The GMs Court

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='03 April 2010 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1270270106' post='2246290']
I dunno.. a meeting should be posted on the forums with private tags. Think about it.. how else can someone spy if the meeting isn't posted in public? My mole that I planted in so in so's government can't be used to eavesdrop.

Pretty fine line here about all of this.
[/quote]

Yet, even without Rp'd moles, we still have people responding to Private plans, albeit in subtle ways that can be easily played off as 'What? This is not a response to your plan, a nation that had an enemy bordering it would normally bolster its border forces. Its a common sense thing to do!'

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='03 April 2010 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1270271451' post='2246306']
Yet, even without Rp'd moles, we still have people responding to Private plans, albeit in subtle ways that can be easily played off as 'What? This is not a response to your plan, a nation that had an enemy bordering it would normally bolster its border forces. Its a common sense thing to do!'
[/quote]

If they have satellites, they'd notice troop movements. Example: North Korea starts beefing up it's troop count along their NK/SK border. South Korea is gonna notice it and they're gonna be pissed (and beef up their border troops too). Your example would constitute metagaming because there is no indication the private meeting will do anything. If the nation beefing up border security wants it to be IC, the other nation can assume they're preparing an invasion, etc.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Hey guys, the justification for RP planes being based off the max you can have IG...the reasons given (the relative inexpense of them, that they can all be bought at once if necessary, etc) also apply to Cruise Missiles. Now I know IG Cruise missiles apply to non-nuclear WMD's, special weapons, etc, but the idea's the same...can we make them max IG instead of what you do have IG?

[iamthey]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='03 April 2010 - 05:48 AM' timestamp='1270270106' post='2246290']
I dunno.. a meeting should be posted on the forums with private tags. Think about it.. how else can someone spy if the meeting isn't posted in public? My mole that I planted in so in so's government can't be used to eavesdrop.

Pretty fine line here about all of this.
[/quote]

The problem is though 90% of the time people don't actually have any legitimate RP for knowing (with spy roles ect), and yet they make adjustments to their RP and strategy based on what they shouldn't know anyway. Or people will do a spy op based on what they know OOC rather than based on legitimate IC suspicion. Beyond that the reality is, if they can't do an IC meeting in PM, they will do it secretly in OOC and just assume the meeting took place (example a treaty with no meeting or associated Rp'd motivation). In the same way if someone wants to have a treaty that isn't disclosed to the community they will just pull it out after the fact and say it was signed in secret. Means for surprising the community already exist, this would just create more legitimate IC mechanisms for doing so. Finally a lot of people are doing IC meetings through the PM system as it is, and I don't see anyway to really prevent it as the meetings themselves are not really 'required' anyway.

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='03 April 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1270327641' post='2246797']
Hey guys, the justification for RP planes being based off the max you can have IG...the reasons given (the relative inexpense of them, that they can all be bought at once if necessary, etc) also apply to Cruise Missiles. Now I know IG Cruise missiles apply to non-nuclear WMD's, special weapons, etc, but the idea's the same...can we make them max IG instead of what you do have IG?
[/quote]

I'm not really sure what the present norm is anyway. I've always considered it to be max personally, but I guess you don't think thats what the status quo is?

Edited April 4, 2010 by iamthey

[Centurius]

It's been actual amount in-game, mostly because of the intensity of the weapons they're used for.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Centurius' date='04 April 2010 - 01:17 AM' timestamp='1270340230' post='2247051']
It's been actual amount in-game, mostly because of the intensity of the weapons they're used for.
[/quote]

I say keep it IG = RP...

[Sargun II]

I concur. If you want to use special CMs, pay the price for them. It's not like they're standard use in war or vital to the success in most wars in the first place.

[Centurius]

Agreed fully

[iamthey]

All good points.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Sargun, if people should pay the price for them, why should they not pay the price for airplanes? Or tanks? Or soldiers? Having cruise missiles increases your nation strength the same way possessing a tank or soldier does, and it inflicts more damage than a single tank or soldier would, so really, it can be argued that the missile is more critical to winning the war than them, in a roundabout way.

