Poaching from our ranks- NSO

[ramneta]

Fourth, obviously this is being made into a bigger deal than is really warranted or justified. Poaching implies some form of proprietary position in regards to an alliance's membership. I believe that to be an erroneous assumption. Nations volunteer to join an alliance. Once they join they voluntarily agree to follow certain rules or chains of command but they are never beholden to that alliance beyond their willingness to reside there. If they choose to listen to some rambling commentary via a Private Message sent to their nation then that is their right and they are wholly capable of "jumping ship" at any time they wish.

He does like to leave us hanging, doesn't he?

Then how do you explain the insults against my alliance? Was this a simple recruitment PM?

The respect you show others is the respect you show yourself. At least in my mind. And you show none.

Edit: for the record: your assumptions are correct. No one left our alliance, and if they will they will certainly not go to NSO. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Edited July 3, 2009 by ramneta

[IronSoldier820]

There are three actions that are not acceptable under any circumstances, any time. Those actions include spying on an alliance (not the in-game kind), going nuclear rogue while wearing an alliance affiliation to get said alliance in trouble, and recruiting members from another alliance.

All three of these have led to war under previous circumstances, so it's not like this isn't a valid reason to go to war. And from what I'm reading, both the New Polar Order and the New Sith Order want war. Personally I'm not in league with either side, but I can't see why else you would openly taunt a neutral alliance that tried their best to sort this out diplomatically. If one of your members tries to "vulture" off members from another alliance and he gets caught, you don't say "oh well it's no reason to go to war." You say oops, my bad. At least apologize, or have the common decency to stand up and respond when they ask you what's going on.

Heck, if I recall one of our members pulled off some unofficial recruiting of members of GDA back when we were in the Karma War. We didn't talk down to GDA and tell them that it was their fault for being on the side they were, that if their members left for our alliance then it was the fault of their leaders. We apologized as we were in the wrong, because it is never okay to poach members. I don't care who you are and who your allies are, that is never okay.

I have never seen so many people try to disguise poaching as something acceptable. This thread is filthy.

[flak attack]

Then how do you explain the insults against my alliance? Was this a simple recruitment thread?

The respect you show others is the respect you show yourself. At least in my mind.

You're combining quotes there, son.

And from what I'm reading, both the New Polar Order and the New Sith Order want war.

Hold on there, I've seen nothing from Polar saying they want war. tLC, maybe, but not Polar.

Edited July 3, 2009 by flak attack

[James Wilson]

I don't see anyone talking about asshat awards

Maybe not the awards part of it, but I think the asshat part goes nicely...

[Ivan Moldavi]

There are three actions that are not acceptable under any circumstances, any time. Those actions include spying on an alliance (not the in-game kind), going nuclear rogue while wearing an alliance affiliation to get said alliance in trouble, and recruiting members from another alliance.

All three of these have led to war under previous circumstances, so it's not like this isn't a valid reason to go to war. And from what I'm reading, both the New Polar Order and the New Sith Order want war. Personally I'm not in league with either side, but I can't see why else you would openly taunt a neutral alliance that tried their best to sort this out diplomatically. If one of your members tries to "vulture" off members from another alliance and he gets caught, you don't say "oh well it's no reason to go to war." You say oops, my bad. At least apologize, or have the common decency to stand up and respond when they ask you what's going on.

Heck, if I recall one of our members pulled off some unofficial recruiting of members of GDA back when we were in the Karma War. We didn't talk down to GDA and tell them that it was their fault for being on the side they were, that if their members left for our alliance then it was the fault of their leaders. We apologized as we were in the wrong, because it is never okay to poach members. I don't care who you are and who your allies are, that is never okay.

I have never seen so many people try to disguise poaching as something acceptable. This thread is filthy.

Could you direct me to the place where those three rules are posted?

[Tromp]

Interesting, this situation is...

[Griff]

Maybe not the awards part of it, but I think the asshat part goes nicely...

Well then change the name

[Style #386]

Wow, 25 pages and I haven't even posted yet. Funny.

Well, I can't be bothered to read 25 pages over this. It isn't that important.

First, I authorized the message. Period. Me.

Second, I didn't actually expect anyone to come over from it so technically it would just be more of a stab at the alliances that perpetrate and support the Great Lie than poaching.

Third, I have never stated that alliances can not recruit from the NSO. Feel free.

