Address from Commanding General

[HeinousOne]

Peggy knows what she's talking about. And I was there for a good part of it.

Where were you when I brought this up?

[Haflinger]

Where were you when I brought this up?

Probably bringing it up in some other thread

But it doesn't really matter. I've seen you bang this drum too. There's a few of us who know.

[rsoxbronco1]

rsoxbronco it pains me to see that you took the statement of a member of GRAN which holds no gov positions relating to Mhawk and used it to attack the whole of GRAN. When I think I have made it clear we love mhawk and TPF and have expressed it to him myself. Furthermore your alliance proceeds to openly show signs of aggression and blatant threats to an alliance not even a third athens size. We have publicly apologized to your government concerning our past mistakes and have tried to improve relations all we have gotten is out of line comments from you yourself in our irc channel and public threats of aggression from your MoFA.

Because I said your member should be thankful means I was threatening you? meh

Edited June 27, 2009 by rsoxbronco1

[BamaBuc]

Oh I'm sorry, let me spend hours doing research just so you can be appeased.

I'll be back later just so I can make you feel better.

Well, if you can't back up your point that "no one cares about broken NAPs" with examples, you don't have much of a point at all. But whatever.

Peggy, did I mention you're awesome?

-Bama

[Tygaland]

I don't think I can change then tyga. Mostly on account of I don't believe I've ever given "horrific terms" to a fallen alliance. So to change I'd need to give horrific terms?

I'm talking about your alliance as you are well aware. To see that it has changed I need to see evidence it has rather than rhetoric. Contrary to your determined efforts, your alliance does not get a clean slate when you change leaders. Seeing as you have never granted any other alliance such a concession I find it amusing you demand it for your alliance.

[BamaBuc]

I'm talking about your alliance as you are well aware. To see that it has changed I need to see evidence it has rather than rhetoric. Contrary to your determined efforts, your alliance does not get a clean slate when you change leaders. Seeing as you have never granted any other alliance such a concession I find it amusing you demand it for your alliance.

How do we show this change? And what are we supposed to be changing? I'd say we've proven that TPF has changed since UJW, for one. What else? Giving harsh terms? Well, since Mhawk took over, who have we given harsh terms to? Are we supposed to roll a random alliance and give them white peace just to prove that we don't give harsh terms anymore? Mhawk was pushing for peace with FAN for months (heck, so was big bad evil Slayer)... Is that not change? "but you didn't give them peace yourselves until now!" No, because Mhawk has a standing policy of never leaving a war that allies are still fighting, win or lose. But he pushed for a general peace with FAN for ages. What else do we need to do? Not take over the world? Somehow I don't think you'll have to worry about that.

-Bama

Edited June 27, 2009 by BamaBuc

[Tygaland]

How do we show this change? And what are we supposed to be changing? I'd say we've proven that TPF has changed since UJW, for one. What else? Giving harsh terms? Well, since Mhawk took over, who have we given harsh terms to? Are we supposed to roll a random alliance and give them white peace just to prove that we don't give harsh terms anymore? Mhawk was pushing for peace with FAN for months (heck, so was big bad evil Slayer)... Is that not change? "but you didn't give them peace yourselves until now!" No, because Mhawk has a standing policy of never leaving a war that allies are still fighting, win or lose. But he pushed for a general peace with FAN for ages. What else do we need to do? Not take over the world? Somehow I don't think you'll have to worry about that.

-Bama

Ah, so giving peace to an alliance you held in continuous war for 2 years is signs of change? lol

You haven't had the opportunity to give harsh or fair terms to anyone since mhawk took over so I guess when the time comes, we will see. Just because you say you have changed does not convince me you have no matter how hysterical your posts get.

I remember when you used to be able to post in a coherent and civil manner. At least I can see evidence that you have changed, Bama.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Tygaland

[BamaBuc]

Ah, so giving peace to an alliance you held in continuous war for 2 years is signs of change? lol

You haven't had the opportunity to give harsh or fair terms to anyone since mhawk took over so I guess when the time comes, we will see. Just because you say you have changed does not convince me you have no matter how hysterical your posts get.

I remember when you used to be able to post in a coherent and civil manner. At least I can see evidence that you have changed, Bama.

