Current NPO War Status?

[Elegarth]

So in essence (combined with the comments of a few others in the NPO) you want to be able to write your own peace terms and have totoal control over what is imposed upon you and how much reps you pay.

You really do not get how wars work.

No ShinRa, and you know better...

We don't want to write them. But we get to decide what we take or not. Simple thing.

You asked for something, we didn't liked it, made a counter offer, you didn't like it.

Does something THAT simple really overcomes your capacity to understand?

We are here, waiting for negotiations to continue.

As per admitting defeat, we already did. We just won't admit exctinction. Period.

[Lord Strider]

Well the comparisons are obvious. Ego mania and suicide sitting in a bunker. But don't give me this concern for anyone nonsense. I will tell you something that really does tick me off about all this stupidity. The ignorant and callous recruiting of new players to this game for nothing other than to play a numbers game designed to drag out the fall. Pulling these innocents into something they know nothing about and sacraficing them for the sake of a number and an ego.

That's players who may have remained in this game given the chance to actually learn it in a an alliance that actually does care. People who will quickly become bored of a game that seems impossible to get anywhere with and be lost to it forever. The total number of players in the game has fallen by several thousand since your numbers game began. This selfish egotistical behaviour is a blight on the entire game.

So basiclly we are still ruining the game even when we are down? Cool, glad we can keep up our evil ways.

[ShinRa]

No ShinRa, and you know better...

We don't want to write them. But we get to decide what we take or not. Simple thing.

You asked for something, we didn't liked it, made a counter offer, you didn't like it.

So, yes you want to be able to write your own surrender terms. I don't recall you giving anyone you fought in any of your previous wars this option, so exactly why are you an exception.

As per admitting defeat, we already did. We just won't admit extinction. Period.

We shall see. So far only your Emperor seems to have admitted defeat, and I as I recall the last time that happened you suddenly changed your mind and decided that only he had lost the war.

And you do not have to admit to extinction, you do not even have to accept it, all you have to do is keep letting your own arrogance and ego drive your actions and continue as you have always done up till now.

Karma shall do the rest.

[ChairmanHal]

Wouldn't be the first person to compare us to Hitler. What is your issue? you have a NPO hate complex with the best of them. Math is math, a good person can bend the numbers to work in their favor. That is what we did and that is what other people did to show that we could pay for them. It all boils down to us feeling that we should get better terms. Is that arrogant? Not by any means. We just want what is best for our people.

Well there *was* that regrettable Dilber picture where he was photoshopped in place of Hitler and Pacifican flags in place of the Nazi ones in an old Nazi propaganda poster...

Be that as it may, the only issue holding up peace at this point, as I understand it, is the matter of the NPO Peace Mode "warriors". NPO to its credit has offered additional cash in lieu of bringing them out of Peace Mode, though the idea was summarily rejected by Karma.

As I have previously stated, Karma owes one thing to NPO at this point: publicly or privately, tell the truth about whether there is a legitimate desire for peace or not.

In lieu of that, Karma can have its cake and eat it too. Well correction--those alliances that aren't currently fighting NPO directly can have their cake and eat it too. Alliances like Ragnarok playing prison guard may think they are in the superior position because they are wearing a uniform and are dutifully standing guard in jail of the prisoner 24/7, but the reality is that the prisoner is also wearing a uniform and also can't leave. No one is the superior in that scenario, only their titles are different.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Donnerjack
No links to Nazi imagery please

[Branimir]

People who say 'NPO should accept the surrender terms' don't seem to understand something.

In my neutral opinion, NPO obviously CAN'T accept the peace because they were no. 1, which gives them a massive ego. The ego stops them from accepting defeat and must continue fighitng. Its that plain simple.

We admitted defeat in this war accepted the fact of it, in the same Imperial decree where we declared Moldavi Doctrine void, apologized to GATO and expressed our point of view in regards to the offered surrender terms to us.

As such your entire argument is completely off. Our ego has absolutely nothing to do with our current course of action. Our survival, does.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Branimir

[Lord Strider]

Well there *was* that regrettable Dilber picture where he was photoshopped in place of Hitler and Pacifican flags in place of the Nazi ones in an old Nazi propaganda poster... [removed link]

Good times there. That is a classic pic.

[Branimir]

Good times there. That is a classic pic.

"Its not fascism when we do it."

