. TPF's leadership would then be 'failing' their membership by accepting a deal which required reps to be paid to PC.

the membership doesnt want to pay reps to PC. its the leaderships responsibility to find a proper method to achieve a conclusion that fits within their memberships desire. its more than possible to achieve both.

[Vanadrin Failing]

the membership doesnt want to pay reps to PC. its the leaderships responsibility to find a proper method to achieve a conclusion that fits within their memberships desire. its more than possible to achieve both.

That may be true, but there's not a lot of room for compromise in that anything short of total removal of rep payments to PC would be unacceptable to TPF and her Membership. It also doesn't sound like there has been much additional negotiation on this matter, though I am of course not privvy to TPF's formal affairs.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Vanadrin Failing

[TwistedRebelDB47]

I'm sure PC is staying well clear of this thread. It won't take much to turn public opinion against them and in favor of TPF.

Nope, just have priorities set in life.

Poison Clan will not be playing for any sympathy or beat around the bush for anything. We fought this war for one reason - to make up for all the times we had been bullied around by TPF while we were a protectorate, while we were allied to a number of their MDP+ partners, and afterwards. Do you know what it's like to be hunted for a year for just wanting to survive? "Accept another member and we will end you" was a common phrase from our friend Slayer. As DC said in one of these threads (didn't realize there were two), we were ready to go out in a blaze of glory last year but instead decided to get to 100% Manhattan Projects for our alliance before doing that. This war conveniently placed itself right when we hit the 90-95% mark. We signed ourselves a blood pact that we would die together rather than never get our revenge. Blame us all you want for the timing, but I'm not complaining.

Rather die on my feet than live on my knees. I'll say it over and over again. That was our theme - so when we surrendered to TPF we knelt with the dagger in our sleeve, biding our time.

It's funny how things get "twisted" (:giggle:) once it gets filtered from conversations into the boards. I've said to every TPF person I enjoy speaking with that I would never take advantage of this situation to wipe TPF clean. I like our rivalry. I look forward to the day they get back at us, and continue that cycle. Mutual destruction is the name of the game (and the only good part of this game).

So before you call us evil, I'd like to hear it directly from someone like Lord Fred, JBone or OBM. Can you say I've been evil at any point in our discussions? Have I been rude, belligerent or an !@#$%^&? Unreasonable? Anything short of cordial?

Also a note that if you plan to put any part of a conversation with me in your signature, please do me the favor of not querying me in the first place.

[Alterego]

1. Then that would defeat the purpose of Karma. What goes around comes around, meaning you get punished for your PAST.

Karma is a lie, they are going after people depending on what way they sided in this war and are ignoring the past of people who sided with them this time simply because thats the way their treaties were activated.

[Kindom of Goon]

Terms are fine, we all know why they were not accepted.

Pride is overrated.

[OneBallMan]

Nope, just have priorities set in life.

Poison Clan will not be playing for any sympathy or beat around the bush for anything. We fought this war for one reason - to make up for all the times we had been bullied around by TPF while we were a protectorate, while we were allied to a number of their MDP+ partners, and afterwards. Do you know what it's like to be hunted for a year for just wanting to survive? "Accept another member and we will end you" was a common phrase from our friend Slayer. As DC said in one of these threads (didn't realize there were two), we were ready to go out in a blaze of glory last year but instead decided to get to 100% Manhattan Projects for our alliance before doing that. This war conveniently placed itself right when we hit the 90-95% mark. We signed ourselves a blood pact that we would die together rather than never get our revenge. Blame us all you want for the timing, but I'm not complaining.

Rather die on my feet than live on my knees. I'll say it over and over again. That was our theme - so when we surrendered to TPF we knelt with the dagger in our sleeve, biding our time.

It's funny how things get "twisted" (:giggle:) once it gets filtered from conversations into the boards. I've said to every TPF person I enjoy speaking with that I would never take advantage of this situation to wipe TPF clean. I like our rivalry. I look forward to the day they get back at us, and continue that cycle. Mutual destruction is the name of the game (and the only good part of this game).

So before you call us evil, I'd like to hear it directly from someone like Lord Fred, JBone or OBM. Can you say I've been evil at any point in our discussions? Have I been rude, belligerent or an !@#$%^&? Unreasonable? Anything short of cordial?

Also a note that if you plan to put any part of a conversation with me in your signature, please do me the favor of not querying me in the first place.

That is very true. Twisted is the bomb. He does things that are in PC's selfish interests, with very little concern, imho for the longterm outcome, and that means that we stand at diametric odds. I loathe what PC have done here, but the ex-TPF members of PC are and will always be my brothers and sisters.

[Vanadrin Failing]

It almost seems to me that it would be best for the other Karma alliances in this situation to come to a peace agreement on their own with TPF and separate themselves from the continued rivalry that it seems both TPF AND PC really want.

This wouldn't be out of some sort of pity for TPF or anything like that, either. Just letting these two continue to do what they seem to be enjoying in their lives on Planet Bob: Beating the snot out of each other.

[Trout]

That is very true. Twisted is the bomb. He does things that are in PC's selfish interests, with very little concern, imho for the longterm outcome, and that means that we stand at diametric odds. I loathe what PC have done here, but the ex-TPF members of PC are and will always be my brothers and sisters.

You're like the mother that I never had <3

coughbellybuttonlintcough

[lakerzz8]

It almost seems to me that it would be best for the other Karma alliances in this situation to come to a peace agreement on their own with TPF and separate themselves from the continued rivalry that it seems both TPF AND PC really want.

This wouldn't be out of some sort of pity for TPF or anything like that, either. Just letting these two continue to do what they seem to be enjoying in their lives on Planet Bob: Beating the snot out of each other.

I believe that was already covered by an MK nation. They will not leave an ally out on the field and get peace for themselves. Just like TPF did not want to leave NPO on the field, why would MK and others leave PC out on the field? Abandoning an ally is abandoning an ally even if you're winning the war.

[Azaghul]

We've discussed reps amounts quite a bit and at no point did PC mention to me or MK that they wanted to add the California reps to their terms and that has not affected the amount TPF will be paying. If anything PC might have some of their reps redirected to California, but that is not an addition to TPF, but a subtraction from PC. PC asked for tech reps while the reps to California are money, which makes it unlikely that they were added on.

Also the reps for the most part were based on a formula of 10K tech or it's money equivalent for every 1mill NS in losses. That's how 20K was arrived at for PC and 180 mill to FoB. MK is asking for less than our losses (about 1.5 mill NS or so) because our losses were less proportionally and we don't need reps as much for rebuilding and because we'd be getting some other reps as well (10K from Echelon), and CCC and NV didn't want reps.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Azaghul