I guess I'm just a little frustrated because we're somehow supposed to show you change now, while fighting a guerilla war. Not sure how you expect us to do that.

I could say the same for you. Your own posts have become increasingly belligerent in recent months.

-Bama

[Tygaland]

I guess I'm just a little frustrated because we're somehow supposed to show you change now, while fighting a guerilla war. Not sure how you expect us to do that.

I could say the same for you. Your own posts have become increasingly belligerent in recent months.

-Bama

I never once demanded you change immediately. I merely said I'd need to see evidence of the change before I believed it rather than take your word for it. If you think I'm going to be one of the first won over by your alliance claiming it has changed its path then I think you are kidding yourself.

I wish TPF all the best on their new path and look forward to seeing evidence of it in the future.

My posting has always been direct and to the point. If I have a question, I ask it straight up. If I have an opinion, I post it straight up. I don't think that has changed and it is unlikely to change in the future. I don't see any point in not being honest when expressing my opinion.

[BamaBuc]

I never once demanded you change immediately. I merely said I'd need to see evidence of the change before I believed it rather than take your word for it. If you think I'm going to be one of the first won over by your alliance claiming it has changed its path then I think you are kidding yourself.

I wish TPF all the best on their new path and look forward to seeing evidence of it in the future.

My posting has always been direct and to the point. If I have a question, I ask it straight up. If I have an opinion, I post it straight up. I don't think that has changed and it is unlikely to change in the future. I don't see any point in not being honest when expressing my opinion.

Then I apologize. I don't expect you to just take our word for it... It's just kinda frustrating to be told to show change when there's not much we can do at the moment.

It's something I've noticed in general, not just from you and not just from your side. I think we've all let a little excess vitriol slip into our posts the last few months, myself included.

-Bama

[KinKiac]

The fact is the war was going to happen. Months before it happened the numbers were run and it looked fairly even, with us trailing a little and quite a few undeceideds. As time rolled on and more and more alliances left for Karma, became obvious where they truely were lining up (even if allied to NPO you know who) and the undeciededs fell on teh Karma side it became more and more obvious that we were heading for a losing war. Why did NPO go ahead and declare along with everyone else?? Well fact is even if NPO hadn't declared on OV, by this time Karma would have most likely had the numbers to Curbstomp NPO and any siding with them. So it was a matter of waiting around for the curbstomp, or go ahead and kick it off (although there were better reasons than the one chosen) and take a chance that the Mighty Admin would bless us adn we could at least reach a draw. Anyone on Karma who says that they thought they were going to lose, esp in those last few days is either incompetent or a liar. And when Sparta left NPO to join Karma officially, it was all over but the shouting.

Why start a war, gain bad PR and play into Karma's game? Why not wait, build yourself up, warn your allies, like MCXA who had NO idea the war was coming and so didnt prepare, and do your best not to give Karma a reason to jump on you? Prove them wrong? Take more steps to show the community that you were willing to change(Im referring to NPO BTW) and maybe just maybe some of those fence sitters would have fell on your side. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to start a war when chances are you will lose. Politics is what wins wars around here not numbers. If NPO didnt give Karma the war they were looking for(assuming that is what happened) then Karma could not attack NPO without looking just as bad themselves. All the good PR Karma had in order to get all those fence sitters to join in would have been lost in that scenario. Kicking off a war at a time when things looked bad for you is a huge mistake for any alliance. If you are going to start a war then you want to do it at an opportune time. As time goes by the whole situation changes. What exactly did your(and NPO's) amazing analysts think would happen if Karma kicked things off? I can almost guarantee that things would have gone much differently, and people should have been able to see that both before and after NPO decided to attack OV. Are you really saying that you guys thouhgt it would be best to just start the war you figured you'd lose rather than allowing Karma forces to start it and thus give yourselves some PR ammo? I really just dont buy that.

EDIT: Also, what do you mean "along with everyone else." I saw NPO and TORN declare, thats it. The rest was in response.

Yeah, my Emperor created the thread, with just one post, not just over 3,000.

'Twas an infomation thread, not a disscusion thread, and like I said, you chose to respond.

Also, it was very much the response we expected.