Another good oldie,.... Manny fun times had.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Branimir

[Elegarth]

So, yes you want to be able to write your own surrender terms. I don't recall you giving anyone you fought in any of your previous wars this option, so exactly why are you an exception.

We shall see. So far only your Emperor seems to have admitted defeat, and I as I recall the last time that happened you suddenly changed your mind and decided that only he had lost the war.

And you do not have to admit to extinction, you do not even have to accept it, all you have to do is keep letting your own arrogance and ego drive your actions and continue as you have always done up till now.

Karma shall do the rest.

Every single alliance we have fought had the same chance we had: reject the terms. They choose not to. Your point fails.

And about my Emperor, he speaks for me and for Pacifica.

And as per exctintion... You don't get it, right? If we want to stay around, we will. you can't really do nothing to avoid it. You can wage war on us forever, but that does not forces us to go.

Have a nice day, ShinRa. Your non-sense bores me.

[ShinRa]

Every single alliance we have fought had the same chance we had: reject the terms. They choose not to. Your point fails.

The point is that none of them were so deluded as to reject the terms you offered them and attempt to write their own and convince you to accept them.

The point is that you are no exception, you do not deserve to dictate your own surrender and quite frankly you’re being let of easy for all that the NPO have done.

And about my Emperor, he speaks for me and for Pacifica.

Indeed, the last time it was stated afterwards that he only spoke for himself.

And as per exctintion... You don't get it, right? If we want to stay around, we will. you can't really do nothing to avoid it. You can wage war on us forever, but that does not forces us to go.

So, you are willing to stay in a game when you have repeatedly tried to turn it into your own personal empire, are the closest thing the game has to Nazi Germany and now have a vast superpower what wants you gone for all that you have done.

Even with the destruction of the Hegemony and One Vision you still don’t take a hint, you have lost and you have nothing left to stay fore, the NPO is obsessed with gaining simply infra, tech and meaningless statistics while crushing the communities of others. You’re still part of this game because you’re utterly obsessed with some meaningless crusade for power which in the long term, means absolutely nothing.

Edited July 16, 2009 by ShinRa

[hawk11]

So, you are willing to stay in a game when you have repeatedly tried to turn it into your own personal empire, are the closest thing the game has to Nazi Germany and now have a vast superpower what wants you gone for all that you have done.

Even with the destruction of the Hegemony and One Vision you still don’t take a hint, you have lost and you have nothing left to stay fore, the NPO is obsessed with gaining simply infra, tech and meaningless statistics while crushing the communities of others. You’re still part of this game because you’re utterly obsessed with some meaningless crusade for power which in the long term, means absolutely nothing.

Do we even need to merit this with a response? I don't think anything I can say will wipe away the swastika from my arm.

[drakealexanderleorn]

This war HAS gone on for a while and when i joined i was told about the war. I do believe we shall not go so far as extermination for anyone. If you truly want us to surrender, find a non-biased person to come to an agreement for the surrender terms. In the end, we shall not leave and we shall not declare ourselves dead.

[Qazzian]

The point is that none of them were so deluded as to reject the terms you offered them and attempt to write their own and convince you to accept them.

The point is they decided the peace terms were a better alternative to war. The peace terms we've been given don't fit that criteria. Period. End of discussion.

So, you are willing to stay in a game when you have repeatedly tried to turn it into your own personal empire, are the closest thing the game has to Nazi Germany and now have a vast superpower what wants you gone for all that you have done.

Oh Godwin, you come too soon.

What we have done isn't unique. We aren't the only ones to fight alliances, causing them to disband. We aren't the only ones who installed viceroys. And since when has Karma's official stance changed to support our disbandment and being run out of the Planet Bob for good? I take it you're now their official spokesperson since you have that inside scoop? If that's the case, why should we EVER feel inclined to bring our banks out, if it's now been stated that the purpose of Karma is to destroy us and make sure we never return. Besides, if you do exactly what you claim to punish us for, shouldn't you all take your leave as well?

Even with the destruction of the Hegemony and One Vision you still don’t take a hint, you have lost and you have nothing left to stay fore, the NPO is obsessed with gaining simply infra, tech and meaningless statistics while crushing the communities of others. You’re still part of this game because you’re utterly obsessed with some meaningless crusade for power which in the long term, means absolutely nothing.

You post alot for a meaningless game, you know that right? Edited July 16, 2009 by Qazzian

[Vladimir]

you [...] are the closest thing the game has to Nazi Germany and now have a vast superpower what wants you gone for all that you have done.

