NPO - A Suggestion

[Azhrarn]

FAN had violators of the terms, you really can't deny that. I'm not saying both sides handled the situation perfectly however there were violators from FAN.

Oh yes I can. The NPO had an issue with a few nations having more than 20% troops, yet the terms offered did not specify a specific percentage but rather "enough soldiers to keep their population happy." A few other nations had factories or military forces. The terms stated that any nation in violation would be ZI'd. Instead the NPO declared perma-war upon the entire alliance, just four days before the terms would have expired, and despite the fact that there were doubts as to whether some of the nations found to be in violation were actual FAN members at all.

Of course that was hardly the first or last time that the NPO offered peace terms in bad faith, only to later unilaterally alter said terms or violate said terms through renewed attacks upon disarmed nations.

So with this in mind, of course the NPO refuses to leave peace mode. Your greatest fear is that Karma will turn out to be just as duplicitous and morally bankrupt as yourselves.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Essenia]

Oh yes I can. The NPO had an issue with a few nations having more than 20% troops, yet the terms offered did not specify a specific percentage but rather "enough soldiers to keep their population happy."

Actually, as NPO smugly noted, there were OVER 100 NATIONS in violation.

That thread also has dozens of gems like this:

Why would we "create" a reason when you handed us one on a silver platter? You bemuse me!

bonus to the first person who remembers who that was.

[Azhrarn]

Actually, as NPO smugly noted, there were OVER 100 NATIONS in violation.

Yes, 100 nations in violation of a non-existent term, as nowhere was an exact 20% figure specified. Had this truly been an issue, it could have been addressed at any time during the three months the terms were in effect, rather than waiting until 4 days before terms expired. Unless you want to argue that over 100 FAN members would knowingly violate a term, and that the NPO would somehow overlook the same for three months.

[Ellis]

That's a lovely new quote you have there Azhrarn, just because you put it in your sig, doesn't make it mean what you think it means.

I'm fairly sure if you asked someone from FAN, they would say that at some point they were given terms, and then they chose not to take them. Although of course, if you read the sub-text and subliminal meaning, it really says "yes, we are the most evil thing ever, worse than hitler and stalin and mao and ever other dictator ever rolled in to one, and deep down we want you to destroy us." Yes, that is indeed not what it says, but what it really means.

[Azhrarn]

yes, we are the most evil thing ever, worse than hitler and stalin and mao and ever other dictator ever rolled in to one...

I'm glad to see we're making progress.

And if you liked my 2nd quote, you're going to love the 3rd one. Enjoy.

[Ellis]

I'm glad to see we're making progress.

And if you liked my 2nd quote, you're going to love the 3rd one. Enjoy.

Oh, it's great, I'm not sure even Vladimir could defend how that came out, although that actually wasn't what Sarai meant y'know

[R&R-Viking]

FAN had violators of the terms, you really can't deny that. I'm not saying both sides handled the situation perfectly however there were violators from FAN.

For weeks in this war after GDA surrendered they had nations violating the terms, and those individual nations were attacked leaving GDA intact.

Should Karma redeclare on GDA?

[Tromp]

Numerous Karma members have posted that they want to see the NPO destroyed. The "terms" we've been offered start off with "We haven't been able to nuke *all* of you down, and until we do, we won't give you terms".

Looks to me like destroying the NPO is certainly your plan. I just can't see any reason to go along with it.

Do I really have to point out that terms are discussed on gov. level, not membership level? And that this group that wants 'the NPO dead' is a minority in Karma?

I'm almost feeling sorry for you... Almost. But this lack of trust in your opponents, and fear for your opponents make it that I can't feel sorry though.

NPO is holding out for better terms than "Let us nuke down your banks, beat you to a pulp, and then pay us huge reps while we tie your hands with rules about who is allowed to make the payments."

We aren't asking for white peace. We actually offered to pay more reps than Karma asked for.

You're not well informed. The only thing that kept us all from peace was the timetable for the 14 day of war clause (so in what time they were required to have an % of nations from peace to war mode). And we had even made assurances that nations that were nation sat could be given exemptions.

About the reps... The term stated that the amount could be lowered if you weren't able to comply.

[Tromp]

Oh, I'm fully aware that it wouldn't mean much, it's why I said "and this would be more to satisfy me more than anyone else." It wouldn't make much of a difference, in the end, but it'd be nice to see Karma talking as Karma, instead of all of these individual and dispersed voices, just for simplicity's sake.

Thanks for the name, that will save me a lot of trouble looking for it.

Keep in mind that all this speculation never would have happenend if the NPO didn't publicily rejected our terms in order to try and get public support.

[Haflinger]

actually i was saying that if i could i would have declared on the entire NPO myself.

if you want a stagger done right you got to do it your self it seems

The interesting part about Bakunin's wars is that he was staggered when he came out of peace mode. However, when his wars expired, they weren't replaced.

Apparently Karma is better at tracking peace mode nations than war mode nations.

[the rebel]

The interesting part about Bakunin's wars is that he was staggered when he came out of peace mode. However, when his wars expired, they weren't replaced.

Apparently Karma is better at tracking peace mode nations than war mode nations.