Your Emperor also lifted the radio silence for that thread and so knew it would not be just "one post". Also, if he knew that it would turn into the monstrosity that it did the original point still stands; Your Emperor created that monstrosity, and according to you "knew" that it would become such.

Well, since those posts saying the other side would win do exist, that means either your side started the war, or you are wrong about someone starting a war they couldn't win.

Or, more liekly, NPO didn't think you were all going to pile in on THIS war - out predictions were "if there is a big war, we will lose" perhaps they didnt think it was going to be a big war?

Wait what? I really do not see any of your logic in that statement.

Our side didnt throw the first punch therefore our side did not start the war, NPO did, and they definitely arent going to win as far as I can see, so they started a war they either knew they couldnt win or, like the original statement that I was arguing said, NPO started the war thinking they would win.

To address your second point, are you trying to say that NPO didnt realize that SF would be involved? Or VE? Or that they didnt think NV would honor our treaty with VE when they sent MCXA after them? or that half of the cyberverse would disregard their treaties? Come on they are not that naive are they?

Edited June 27, 2009 by KinKiac

[Tygaland]

Then I apologize. I don't expect you to just take our word for it... It's just kinda frustrating to be told to show change when there's not much we can do at the moment.

It's something I've noticed in general, not just from you and not just from your side. I think we've all let a little excess vitriol slip into our posts the last few months, myself included.

-Bama

No problem. And I'm not asking you to show change now, I'm just saying that in order for me to believe you have changed I need to see it. So, if you have truly changed, it should only be a matter of time for that to show itself. I have no vested interest in maintaining my skepticism about TPF's new path, I've just been around long enough to need to see evidence of it before I accept that the change is real.

[Ellis]

Your Emperor also lifted the radio silence for that thread and so knew it would not be just "one post". Also, if he knew that it would turn into the monstrosity that it did the original point still stands; Your Emperor created that monstrosity, and according to you "knew" that it would become such.

My Emperor lifted the radio silence everywhere, not just for that thread, and I hardly think monstrosity is the right word.

It's a thread, with words in, that was responded to, with posts, that just had words in, and I'd said most of the arguments on both sides were well thought out, on the whole. So monstrosity is a highly unjustified word for this situation, really.

[Kilkenny]

Why start a war, gain bad PR and play into Karma's game? Why not wait, build yourself up, warn your allies, like MCXA who had NO idea the war was coming and so didnt prepare, and do your best not to give Karma a reason to jump on you? Prove them wrong? Take more steps to show the community that you were willing to change(Im referring to NPO BTW) and maybe just maybe some of those fence sitters would have fell on your side. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to start a war when chances are you will lose. Politics is what wins wars around here not numbers. If NPO didnt give Karma the war they were looking for(assuming that is what happened) then Karma could not attack NPO without looking just as bad themselves. All the good PR Karma had in order to get all those fence sitters to join in would have been lost in that scenario. Kicking off a war at a time when things looked bad for you is a huge mistake for any alliance. If you are going to start a war then you want to do it at an opportune time. As time goes by the whole situation changes. What exactly did your(and NPO's) amazing analysts think would happen if Karma kicked things off? I can almost guarantee that things would have gone much differently, and people should have been able to see that both before and after NPO decided to attack OV. Are you really saying that you guys thouhgt it would be best to just start the war you figured you'd lose rather than allowing Karma forces to start it and thus give yourselves some PR ammo? I really just dont buy that.

EDIT: Also, what do you mean "along with everyone else." I saw NPO and TORN declare, thats it. The rest was in response.

You either are kidding or are just not paying attention to what is going on. NPO would have been declared on, that was a given. There was no way NPO would have been able to do anything to change publics opinion about NPO, aside from all of the Gov stepping down and disbanding. The level of hate towards NPO runs deep, wide and long. The Fence sitters would have needed something along those lines as well to back NPO, the problem with that is there wasn't enough to bring the odds even anyway. The numbers were running against NPO et all for a while and in a steady downward spiral. I wonder though, are you really niave enough to believe that any war against NPO would have been bad PR for anyone?? I mean, all the "evil" stuff people keep bringing up about NPO and the justification for the harsh terms for NPO seem to lend to credible CB anyway. Besides, NPO showed that any CB works if your side is bigger, and anything can be overlooked if you are on the winning side. So why wait until a curbstomp happens and you get jumped?? Better to control what you can when you can.