Just once I'd like to be Stalin's Russia or Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia. Hell, I'd even take Amin's Uganda or Hoxha's Albania. Is it really too much to ask?

[Glen MoP]

To make it that much easier for you, this is what you need to read:

An Economic Analysis of Reparations

A Logistic Analysis of 90% War Mode Compliance

Why Your Alliance's Economics Don't Work on My Alliance

Why Karma Gave the Terms They Did; They Want War without the War

Those numbers probably aren't accurate these days. With the addition of the $10M Destroy Money spy op, a nation is looking at losing an extra $20M a day. (In a curb stomp, all but the very most incompetent alliances ought to be able to muster very tech heavy nations to ensure those spy ops go through.) Over 14 days, that's an extra $280M in damage over 14 days.

[ShinRa]

The point is they decided the peace terms were a better alternative to war. The peace terms we've been given don't fit that criteria. Period. End of discussion.

So simply reject the peace terms and die out with some decency, don’t try to weasel your way out of this by writing your own preferred way you wish to surrender. You simply do not deserve it.

What we have done isn't unique. We aren't the only ones to fight alliances, causing them to disband.

Name someone who’s disbanded more alliances. Name someone who’s invented their own ‘Francoism’ and now treats it like a religion. Name someone who has backstabbed more alliances and tried to drive them out of Cybernations by refusing to acknowledge any offer of surrender, or by endlessly warring against an alliance under your protection for two years.

We aren't the only ones who installed viceroys.

No, you invented them and you used them the most.

And since when has Karma's official stance changed to support our disbandment and being run out of the Planet Bob for good?

You misunderstand, I said they wanted you gone. I’m the one which wants you gone for good.

I take it you're now their official spokesperson since you have that inside scoop?

When did I ever claim such a thing.

If that's the case, why should we EVER feel inclined to bring our banks out, if it's now been stated that the purpose of Karma is to destroy us and make sure we never return.

If you wish to know, you should bring your banks out of peace mode to move on. To allow Cybernations to continue and for new alliances to rise and fall and new powers to clash against one another,

your time is past and clearly people have had enough of your actions and what you have done to this game.

You can keep fighting a endless war which will lead to simple stagnation of one side fighting the other. It will lead to destruction of Pacifica either way, you can remain your stubborn prideful selves and stand screaming at your enemy until the end or you can choose to accept your fate.

You post alot for a meaningless game, you know that right?

I said that your bids for power were meaningless, I never said that Cybernations was a meaningless game.

Just once I'd like to be Stalin's Russia or Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia. Hell, I'd even take Amin's Uganda or Hoxha's Albania. Is it really too much to ask?

Then by all means call yourselves that or start making your walls of text in the style of one of those individuals.

One malevolent power hungry movement is as good as another.

[Gn0xious Jr]

Can we please ALL agree on the following?

Karma offered terms

NPO rejected said terms

NPO counter-offered

Karma felt said counter-offer was not enough, and rejected

NPO decided that given the choice of the terms or war, they choose war

We are now in a stagnant war, until negotiations are underway again

Karma can, in NO way, shape, or form, FORCE NPO to agree to peace terms. Furthermore, NPO is under no obligation but to themselves to determine if the peace terms are acceptable to them. Until they feel that the peace terms are in their best interest, when compared to war, then war will continue. Several NPO'ers have pointed out that they are still at war because it is their decision.

Bickering over this is futile, as there is little that will be accomplished.

If either leadership wants peace, they need to continue seeking a resolution through their channels.

edit:

I've said it before, but it appears it bears repeating... there are several very VOCAL people on the OWF. And unfortunately, they get the attention from everyone else. It is also unfortunate that they are automatically assumed to be the "voice" of the alliance/bloc/movement/whatever simply because they are voicing their opinion. Leave the "official" message of the alliance/bloc/movement/whatever to the leadership. In the case of Karma, i'd wager the best bet is to work with the leaders of the alliances within the Karma collective.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Gn0xious Jr

[HeinousOne]

Pretty much.

As far as I was aware, they were at the stage where Karma had put their collective foot down and told NPO to accept the terms offered or face eternal war.

You are not aware of as much as you think you are then.

Seems to me that the problem here is arrogance.

You are right but you probably dont realize where the arrogance is actually coming from right now. It's ok because you aren't supposed to know.

So in essence (combined with the comments of a few others in the NPO) you want to be able to write your own peace terms and have totoal control over what is imposed upon you and how much reps you pay.

