Old Man Chron

[Francesca]

I have to agree that there is a lot of low-quality posting on these forums, and I do get rather sick of it. However, threads like this have been made before, like one that I wrote several months ago, "An Open Letter to Planet Bob." I don't think they are really going to change anything. Just let the morons be morons, and try to debate the people who have real intellectual integrity and are open to other ideas.

[TehChron]

I have to agree that there is a lot of low-quality posting on these forums, and I do get rather sick of it. However, threads like this have been made before, like one that I wrote several months ago, "An Open Letter to Planet Bob." I don't think they are really going to change anything. Just let the morons be morons, and try to debate the people who have real intellectual integrity and are open to other ideas.

Too lazy to bother putting all of those people on my ignore list. Also too lazy to bother learning how to even do that in the first place, in fact.

I believe Bob's point is that less respect is held for those alliances who are perceived to be "puppets" as opposed to those perceived to be major players. While IRON was one of the largest alliances in CN before the war, they were perceived as self-determinant, which is why they would not be on the receiving end of ridicule as much as GGA.

That wasnt what I was taking issue with. I was referring to his perceived justification for giving harsher reparations demands to Echelon. Which, he said in the same post, were really to small a bit player to be worth the effort.

So by that logic, shouldn’t the larger and more important players of One Vision therefore logically also play a larger role in the oppression, and by extension, be more to blame?

Point is summed up there.

I believe it's a mistake to characterize NPO as an alliance which is no longer of consequence. Part of the nature of treaties, however, is that they require communication. From what my sources have told me, TOP was mediating the dispute between NPO and OV when NPO and TORN attacked. This could be perceived as an insult to TOP, regardless of whether or not the NPO/TORN CB was valid. I believe the "class" statement from Bob Janova comes from the line in the OP of the cancellation thread: "We wish Pacifica all the best, and we hope that the relationship between us will see repair in the future."

Have what your sources claimed been verified? Or are you taking over for Mogar's News Network now and thats where you got it from? Either way, from what Ive seen, no one said that. And whats more, what you're saying is a seperate tangent altogether, as the point I was making with those quotes was to put Janova's hypocrisy out in the open.

Clearly one of the NPO’s stuanchest allies over the past two years dropping the NPO now when they’re no longer of consequence is evidence of just how horrible the NPO’s reign of terror was while TOP was actually involved in it.

In that quote by Bob, he is speaking to the OP, not to you. The OP has been playing CN for about a year, therefore was not on hand for all of the forced disbandments at the hands of NPO.

Chron:

So….Yeah. Huh. Well, at least you admit that the NPO’s being treated differently for a *reason*, although that implied reason applies very well to many other alliances not being dealt harsh reps. Or, for that matter, are referenced in the above quote. But hey, who am I to judge? Perhaps I don’t see the whole “picture”, as it were.

How is that a response to what I said?

I don't believe Bob was attempting to dig at Nordreich. As far as the aggressive history goes, he may be referring to LSF/Q-Collective incident as well as NoV's involvement in the Unjust War, but that is solely speculation on my part. Also, Bob pointed out that it's not just the name of the alliance, but the fact that many of the same people are in it.

You start the paragraph by saying you doubted Bob was digging at them, and then at the end of the paragraph you justify the obvious dig.

Hah.

There are greater concerns than just pro- and anti-Pacifica. Shortly after I left NPO in February, I had a conversation with Moo about how I was perceiving the game to be boring. He acknowledged that this was true, but said that the Continuum was not solely at fault. At the end of the Great Patriotic War, a sense of competition was able to be achieved, which led to improved gameplay as alliances clamored for position.

What does this have to do with anything?

While intellectual arguements can be made contradicting Bob Janova's points, I still don't see how his posts are dishonest at all or are being made in bad faith.

Based entirely on the fact that the points of dialogue you quoted were apparently completely misunderstood by you...Ill just leave it right there.