I think their excuse is all the available nations are in anarchy so it becomes hard to stop nations running to peace.... Which is a laughable excuse at this stage of the war

Edited July 2, 2009 by the rebel

[Locke]

actually i was saying that if i could i would have declared on the entire NPO myself.

if you want a stagger done right you got to do it your self it seems

Oh, I know that's what you said, but sadly, we do have to work within the constructs of the game. If you're out of slots, you're kinda stuck with this:

[Stetson76]

Wow you put my nation in a chart. *clap clap*. I don't really care about your math with days since refusal of terms etc... I'm not really playing CN currently. I don't think there's any correlation between things my nation does, and dates you publish whatever terms. There's more correlation between things my nation does, and dates where I felt like "let's click collect tax in CN today" during a bored moment.

Then surrender and provide one less nation the NPO has to worry about not following orders. You're obviously not one of the "valued, long term members of their community" at least not currently, so cut them some slack and help them out. Either go into war mode, or leave. Either one helps them out.

[Elendil old]

Oh yes I can. The NPO had an issue with a few nations having more than 20% troops, yet the terms offered did not specify a specific percentage but rather "enough soldiers to keep their population happy." A few other nations had factories or military forces. The terms stated that any nation in violation would be ZI'd. Instead the NPO declared perma-war upon the entire alliance, just four days before the terms would have expired, and despite the fact that there were doubts as to whether some of the nations found to be in violation were actual FAN members at all.

Of course that was hardly the first or last time that the NPO offered peace terms in bad faith, only to later unilaterally alter said terms or violate said terms through renewed attacks upon disarmed nations.

So with this in mind, of course the NPO refuses to leave peace mode. Your greatest fear is that Karma will turn out to be just as duplicitous and morally bankrupt as yourselves.

The terms actually stated only enough soldiers to keep the population happy which would translate to 20 pct.

[Azhrarn]

1. Destroy all factories, nukes, air force, CMs and tanks. FAN will only keep enough soldiers to keep their population happy. Decommission must happen within seven (7) days. This state of decommission shall last three (3) months from the time the terms are ratified.

Question: Where do you see 20% in the paragraph above?

Answer: You don't.

Question: Is it always correct to equate a 20% soldier to citizen ratio with population happiness?

Answer: No, it is not.

Nation population and nation happiness are both variables which can and do continually fluctuate due to a wide variety of factors, including trade resources, bonus resources, negative events, government type, environment, global radiation, national religion, population density, infrastructure level and a nation's age, to give just a few examples.

[the rebel]

FAN will only keep enough soldiers to keep their population happy.

Question: Is it always correct to equate a 20% soldier to citizen ratio with population happiness?

Answer: No, it is not.

Nation population and nation happiness are both variables which can and do continually fluctuate due to a wide variety of factors, including trade resources, bonus resources, negative events, government type, environment, global radiation, national religion, population density, infrastructure level and a nation's age, to give just a few examples.

20% is the bare minimum needed to keep your population happy, if it goes below that they become unhappy and anarchy

[raincoat2]

I think a big part of the issue is FAN was never given any notification to stop the violators or even a clarification of 20 percent AND that this violation had been happening for months, but NPO decided to wait till the terms were almost done to sneak attack the entire alliance. If NPO really had an issue with the violators they would have addressed it months before when the violations began instead of waiting till the terms were almost over to catch FAN on a technicality(which in no way violated the spirit of the surrender, FAN was definitely not using these soldiers for anything and the terms only had 4 days left on them).

[kevin32891]

I think a big part of the issue is FAN was never given any notification to stop the violators or even a clarification of 20 percent AND that this violation had been happening for months, but NPO decided to wait till the terms were almost done to sneak attack the entire alliance. If NPO really had an issue with the violators they would have addressed it months before when the violations began instead of waiting till the terms were almost over to catch FAN on a technicality(which in no way violated the spirit of the surrender, FAN was definitely not using these soldiers for anything and the terms only had 4 days left on them).

To bad. Rules are rules if you break them their are consequences.

[Matthew Conrad]

To bad. Rules are rules if you break them their are consequences.

I'm going to keep this one in my locker for future use.

[WarriorConcept]

To bad. Rules are rules if you break them their are consequences.

NPO better make sure to follow those peace terms once they're accepted then.

[Lord Brendan]

It's also worth pointing out that FAN's terms were back when soldiers were bought from a drop-down menu: you couldn't just buy any number you wanted.

[WarriorConcept]

It's also worth pointing out that FAN's terms were back when soldiers were bought from a drop-down menu: you couldn't just buy any number you wanted.

Thanks for reminding me how annoying buying tanks was

[hammer]

Question: Where do you see 20% in the paragraph above?

Answer: You don't.

Question: Is it always correct to equate a 20% soldier to citizen ratio with population happiness?

Answer: No, it is not.

Nation population and nation happiness are both variables which can and do continually fluctuate due to a wide variety of factors, including trade resources, bonus resources, negative events, government type, environment, global radiation, national religion, population density, infrastructure level and a nation's age, to give just a few examples.

Actually, the correct answer by game mechanics is 20-80%, as less=anarchy, and more = whatever its called when you have too many and your populatino get pissed.

So no FAN nations were in fact in violation of said term.

[TypoNinja]

Thanks for reminding me how annoying buying tanks was

oh god >_<

Buy half your max at a time from a drop down, stuck buying 50 batches of tanks to try to max them out.

The new buy screens are so such better.

[Seerow]

Thanks for reminding me how annoying buying tanks was

But it was a great way to get on the front page for most transactions. It's amazing how many people did buying tanks wrong. And how many didn't tech raid...