I'm baffled NPO

[AlmightyGrub]

What would be the problem in losing the 2 week to ? war clause and adjusting the reparations to get your desired effect?

If our 8 billion 300k tech offer wasn't sufficient.Would it be out of line to request you respond with a counter offer more in line with what you want?

Thats called negotiation... for some reason they don't seem to want to negotiate. I agree the term is way too open ended to be desirable. Quantify it perhaps into a cash amount specified as coming from those particular nations before the reps commence maybe. Make it all payable in tech from those nations. It would leave the capacity to pay and drop their nations NS as you obviously so desire.

I might add, I didn't like this !@#$ happening to me and I do not like it happening to anyone, especially in these circumstances. The NPO made their bed, fine, but I can see why they wont accept the terms.

[Gn0xious Jr]

You realize we ran a coordinated spy op program on all your top 40 and many below right? When we have the actual spy reports, you can't really argue the math.

matthew, what you fail to realize is that the summer months has caused a severe decrease in their banking nations' activity. the majority of their top nations are unable to log in and check CN because they are on vacation or doing charity work.

[Starcraftmazter]

We'll have plenty of problems paying the reps. As already explained, most of our peace-mode nations do not have the warchests or the nations to withstand this kind of damage and still pay out 213% of their tech.

Are you saying that Karma is going to destroy 150k tech in 14 days? Really?

And are you contradicting your claim earlier about your banks having enough money to pay reps AND rebuild after merely 14 days of war? I made this exact assertion (that the aforementioned is not false), and you said nobody is claiming it's false, well then you must agree?

Logic and truth really mean nothing to you?

If someone has X in their warchest, and it's been weeks, then logic would in fact state that they now have X+Delta in their warchest...

Keep in mind, I am talking about the peace moders here.

[Denial]

I'm still waiting on anyone to address why the above wouldn't work.

You won't get a response to your plan, Azaghul, as it entirely undermines their cries for sympathy. The combination of taking peace negotiations public, lifting posting restrictions to create their "feel sorry for us" PR campaign, purposely ignoring or misinterpreting the peace terms in the public arena, and disregarding posts that clearly outline how they would be able to comply with the surrender terms, just shows that this is nothing more than another ploy. A ploy to return some form of control over surrender terms to their hands. A ploy to get out of the war they started with less damage than they deserve.

It's not going to work.

[Letum]

Like GW1? The smart thing to do is not to give NPO a third chance when you've shown you have no interest in mending differences with people who've beaten you.

I'm getting tired of people bringing up GW1 as an example of a "second chance".

It really wasn't. The reason why the war ended on the terms it did was because it had ground into a war of attrition and nobody had the balls to keep on taking the - at the time - unprecedented damages that it involved. The CoaLUEtion leaders were fairly hard-line anti-NPO, and I do not say this out of any bias - I was one of them, and I was just as hard-line as the rest. It was barely a week before the final peace when demands for substantial (at the time) reps were made. To think that within 8 days, the mood changed from "give us a lot of reps" to "okay, get off free" is fairly silly. Nobody is THAT flip-floppy.

The real thing that ended the war was the entry and almost immediate exit of Legion/ODN. This had little to do with an actual conciliatory stance; Legion's declaration was based on logs doctored by a disgruntled ex-member (and a spy of the coven, which was like a secret Vox without a political side), and the war ended a day later in recognition of that fact. And before you try to claim that this was an example of the Legion being "lenient", they were MDP'd up until the attack. You might have expected feelings to be slightly different.

Frankly, in tactical terms, the entire affair was a stalemate, and to compare it to this war does not make much sense. The numbers and NS involved were much, much more equal. War was cheap, and the war could have continued for a very, very long time by both sides. Being ZI'ed did not really do anything to stop your ability to fight, six million was considered a lot of aid.

Nobody at the time contested the idea that it was a stalemate on the battlefield, and neither side could really have forced the other to additional terms. The reason why a "Who won" debate ever occurred, is because in the lack of one side overwhelming the other, people look for strategic definitions of "Victory". The definition that the coaLUEtion side was "NPO's war machine was stopped, and their objective of overwhelming the LUE failed, therefore it is a strategic victory". The Orders would use the definition "The world gathered to destroy the Orders, and they failed, therefore it is a strategic victory". Frankly the entire affair was nothing but meaningless propaganda from both sides. And before you accuse me of being a brainwashes Pacifican slave, I was not arguing in favour of the orders in the threads where this was debated. Quite the opposite. The fact still remains, the result is debatable because neither side could overwhelm the other. And there was no "mercy" involved.