Fourth, obviously this is being made into a bigger deal than is really warranted or justified. Poaching implies some form of proprietary position in regards to an alliance's membership. I believe that to be an erroneous assumption. Nations volunteer to join an alliance. Once they join they voluntarily agree to follow certain rules or chains of command but they are never beholden to that alliance beyond their willingness to reside there. If they choose to listen to some rambling commentary via a Private Message sent to their nation then that is their right and they are wholly capable of "jumping ship" at any time they wish.

Those that go on and on about this being an attack on their sovereignty are really reaching.

So we can now safely assume that no NSO apology will be forthcoming?

Edited July 3, 2009 by Style 386

[Electron Sponge]

And from what I'm reading, both the New Polar Order and the New Sith Order want war.

Where are you reading that? It's certainly not anywhere in this thread.

Hold on there, I've seen nothing from Polar saying they want war. tLC, maybe, but not Polar.

I defy you to find anywhere where I've said this merited war. I've said the exact opposite in fact. I speak for tLC. Our official stance is that this should be solved diplomatically and privately, without uninvolved parties adding their two cents.

[bart416]

I'm not seeing where there was an admission that this was an act of aggression. I see accusations of it being an act of aggression. It seems that people are putting words into NSO leadership's mouths here.

Member poaching is considered to be a hostile action by quite a large fraction of CN it seems. We could do a poll about this if you don't believe me...

Big deal that NSO did this. If members leave to join their alliance

its the failure of your alliance's leadership not theirs.

So if an alliance starts poaching NPO members you're fine with that?

I would like to take this moment to once again applaud the GOP. They handled the situation well considering they are far smaller than TDO. Despite the difference in size (and, therefore, military might) they came to us in private channels and earned an apology, rather than trying to grandstand for political points.

If NSO considers it poor conduct in general then NSO would apologize to all alliances and not just one.

and I am disputing that they admitted that this was an act of war against anyone.

I don't think it matters much if NSO considers this an act of war. It's up to the other alliances to cast their judgment about these actions.

[WcaesarD]

Hold on there, I've seen nothing from Polar saying they want war. tLC, maybe, but not Polar.

I think that Grub's post implied they stand behind their allies. There is no doubt in my mind that if TDO were to declare, NpO and the rest of Frostbite would be there to defend a war that NSO seems to be trying to start.

[Kowalski]

There are three actions that are not acceptable under any circumstances, any time. Those actions include spying on an alliance (not the in-game kind), going nuclear rogue while wearing an alliance affiliation to get said alliance in trouble, and recruiting members from another alliance.

That was the old CN, this is the new "fun" CN.

[Ivan Moldavi]

So we can now safely assume that no NSO apology will be forthcoming?

Actually, from what I have been told an apology has already been issued to certain parties that recognized this for what it was, a stunt that was admittedly in poor taste for the current political climate, but a stunt just the same.

Those that wish to escalate this into something more and have decided to come here crying can get a tissue from me if they want but that is about it.

[Drostan]

It looks like their fairly earnest attempt succeeded. Who do you think they were talking to in the private talks? lol TDO wanted to talk directly to Moldavi, which really isn't something that happens often as he doesn't use that medium of communication as regularly as some people. He wasn't available so they got the highest ranking people that were around. I'm not sure why that's a problem.

I never said TDO didn't try to negotiate - what I am saying is that TDO is mischaracterizing NSO's actions in the talks as hostile and disrespectful, and are blatantly lying about NSO admitting that this was some sort of act of aggression.

So as not to put too fine a point on this, it seems that TDO is bent out of shape because GOP got an apology and they didn't. It seem to be less about something the Sith did and more "what about me?"

Yes, but back a while ago (no more searching for me, thanks) I believe it was Heft who in part justified a lack of apology on the grounds that TDO decided to bandstand instead of negotiate and I am merely showing that TDO appears to have tried to go through proper channels to address the issue.

I am interested that you mentioned the GOP apology. What is it that TDO failed to do that the GOP succeeded in that earned an apology (though GOP's apology is alluded to I have not seen an actual announcement)? I am not saying that Ivan is free to apologize or not apologize to whomever he likes, but I can understand completely TDO's frustration and outrage in this matter.

Though NSO may claim that poaching is not an aggressive act it is clear that many other people feel quite differently. Do we really want to promote the practice of mass recruitment from other alliances? I know that I don't. I am surprised so many people apparently do.