[KingSuck]

There isn't a group in charge right now and the forums are more interesting than for a long time.

Not really. The forums were great in the lead up and in some respect during the war but they suck atm.

I find all of Chron's points to be pretty valid, and though it would have done better to have used quotes from other players instead of just Bob so people wouldn't be constantly saying that this is some type of grudge post it is easier to research one player then many.

This, I agree with a lot of what you said Chron.

[Bob Janova]

I started playing in November 2006 and was active on the forum in GW2 and GW3, so you are wrong.

Also, my post in the Echelon thread, an OOC thread, which you seem to be using as the one to attempt to beat me with, is attempting to explain the position of the alliances at war with Echelon, not my own. The same thing is true with many of my posts about NPO. I don't see how it is hypocritical or lying to attempt to explain my interpretation of what the alliances offering terms are thinking, but there you go.

Personally, I think the forums would be infinitely better without personal attacks and ad hominems, so it's rather ironic that your entire post claiming it is trying to make the boards better is basically a big personal attack against me.

[Haflinger]

I started playing in November 2006 and was active on the forum in GW2 and GW3, so you are wrong.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to GW1.

Janova's account on the old forums.

[HellAngel]

I cant see Chron making any real point other than bashing Bob Janova and Karma. Do you think this really is all just propaganda? Why do you think NPO went down? A whole bunch of people must feel like Bob does in order to bring down a powerstructure like the one NPO had and you cant do that just with propaganda and deceit.

[Tygaland]

I tend to agree with Chron in principle.

The game is one with a political simulation aspect so I can't really get too annoyed with spin and rhetoric because of it. There is a difference between spin and blatant misrepresentation of comments which is something that I find most annoying.

That said, while I may not agree with Bob Janova 100% of the time I do find his posts to be well thought out and logical from his political standpoint. Looking at the quotes you used as an example I can see, politically, what he is doing and why. His alliance was allied to the NPO when the NPO commited some of her "crimes" that she is now paying for in this war. So, alliances like Grämlins, Sparta and TOP are in a tight spot when it comes to discussing peace terms and their harshness or lack of harshness. They say they understand the NPO needs to be punished for "crimes" of the past but as they were party to some of them they are reluctant to say so too openly. Likewise with the other Continuum/1V alliances like GGA, Valhalla and TPF. If TOP, Grämlins and Sparta vocally pushed for harsh terms on those alliances then they would really be hypocrites as they were in the same boat as those alliances not too long ago.

Because of this, Bob Janova and others in his position politically have to walk a tightrope which means their responses on the issue of terms in this war cantain a large amount of spin.

To me, there are plenty of worse offences where certain posters post blatant lies on a regular basis in th ehope that repeating it often enough will make it fact,

Edited June 28, 2009 by Tygaland

[Haflinger]

I cant see Chron making any real point other than bashing Bob Janova and Karma. Do you think this really is all just propaganda? Why do you think NPO went down? A whole bunch of people must feel like Bob does in order to bring down a powerstructure like the one NPO had and you cant do that just with propaganda and deceit.

He's arguing that you can and have, and providing examples to support his view of events.

[HellAngel]

I dont see taking a bunch of comments out of context and accusing someone of trying to influence public opinion when he just intended to state his own as "support". There is no agenda behind it, it's just bob posting his opinion. Which he always did, no matter who it was against or for.

Edited June 28, 2009 by HellAngel

[Bob Janova]

I'm pretty sure he was referring to GW1.

That would be why he was talking about early 2007 ... oh, wait.

Edit for quote

Once again, Im commenting on how far OWF discussion has fallen since early 2007

Haflinger, you are one of the people that certainly does come to a thread with a conclusion already in place and tries to argue towards it, which is exactly what Chron is trying to point out (although he misplaces his anger since I don't do that). Perhaps you should take more note of the OP than me.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Bob Janova

[OneBallMan]

I guess I must also be one of the offenders, cause I don't see much wrong in Bob's posts. I am usually hair-trigger quick to jump on them, cause I generally think he is full of crap, but the posts, while slanted to an extreme imo, do have a basis in logic.