And by everyone else, i mean everyone else who declared on the side of NPO. Doesn't matter if it was response or not, siding with NPO was not going go well. I am just wondering though, when are the politicians going to jump on the front lines and start taking damage?? I mean if politics wins wars not numbers we should see them, right??

*note, the last sentance was sarcastic as well, numbers and Soldiers are who fight and die in wars, not politicians. Politians may send them, but Soldiers do the work.

[maxnmike]

The level of hate towards NPO runs deep, wide and long.

The NPO deserves every bit of said hate. I have no pity for them. However the rest of you guys still in the war on their side, you have my respect. For what that is worth.

[NoFish]

You either are kidding or are just not paying attention to what is going on. NPO would have been declared on, that was a given. There was no way NPO would have been able to do anything to change publics opinion about NPO, aside from all of the Gov stepping down and disbanding. The level of hate towards NPO runs deep, wide and long. The Fence sitters would have needed something along those lines as well to back NPO, the problem with that is there wasn't enough to bring the odds even anyway. The numbers were running against NPO et all for a while and in a steady downward spiral. I wonder though, are you really niave enough to believe that any war against NPO would have been bad PR for anyone?? I mean, all the "evil" stuff people keep bringing up about NPO and the justification for the harsh terms for NPO seem to lend to credible CB anyway. Besides, NPO showed that any CB works if your side is bigger, and anything can be overlooked if you are on the winning side. So why wait until a curbstomp happens and you get jumped?? Better to control what you can when you can.

And by everyone else, i mean everyone else who declared on the side of NPO. Doesn't matter if it was response or not, siding with NPO was not going go well. I am just wondering though, when are the politicians going to jump on the front lines and start taking damage?? I mean if politics wins wars not numbers we should see them, right??

*note, the last sentance was sarcastic as well, numbers and Soldiers are who fight and die in wars, not politicians. Politians may send them, but Soldiers do the work.

Declared on by who, exactly? Citadel would never have supported an aggressive action against the NPO while TOP and MHA would have both defended NPO from an attack. Wanna run those numbers and see how things look?

[Walker Texas Ranger]

I just find it ironic that someone with the ruler name 'Walker Texas Ranger' wouldn't recognize an Alamo Stand when they see one.

What, Pacifica? I didn't realize Karma had suddenly decided to stand together and actually enforce something besides a uniform sense of disunity.

[enderland]

You either are kidding or are just not paying attention to what is going on. NPO would have been declared on, that was a given. There was no way NPO would have been able to do anything to change publics opinion about NPO, aside from all of the Gov stepping down and disbanding. The level of hate towards NPO runs deep, wide and long. The Fence sitters would have needed something along those lines as well to back NPO, the problem with that is there wasn't enough to bring the odds even anyway. The numbers were running against NPO et all for a while and in a steady downward spiral. I wonder though, are you really niave enough to believe that any war against NPO would have been bad PR for anyone?? I mean, all the "evil" stuff people keep bringing up about NPO and the justification for the harsh terms for NPO seem to lend to credible CB anyway. Besides, NPO showed that any CB works if your side is bigger, and anything can be overlooked if you are on the winning side. So why wait until a curbstomp happens and you get jumped?? Better to control what you can when you can.

And by everyone else, i mean everyone else who declared on the side of NPO. Doesn't matter if it was response or not, siding with NPO was not going go well. I am just wondering though, when are the politicians going to jump on the front lines and start taking damage?? I mean if politics wins wars not numbers we should see them, right??

Every time I see more insight into the logic behind the Karma War's start I am more and more amazed at the number of fallacies and incorrect assumptions that Hegemony leadership used to start the war. A large portion of Karma would not have supported a "jump" of NPO.

Plus, stop whining about how uneven this war was, I think it was like 170M to 120M NS at its peak or something, but the multiplier for strategy and coordination on Karmas side was about 10 times the one for the Hegemony. Most hegemony alliances showed up like "we're le tired, plz kill us quickly" with no attempts to use strategy or inflict damage, while those attacking them had every intention of doing so.

Had Hegemony alliances acted like MK did in the NoCB war and tried to do damage I assure you this war would have been far more 'even' and damaging to the victors (if Karma even would have won).