[IronSoldier820]

Ivan don't play the ignorant card. You know very well what I'm talking about. In an e-lawyer sense, we both know that the only rules set by Cyber Nations are the ones set by the admins. But we also both know that there are rules we have set amongst ourselves and we've seen them enforced time and time again. These are the silent agreements we've made that help us all come to a mutual understanding of who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

Tell me an alliance has never been punished for endorsing spying on another one, tell me a nuclear rogue never caused more trouble than he was worth, and tell me that an alliance poaching another alliance's members never did any harm. You've been around for a long time Ivan, and so have I. We've both played on the diplomatic front, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Style #386]

Actually, from what I have been told an apology has already been issued to certain parties that recognized this for what it was, a stunt that was admittedly in poor taste for the current political climate, but a stunt just the same.

Those that wish to escalate this into something more and have decided to come here crying can get a tissue from me if they want but that is about it.

No need to get so sensitive; it was a question for clarity's sake. The OP demanded an apology, and I assumed, erroneously perhaps, that were one issued, it would be in this thread (or at least mentioned here).

Edited July 3, 2009 by Style 386

[flak attack]

I defy you to find anywhere where I've said this merited war. I've said the exact opposite in fact. I speak for tLC. Our official stance is that this should be solved diplomatically and privately, without uninvolved parties adding their two cents.

Sorry, my statement was more of the idea that you're willing to fight for them, not that you want it.

[Proxian Empire]

I think that Grub's post implied they stand behind their allies. There is no doubt in my mind that if TDO were to declare, NpO and the rest of Frostbite would be there to defend a war that NSO seems to be trying to start.

No where has any member of Frostbite leadership declared any intent to start a war. By treaty we are of course expected and required to defend our allies, as any member of a defensive bloc would be. Our intent is to deescalate this situation through diplomacy, I do not see why this is difficult to understand.

[Lord Brendan]

I think IronSoldier was just associating Sponge with Polar.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Ivan don't play the ignorant card. You know very well what I'm talking about. In an e-lawyer sense, we both know that the only rules set by Cyber Nations are the ones set by the admins. But we also both know that there are rules we have set amongst ourselves and we've seen them enforced time and time again. These are the silent agreements we've made that help us all come to a mutual understanding of who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

Tell me an alliance has never been punished for endorsing spying on another one, tell me a nuclear rogue never caused more trouble than he was worth, and tell me that an alliance poaching another alliance's members never did any harm. You've been around for a long time Ivan, and so have I. We've both played on the diplomatic front, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Ah, the problem with your analysis is that you support the methodology that led to the resent global conflict and the two plus years of hegemonic impunity that preceded it.

I personally believe a return to the "wild" days of the Cyberverse would be good for the community and I do not necessarily care for the conventions of those that would seek to use them to oppress the masses.

[Drostan]

Well, if an apology has been issued in private as Moldavi has stated, I hope that TDO has been satisfied.

I don't think many people are trying to escalate this so much as trying to ensure that they're not getting spammed with recruitment messages despite being in their alliance for over a year.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I think that Grub's post implied they stand behind their allies. There is no doubt in my mind that if TDO were to declare, NpO and the rest of Frostbite would be there to defend a war that NSO seems to be trying to start.

You are incorrect.

The only people attempting to start a war in this thread are those that are pushing to manufacture a recruitment message into a casus belli. If I wanted to start a war I would pick a target and declare such.

[Frankdolf]

Could you direct me to the place where those three rules are posted?

The Frontal Lobe, Aisle 7- Common Sense

[shahenshah]

I cant believe TDO is just standing here getting slapped on the face again and again. Well, I guess thats the inherent level of required tolerance to be in a neutral alliance in the first place. If you have accepted this practice, if so then, chill out.

Edited July 3, 2009 by shahenshah

[Electron Sponge]

Member poaching is considered to be a hostile action by quite a large fraction of CN it seems. We could do a poll about this if you don't believe me...

A large fraction of CN haven't actually thought critically on the issue and are just going by what a few others say. Given enough time to debate the issue, peoples' minds can and will change. If you don't believe me, I'll refer you to the case of Vox Populi v. Hegemony.

I don't think it matters much if NSO considers this an act of war. It's up to the other alliances to cast their judgment about these actions.

It does matter because the OP claimed that NSO said as much, when they never have. It's a lie.

Yes, but back a while ago (no more searching for me, thanks) I believe it was Heft who in part justified a lack of apology on the grounds that TDO decided to bandstand instead of negotiate and I am merely showing that TDO appears to have tried to go through proper channels to address the issue.

The proper channels are to make a global announcement containing blatantly false accusations against NSO? That's an interesting modus operandi.