I do think however, that there are some alliance groups that protest their Karma credentials way more than they ought to (former tC anyone?), and when called on it, seem to devolve any argument into a "No U".

I find greatest offense, and maybe that is the point of the OP, in people who were friends yesterday being PB meme jumpers, like the little guy at the end of the bar surrounded by 20 of his friends screaming "Yeah, you do suck, Na Na Na Na, Boo Boo, Snapsies-noerasies, Ppppplrrrbbb".

[Thorgrum]

What should be most telling here isnt who the op points out as an example, but the context in which the post is made. I am always fascinated by those who claim the level of discourse isnt to thier personal tastes or likes, but yet read it anyway. Then devote a thread to the notion of said dissatisfaction within in the same venue, and engage the same people they claim to be complicit in thier annoyance. Watching a dog chasing its tail is fun for awhile but over time it becomes an excersise of wasted time as the final outcome of the act is clear, they bite themselves or stop.

Very entertaining thread though, points for presentation, would reccomend to the unwashed masses its chaulk full of everything (good and bad) about the political side of the game including that beautiful charecter trait we all love called hypocrisy.

[kingzog]

Hello, Chron. While we don't know each other we are both old men of Cybernations. I managed to reside here for nearly a year before making my first post on the main forum in March or April 2007. So I'm fairly well qualified to talk about the good old days....in-between setting man-traps on my lawn to teach those kids a lesson.

First, you are absolutely correct. The level of discourse on this forum has fallen to embarrassing levels.

Second, you have singled out Bob Janova's hypocrisy. That's fair, of course. Anyone who posts as often as Bob ought to realize that they are fair game for legitimate criticism.

Since a comment directed at me was mentioned, I feel I should respond if only to clear up my own feelings on the matter.

What did I think of what Bob said to me?

If you look in that particular thread, I believe I called him on it rather quickly. I tried to do so politely, all the while thinking, "How dare you, you hypocritical son of a !@#$%*! You were latched onto Pacifica's teat while I was on their perma-ZI list and you have the gall to come in here and lecture me about second chances? Suck it, buddy. Seriously. Just suck it."

Frankly, that's how I feel about 99% of the people who have been so quick to criticize or demonize my alliance since our Reformation. At one point or another, most of them have had their heads so far up the NPO's rear end that they could see Bilrow's feet. (That line worked so much better when he led the GGA. And yes, I've been using it for that long.)

While it's marvelous that Bob and the rest of Grämlins, along with a large part of the Cyberverse, have had their Damascene experience, it doesn't take away from the fact that they were, for a very long time, part of the problem.

Until proven otherwise, I accept their conversion as real. Now, if only they they would extend the same courtesy to me.

This is why, as I've said elsewhere, I'm done taking the bait with regard to my alliance. If someone wishes to criticize Nordreich for something that has happened since the first week of May, then fine. That's fair. But I will no longer apologize for or even address two-year-old criticisms of my alliance -- and if I do, expect me to be dismissive and rude -- especially when said criticisms come from those who benefited quite nicely from Pax Pacifica.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kingzog

[HellAngel]

You're confusing Bob Janova with all of the Gremlins Kingzog. He very vividly argued against joining Continuum when we did.

[kingzog]

You're confusing Bob Janova with all of the Gremlins Kingzog. He very vividly argued against joining Continuum when we did.

And yet he remained, reaping the benefits of that association.

[HellAngel]

Benefits? What benefits did Bob Janova personally get by joining the Continuum?

[Kindom of Goon]

This thread is so deliciously ironic in that it's just another platform to call some from Karma (and bob) hypocrites.