[shwypn]

o/ TPF

always an honor!

[Haflinger]

Had Hegemony alliances acted like MK did in the NoCB war and tried to do damage I assure you this war would have been far more 'even' and damaging to the victors (if Karma even would have won).

Yes, this is what I argued actually. However there are factors you don't know about behind why most alliances didn't fight like MK.

Specifically, quite a few people, upon seeing Karma accepting TORN cancelling its MADP with NPO and bowing out of the war, wanted to follow TORN's example. After all, if bigwoody, who actually started the war, could leave it just with an MADP cancel, anyone else could too, right?

We all know that's not what happened, and Karma responded in a really negative fashion to the plan, for which I am somewhat grateful; although if it had gone through, I suspect all my allies would be out of war by now, but I might be in a 500K alliance. Oh well, c'est la vie.

[KinKiac]

My Emperor lifted the radio silence everywhere, not just for that thread, and I hardly think monstrosity is the right word.

It's a thread, with words in, that was responded to, with posts, that just had words in, and I'd said most of the arguments on both sides were well thought out, on the whole. So monstrosity is a highly unjustified word for this situation, really.

I was just using the word that started this whole argument if you go back through the posts

You either are kidding or are just not paying attention to what is going on. NPO would have been declared on, that was a given. There was no way NPO would have been able to do anything to change publics opinion about NPO, aside from all of the Gov stepping down and disbanding. The level of hate towards NPO runs deep, wide and long. The Fence sitters would have needed something along those lines as well to back NPO, the problem with that is there wasn't enough to bring the odds even anyway. The numbers were running against NPO et all for a while and in a steady downward spiral. I wonder though, are you really niave enough to believe that any war against NPO would have been bad PR for anyone?? I mean, all the "evil" stuff people keep bringing up about NPO and the justification for the harsh terms for NPO seem to lend to credible CB anyway. Besides, NPO showed that any CB works if your side is bigger, and anything can be overlooked if you are on the winning side. So why wait until a curbstomp happens and you get jumped?? Better to control what you can when you can.

And by everyone else, i mean everyone else who declared on the side of NPO. Doesn't matter if it was response or not, siding with NPO was not going go well. I am just wondering though, when are the politicians going to jump on the front lines and start taking damage?? I mean if politics wins wars not numbers we should see them, right??

*note, the last sentence was sarcastic as well, numbers and Soldiers are who fight and die in wars, not politicians. Politians may send them, but Soldiers do the work.

I see no logic in your justification for NPO attacking OV when/IF they knew they would most likely lose "at that time". It also would show a total disrespect for NPO's allies, although that seems to be expected from them. More specifically I am talking about MCXA. They were so ill prepared they barely gave AZTEC a fight. They got destroyed and fast. So, what your saying is NPO thought they could control the situation by sending in an ill prepared MCXA to the slaughter? Hows does that work. Also I am naive enough to think that jumping any nation without valid CB would have been bad PR. There are many that could have side with NPO in that scenario and kicking it off yourself was just dumb IMO if you thought you would lose.

Also to address your last point, I dont think you really comprehend what I was saying. For one, I wasnt talking about RL. I was talking about PB. Here on PB, wars are won by nations fighting yes but who joins who and who ultimately wins is game of politics and is just as much, if not more so, a war of words as it is a war of game mechanics and sheer numbers. The numbers come through words. NPO didnt lose the numbers game as far as sheer strength and size are concerned. They lost the war of words which led to the actual in game war. If you can not see the very major part that words and propaganda play in wars around here then it is you my friend who is naive.

[Kilkenny]

I was just using the word that started this whole argument if you go back through the posts

I see no logic in your justification for NPO attacking OV when/IF they knew they would most likely lose "at that time". It also would show a total disrespect for NPO's allies, although that seems to be expected from them. More specifically I am talking about MCXA. They were so ill prepared they barely gave AZTEC a fight. They got destroyed and fast. So, what your saying is NPO thought they could control the situation by sending in an ill prepared MCXA to the slaughter? Hows does that work. Also I am naive enough to think that jumping any nation without valid CB would have been bad PR. There are many that could have side with NPO in that scenario and kicking it off yourself was just dumb IMO if you thought you would lose.