I just believe we should be consistent, or find another justification for max IG planes than "they're inexpensive and can be bought all at once," because as I said, the same is true of IG cruise missiles.

[Sarah Tintagyl]

[quote name='Subtleknifewielder' date='04 April 2010 - 06:20 AM' timestamp='1270358431' post='2247285']
Sargun, if people should pay the price for them, why should they not pay the price for airplanes? Or tanks? Or soldiers? Having cruise missiles increases your nation strength the same way possessing a tank or soldier does, and it inflicts more damage than a single tank or soldier would, so really, it can be argued that the missile is more critical to winning the war than them, in a roundabout way.

I just believe we should be consistent, or find another justification for max IG planes than "they're inexpensive and can be bought all at once," because as I said, the same is true of IG cruise missiles.
[/quote]

Personally, I think Planes should be IG = RP, navies, hell, I'd even go as far as soldiers and tanks IG = RP. But I understand the reason for max and stuff. A great way around this would be, you have to create actual RP behind the construction of your military arms, if you do that and then say max, I wouldn't really care as much. But people just pulling stuff out of thin air that's not fair either.

[iamthey]

I think the real problem with CM's is that unlike planes, tanks, soldiers, nukes, and ships; there are is little in place to limit or curb abuse. With respect to nukes, obviously there are steep IG mechanisms in place to control who gets them and how long it will take to acquire them, with ship, soldiers, planes, and tanks tech level acts to curb their relative power and features. However CM's are specialized weapons and or non-nuclear weapons of mass destruction with ambiguously defined parameters and little to no controls on their relative magnitude or scope. 1 CM could be a special conventional bomb, or a super stealth cruise missile but it could also be a non-nuclear EMP, a small pox dispersal system, or something like VX nerve gas; the possibilities are limitless. As bio-weapons, chemical weapons, and so on have been around for about as long as warfare has been conducted, and a brand new CNer can theoretically purchase 50 CM's right off the bat there is wide possibility for abuse, and little to ensure balance. In gamewise someone with 1k NS shouldn't be able to have 50 chemical weapons which are just as good as those of a person with 100k NS unfortunately- though that is presently the case.

While I see a point in that we should be consistent, something does need to exist to preserve some semblance of balance and prevent :lolerp:. Perhaps allow it to be set at max, but tie what you can do with those 50 slots to the tech tiering levels or some particular wonder like NRL/WRC (obviously not SDC as only a few nations have that, and the point is to lock out the very small nations from having WMD's while allowing most midlevel-high nations to do what the present system allows)?

EDIT: Sarah at present you do need to at least RP some sort of program. The real control at present hasn't been that people don't have 50 CM's IG, its been that they either are too lazy to RP special weapons, or they don't know that you can.

Edited April 4, 2010 by iamthey

[Executive Minister]

To be honest, an aircraft >> CM special weapons system.

Why? In most cases, the weapons you've outlined require a mode of 'dispersal' or other means of deployment. No sense having 50 Daisy Cutters or Thermobaric bombs without the planes to drop them.

If planes are given at max, then CM's sure as hell should.

All of those things you've mentioned, Tactical EMP, Stealth Cruise Missile, Daisy Cutter, TBB, Bioweapons are not as deadly as a well used Squadron of IC planes.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='04 April 2010 - 06:52 PM' timestamp='1270399933' post='2247598']
To be honest, an aircraft >> CM special weapons system.

Why? In most cases, the weapons you've outlined require a mode of 'dispersal' or other means of deployment. No sense having 50 Daisy Cutters or Thermobaric bombs without the planes to drop them.

If planes are given at max, then CM's sure as hell should.

All of those things you've mentioned, Tactical EMP, Stealth Cruise Missile, Daisy Cutter, TBB, [b]Bioweapons[/b] are not as deadly as a well used Squadron of IC planes.
[/quote]

There is a reason they banned those completely in real life, they can not be controlled and are when deployed well even better than nukes.