You really do not get how wars work.

You don't even care if your posts are rational anymore do you? They denied one single term and those fighting NPO havn't yet been able to agree on anything hence why they have not been able to test NPO's true intentions. Due to Karma's lack of action all we know is that NPO just didn't like that term. You are extremely gung ho on trying to paint the situation completely different then it is.

Well there *was* that regrettable Dilber picture where he was photoshopped in place of Hitler and Pacifican flags in place of the Nazi ones in an old Nazi propaganda poster...

Be that as it may, the only issue holding up peace at this point, as I understand it, is the matter of the NPO Peace Mode "warriors". NPO to its credit has offered additional cash in lieu of bringing them out of Peace Mode, though the idea was summarily rejected by Karma.

As I have previously stated, Karma owes one thing to NPO at this point: publicly or privately, tell the truth about whether there is a legitimate desire for peace or not.

In lieu of that, Karma can have its cake and eat it too. Well correction--those alliances that aren't currently fighting NPO directly can have their cake and eat it too. Alliances like Ragnarok playing prison guard may think they are in the superior position because they are wearing a uniform and are dutifully standing guard in jail of the prisoner 24/7, but the reality is that the prisoner is also wearing a uniform and also can't leave. No one is the superior in that scenario, only their titles are different.

Great job people, you have brought the day upon us when Hal posts more sensible then 90% of the posters in a thread.

You misunderstand, I said they wanted you gone. I’m the one which wants you gone for good.

This explains why you are so gung ho on trying to insult the NPO into accepting terms they think will destroy their alliance. Thank you

Can we please ALL agree on the following?

Karma offered terms

NPO rejected said terms

NPO counter-offered

Karma felt said counter-offer was not enough, and rejected

NPO decided that given the choice of the terms or war, they choose war

We are now in a stagnant war, until negotiations are underway again

Karma can, in NO way, shape, or form, FORCE NPO to agree to peace terms. Furthermore, NPO is under no obligation but to themselves to determine if the peace terms are acceptable to them. Until they feel that the peace terms are in their best interest, when compared to war, then war will continue. Several NPO'ers have pointed out that they are still at war because it is their decision.

Bickering over this is futile, as there is little that will be accomplished.

If either leadership wants peace, they need to continue seeking a resolution through their channels.

You cannot bring rationality to those who simply do not care to be such. Their vision is filled with red and no amount of intelligent discourse will bring them out of that state. They will throw all attempts to make people think they are the moral and ethical front out the window because since NPO did horrible things to people that makes it ok for them to do horrible things.

[Gn0xious Jr]

You are right but you probably dont realize where the arrogance is actually coming from right now. It's ok because you aren't supposed to know.

I'd wager a fair amount that there is arrogance on either side.

You cannot bring rationality to those who simply do not care to be such. Their vision is filled with red and no amount of intelligent discourse will bring them out of that state. They will throw all attempts to make people think they are the moral and ethical front out the window because since NPO did horrible things to people that makes it ok for them to do horrible things.

I can try dammit

For those that are blinded by red, and post/practice politics based solely on hatred and revenge... good luck to you in the future...

[HeinousOne]

I'd wager a fair amount that there is arrogance on either side.

I can try dammit

For those that are blinded by red, and post/practice politics based solely on hatred and revenge... good luck to you in the future...

Of course arrogance is on both sides, some folks though try to just show half the picture. That is propaganda. They actually do not like it when you try and show them the entire picture. It is a very interesting state of mind, very regressive.

Some folks do not understand that you are supposed to learn from history and grow, instead they wish to simply relive it.

[Sande]

OK. This topic is full of NPO propaganda, flaming and hate and pointless posts.

I am fully certains that NPO is lying about it's monetary situation. I am sure you can pay the reparations easily within 6 to 9 months.

How do I prove it? I have an idea.

We as Karma will make a database of every single nation that will have to pay the reps. We will spy each and every one of them in one day, then we will see how much money, days of uncollected taxes etc you have. Then we estimate the war losses for every single nation out there (The equations will be about 20% worse than the average for your sakes ). If we have all these numbers, we can finally prove for once and for all wether you can or can not pay the reps.

Another thing, I copied the full list of NPO nations from the beginning of the war. I'm not going to hide it, the link is here.