Also to address your last point, I dont think you really comprehend what I was saying. For one, I wasnt talking about RL. I was talking about PB. Here on PB, wars are won by nations fighting yes but who joins who and who ultimately wins is game of politics and is just as much, if not more so, a war of words as it is a war of game mechanics and sheer numbers. The numbers come through words. NPO didnt lose the numbers game as far as sheer strength and size are concerned. They lost the war of words which led to the actual in game war. If you can not see the very major part that words and propaganda play in wars around here then it is you my friend who is naive.

Everyone should have been aware that war was going to be happening. It was communicated to all allies, and if they failed to act on the warnings, can't help that. the situation wouldn't be totally controled, but could control some of their destiny. Also, maybe I was wrong about you being naive, I am now thinking it is a matter of you and others thinking I and us are naive enough to buy your numbers or belief that NPO couldn't have been jumped with a half way legit CB and everyone come running to their aid. At worse case you would have had Gramlins and a maybe a couple of others sit the fence. But that in no way helps NPO out. Not doubting that a lot of alliances heart wasn't in the battle though and that prob effected things quite a bit.

Also, I do know the difference between RL and PB, and the same goes here. NPO was in such a position that no amount of talking was helping. There was a steady stream of allainces joining up with Karma/remaining neutral. more time would not have meant more NS on NPO's side, wold have meant more of a curbstomp than it already was. The hatred for NPO that has surfaced on PB here in the last 2 months is thick enough to walk across from one end of the world to the other. That hatred would have been enough to polish up any CB to be acceptable to the masses. Heck the CB prob could have been "We HATE NPO!!" and it would have worked for most.

and I am glad 120m NS vs 170m NS is considered close!!! a 42% advantage!!! LOL if that wasn't enough to seal a victory for yall, then you deserved to get crushed.

[Lord Brendan]

Everyone should have been aware that war was going to be happening. It was communicated to all allies, and if they failed to act on the warnings, can't help that. the situation wouldn't be totally controled, but could control some of their destiny. Also, maybe I was wrong about you being naive, I am now thinking it is a matter of you and others thinking I and us are naive enough to buy your numbers or belief that NPO couldn't have been jumped with a half way legit CB and everyone come running to their aid. At worse case you would have had Gramlins and a maybe a couple of others sit the fence. But that in no way helps NPO out. Not doubting that a lot of alliances heart wasn't in the battle though and that prob effected things quite a bit.

Did you miss the part where all of Citadel would probably have sat out, not to mention TOP and MHA probably defending NPO? Heck, depending on the situation even RIA might have been defending them. Who would have carried out this aggressive war? Even SuperFriends and C&G together wouldn't have the strength to do it, and to my knowledge neither had any intention of going on the attack.

As for keeping allies informed, while you may have told them "there might be a big war soon", it seems like nobody told them "we're attacking OV tonight" because all of Hegemony seemed surprised.

[Kilkenny]

Did you miss the part where all of Citadel would probably have sat out, not to mention TOP and MHA probably defending NPO? Heck, depending on the situation even RIA might have been defending them. Who would have carried out this aggressive war? Even SuperFriends and C&G together wouldn't have the strength to do it, and to my knowledge neither had any intention of going on the attack.

As for keeping allies informed, while you may have told them "there might be a big war soon", it seems like nobody told them "we're attacking OV tonight" because all of Hegemony seemed surprised.

Given the way MDoAP's were streatched for alliances to attack certain ones this current war, I somehow doubt they would have missed out. Also, given the flood and the way the tide was flowing alliances and NS to Karma, it would have attracted more to the curbstomp/tech raid. That happens more often than not here on PB.

Not that it matters at this point, the amusing thing is how now certain Karma allainces are trying to spin that they switch sides believing they would lose, which is utterly false. At least wait for the war to be done and memorys to fade before re-writing history.

[enderland]

and I am glad 120m NS vs 170m NS is considered close!!! a 42% advantage!!! LOL if that wasn't enough to seal a victory for yall, then you deserved to get crushed.

Considering how hard your side tried to get alliances to fight on the other side (MHA, TOP, NpO for example) by starting it, I guess I have little sympathy for the odds this war. Even more so since your alliances were effectively maybe 1/2 your NS values.