You know what really makes this place horrible, not hidden agendas, lies, hypocricy or any of that crap, its folks going over the same thing over and over again at every opportunity because they may have a grudge or opinion that they feel needs to be heard every 2.4 minutes.

[Tom Litler]

Benefits? What benefits did Bob Janova personally get by joining the Continuum?

He benefited by being in the tank instead of under it, so to speak, while being in a toilet seat alliance. He could easily have left if he was so morally abject to the idea of being in it. I know you'll try to justify it as pure loyalty to the Gremlins which is fine but in that case he simply shouldn't have room to lecture others on ethics, mistakes and "second chances". You can't ride a tank and a moral high horse at the same time, Bob.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Tom Litler

[HeinousOne]

Sometimes your friends decide to do something you do not like. Does that mean you tell your friends they are no longer your friends or do you stick beside them and try and guide them away from that decision that you think was a bad one?

[Cobalt]

I find all of Chron's points to be pretty valid, and though it would have done better to have used quotes from other players instead of just Bob so people wouldn't be constantly saying that this is some type of grudge post it is easier to research one player then many.

...wow.

Following your logic;

If I was writing a paper about the foods people eat around the world, I could just go out and see what people on my block cooked for dinner last night. So much easier than actually doing research that would present the entire picture.

- - -

@Chron/OP: I like your points, but using examples from a single player isn't going to get you anywhere. In all honestly, everyone thinks they're unbiased and free of hypocrisy unless they're doing so intentionally. I don't believe you intended this thread to come off the way it did, but it did none the less. Take a step back, take the time to pull enough examples to support your points, then maybe people will really listen.

[Haflinger]

That would be why he was talking about early 2007 ... oh, wait.

Hmmm.

Ooooh! Now it all makes sense, it’s all about second CHANCES. And clearly the NPO blew theirs back in 2006. Yeah, I remember fighting gramlins back in the day…Good…Wait. No I didn’t. Were you even *playing this game* back then, Bob? And what do you know about the circumstances? If you knew what was going on at all, you’d have already known that leaving the Orders off with a bloody lip was because the CoaLUEtion felt that the NPO was no longer a threat. There was no mercy involved at all, the CoaLUEtion just collectively, and naivelly, assumed that they’d be able to beat down any attempts the Orders made to take us down had we risen again. Hell, I’m sure Archon has logs of those conversations, possibly AirMe too, but I don’t think he was high enough up back then.

He's talking about 2006.

What happened in 2006, Bob?

Hint: He seems to be talking about something called the CoaLUEtion.

Haflinger, you are one of the people that certainly does come to a thread with a conclusion already in place and tries to argue towards it, which is exactly what Chron is trying to point out (although he misplaces his anger since I don't do that). Perhaps you should take more note of the OP than me.

I wonder what conclusion I am arguing for now.

I was just trying to explain his post, since it seemed to me you didn't understand it.

[Haflinger]

Benefits? What benefits did Bob Janova personally get by joining the Continuum?

Protection from Electron Sponge, chefjoe, and the other people who would have loved to ZI him repeatedly.

[kingzog]

Benefits? What benefits did Bob Janova personally get by joining the Continuum?

I never thought I'd say this....but Tom Litler pretty much covered what I was going to say.

[HellAngel]

He benefited by being in the tank instead of under it, so to speak, while being in a toilet seat alliance. He could easily have left if he was so morally abject to the idea of being in it. I know you'll try to justify it as pure loyalty to the Gremlins which is fine but in that case he simply shouldn't have room to lecture others on ethics, mistakes and "second chances". You can't ride a tank and a moral high horse at the same time, Bob.

Our security wasnt in danger at the time Continuum was founded. If you want to argue something, then at least go for it making us able to stomp polar. And that can hardly be accounted to Bob personally.

Edited June 28, 2009 by HellAngel

[Heyman]

Our security wasnt in danger at the time Continuum was founded.

There you go.

It's all about the self-preservation, amirite?