I have seen many of ex-NPOers in other alliances. Sparta is one of the most interesting of them. I looked at the top 200 at that time and I found about 10 nations in other alliances. If these nations return to NPO after the war or start aiding them, I'd say the alliance it's in, is fully allowed to give him a single ZI for being a deceiving !@#$%^& like that and seeking for shelter, scared of pixels.

[HeinousOne]

OK. This topic is full of NPO propaganda, flaming and hate and pointless posts.

I am fully certains that NPO is lying about it's monetary situation. I am sure you can pay the reparations easily within 6 to 9 months.

How do I prove it? I have an idea.

We as Karma will make a database of every single nation that will have to pay the reps. We will spy each and every one of them in one day, then we will see how much money, days of uncollected taxes etc you have. Then we estimate the war losses for every single nation out there (The equations will be about 20% worse than the average for your sakes ). If we have all these numbers, we can finally prove for once and for all wether you can or can not pay the reps.

Another thing, I copied the full list of NPO nations from the beginning of the war. I'm not going to hide it, the link is here.

I have seen many of ex-NPOers in other alliances. Sparta is one of the most interesting of them. I looked at the top 200 at that time and I found about 10 nations in other alliances. If these nations return to NPO after the war or start aiding them, I'd say the alliance it's in, is fully allowed to give him a single ZI for being a deceiving !@#$%^& like that and seeking for shelter, scared of pixels.

Another half picture. Why dont you try changing your first line to something like this. "OK. This topic is full of propaganda, flaming and hate and pointless posts."

See that little change? That way you wouldn't appear to be acting so IC in an OOC thread. Because the NPO is certainly not the only ones in here passing out IC propaganda. Just look at the propagandic things you are stating about intentions of nations that you dont know.

Why would the NPO agree to allow you to spy their nations? They are at war with you. I think the problem is that those that are winning really dont know what its like to win and are just learning how to handle winning in this war. So far it is a failing grade but I think some folks are turning it around.

People like yourself are going to be eating your words soon enough.

[drakealexanderleorn]

Okay, hypothetical situation here. Let's say NPO agreed to any repremands in any terms of surrender, what of nations that joined, or are applicants, during peace talks or when they both agreed? What of those who are to new or week, the ones who only have a few levels of infra or tech due to countless wars or just starting?

[Glen MoP]

Another thing, I copied the full list of NPO nations from the beginning of the war. I'm not going to hide it, the link is here.

I see me! #42!

I used to be #42. (NS: 76,676.025 Infra:11,640.00 Tech:4,828.10) I am now #87 (NS:15,462.530 Infra:2,640.49 Tech:991.67), which is pretty sad. I'd be near ZI if VE hadn't sent me $3M in FA the same day my wars ended. (Thanks, VE!)

I'll save you the spying, though. My warchest is empty. I have infra because you guys sent me money (<3 VE) and I was able to buy up infra before I back collected.

I've lost over three billion dollars worth of infra. Billion. I'm totally at a loss as to how you think we're going to rebuild to our former power in less than a few years. If the war ended with no reps at all, much less the $8 billion and 300k tech we counter-offered, my nation alone wouldn't be in a position to be where it was for another two years, and in the mean time everyone ELSE will have moved two years beyond where they are today. I will never be back to the relative position of power I once was in. I'm okay with that, but it doesn't make me less baffled by the people saying that I have to be kept down. I *am* down and simple economics will keep me there.

Some Fun Facts:

In the old days 15k NS would make me #443 in the alliance.

The current #443 would have been #797 in the old days.

The current #40 would have been #224 in the old days.

The current #224 would have been #725 in the old days.

[hawk11]

Can we please ALL agree on the following?

Karma offered terms

NPO rejected said terms

NPO counter-offered

Karma felt said counter-offer was not enough, and rejected

NPO decided that given the choice of the terms or war, they choose war

We are now in a stagnant war, until negotiations are underway again

Karma can, in NO way, shape, or form, FORCE NPO to agree to peace terms. Furthermore, NPO is under no obligation but to themselves to determine if the peace terms are acceptable to them. Until they feel that the peace terms are in their best interest, when compared to war, then war will continue. Several NPO'ers have pointed out that they are still at war because it is their decision.

Bickering over this is futile, as there is little that will be accomplished.

If either leadership wants peace, they need to continue seeking a resolution through their channels.

I don't have anything clever to say about this, for once. People should read it.

[Tautology]

I don't have anything clever to say about this, for once.

I tried not to smile at this, but I failed. Nice one.