[Subtleknifewielder]

[quote name='Centurius' date='04 April 2010 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1270402572' post='2247624']
There is a reason they banned those completely in real life, they can not be controlled and are when deployed well even better than nukes.
[/quote]
However, the other things he mentioned aren't. I support IAT's proposition that they be limited according to some other IG factor--tech, a wonder, etc. Maybe even both.

The old chemical weapons, to which there exist plenty of counters today, and some of the very, [i]very[/i] early Thermobaric Weapons, should be permitted with a moderate amount of research.

When the appropriate amount of tech (somewhere from Modern to First World) is reached stronger thermobaric weapons should be permitted.

The National Research Lab, I think, since it allowes you to develop cures for common diseases, should allow you to make biological weapons to a limited degree, but NOT for every missile, say, for half or maybe even only a fifth.

The Weapons Research Complex of course allows you to increase the fraction that is biological and allows for even stronger chemical and biological weapons.

And of course, if you really want to vary things, the Scientific Development Center can make pretty much all these things even more powerful.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Centurius' date='04 April 2010 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1270402572' post='2247624']
There is a reason they banned those completely in real life, they can not be controlled and are when deployed well even better than nukes.
[/quote]

Way to completely miss the point and I'd take a nuke over anthrax any day.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Executive Minister

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='04 April 2010 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1270407901' post='2247713']
Way to completely miss the point and I'd take a nuke over anthrax any day.
[/quote]

You can survive anthrax, you can't survive a gigantic nuclear explosion.

ehhh

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Sargun' date='04 April 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1270411115' post='2247763']
You can survive anthrax, you can't survive a gigantic nuclear explosion.

ehhh
[/quote]

I was referring to my nation owning a nuke as opposed to a deployment system of anthrax, durrr.

[iamthey]

[quote name='Sargun' date='04 April 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1270411115' post='2247763']
You can survive anthrax, you can't survive a gigantic nuclear explosion.

ehhh
[/quote]

Anthrax has a very rapid incubation period, and once symptoms present its generally fatal. If you catch it early its treatable, but in the midst of total war and a multi-citywide infection theres probably no way to really manage it effectively. Not to mention it can be spread after a subject expires; so the effects of the attack could still ripple through a population well after the initial incident. So personally I'd rather be in a nation attacked by nuclear weapons than a well planned bio-weapons attack. (Of course an anthrax attack isn't nearly as bad as say small pox.)

[Centurius]

[quote name='iamthey' date='04 April 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1270415928' post='2247845']
Anthrax has a very rapid incubation period, and once symptoms present its generally fatal. If you catch it early its treatable, but in the midst of total war and a multi-citywide infection theres probably no way to really manage it effectively. Not to mention it can be spread after a subject expires; so the effects of the attack could still ripple through a population well after the initial incident. So personally I'd rather be in a nation attacked by nuclear weapons than a well planned bio-weapons attack. (Of course an anthrax attack isn't nearly as bad as say small pox.)
[/quote]

Or ebola.

[Captain Enema]

Or dandruff.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' date='04 April 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1270430351' post='2248143']
Or dandruff.
[/quote]

Or crabs...

[The FSM]

...or stupid? Stupid is transferred by contact y'know

Edited April 5, 2010 by The Flying Scotsman

[JerreyRough]

The most powerful of these bio weapons can just be a replacement for a nuke; of course the weapon would depend on how powerful you are, possibly requiring a GM to allow you to have it (they are gamer masters). Or make another strange formula to complicate things further.

[iamthey]

When I suggested it I was just thinking...

Third World Tech: Can't use CM's as any sort of WMD (EMP/ or Bio/Chemical/radiological weapon with any wide scale of effect)
Modern Tech + First world Tech: Can utilize CM's as WMD's.


Or no NRL = no non-nuclear WMD's

Or no WRC = no non-nuclear WMD's

Something fairly simple which preserves the open nature of the present system without too many confusing formulas or rules. And of course the design of the weapons themselves would be tied to tech so you couldn't use a modern thermobaric weapon with third world tech.

Edited April 5, 2010 by iamthey