To give you an idea of how cheap wars were, "banking nations" back then had 3,000 NS. And tech was worth way more than it is today. The damages were way lower - Most of the top 100 nations near the end were NPO, as opposed to about 3 coaLUEtion (without Legion, and I was one of them). With so many nations intact on both sides, it was hard to make any claim of substantiative victory.

If you want to blame one thing, you can blame the lack of organisation in many of the alliances back then. The reason why the Orders had a "prized military machine", was because they had a level of organisation that would be considered a basic necessity today. Back then, everyone was a noob, and the leaders of the Orders had pretty much the most experience by far, because they had already been acting as an army in another game. In a direct quote from the military leaders responsible for this, the "war [was] a cluster$%&@". There was zero military organization, other than saying "attack". The most organized event in the entire war was focusing attacks on Vladimir, who at that point had an insane reputation because his nation had remained 1st for almost forever, with a very big difference from no 2.

Really, the Great War 1 does not give out any lessons in terms of "peace". The war solved nothing, and it merely polarized the world into two parts until the next war, creating the only "Cold War" period of CN. (And also stopping all conflicts, save one small war). At no point did the leaders believe that "NPO has learnt its lesson, let's stop now". That is the very reason why there was a cold war - the animosity and rivalry continued from day 1 of the peace. And from day 1 of peace, both sides begun the diplomatic offensive to gather allies. The ex-members of the coaLUEtion (perhaps mistakenly) focused their attempts solely on Legion/ODN - two very large alliances, who already had sympathies towards the GATO/LUE/NAAC group. NPpO focused on newer alliances, and at the same time tried to keep Legion and ODN out of the coaLUEtion camp - and they were quite a bit more successful at that. It did not take long for both sides to try to begin formalizing a bloc - By september, attempts at forming some kind of pact (which if I remember correctly had a name vaguely related to diamonds or crystals or rainbow colors; discussion was hosted on ODN forums, if they still have any archives a kind fellow from there might be able to point us the the right direction) which was repeatedly delayed because people wanted ODN and Legion on board, and there was political resistance to that. There was quite a bit of discontent towards some specific people coughZuneacough involved for that. Ultimately, these efforts were not really successful, and the entire thing consolidated into the League.

And from that point onwards, both sides were fairly actively looking for war. GWII was not "NPO coming back for revenge", especially as most people involved got a white peace, and the war started with LUE attacking GOONS in order to gain a powerful potential League ally from the FARK invasion. There was a measure of haste involved; rumours were piling in of GOONS members "crunching the stats" and "seeing their side pulling ahead" growth-wise, and Fark was pretty much the biggest asset the League could get, aside from Legion. The League still maintained a fairly substantial NS and numerical advantage in this war, and their advantage was not changed that much from GWI, because all mainstream alliances had had major growth spurts (like going from 300 to 1300 members) that cancelled out much of the effect that the entry of additional alliances had.

So please, stop making stuff up. There were a !@#$load of mistakes in the CoaLUEtion side during this entire time, but the end of GWI is not what you want to milk it as.

[Letum]

Are you saying that Karma is going to destroy 150k tech in 14 days? Really?

Yes. really.

A nuke destroys 80 tech in a day. Over 1100 in 14 days. It is not really that hard to add up the numbers for that and all the other war parts.

Edit: My exact calculations for damages from all sources:

Top 50: (1478.5 x 50) 73,920

Next 100: (739.25 x 100) 73,925

Last 31: (369.6 x 31) 11,458

Total: 159,303

And are you contradicting your claim earlier about your banks having enough money to pay reps AND rebuild after merely 14 days of war? I made this exact assertion (that the aforementioned is not false), and you said nobody is claiming it's false, well then you must agree?

I never claimed that our 181 nations responsible for this as a whole (As in, all or most of them). have enough money to rebuild, so I am not contradicting anything.

But since you insist on your thin political spinning, I will make it easy for you to understand by repeating myself.

To claim that NPO's banks with over 1Bn will be destroyed

Nobody has claimed that.

Get it?

Do you want a more detailed explanation?

Not a single soul has claimed that the 20 people in the New Pacific order with warchests over 1 billion big will be unable to rebuild or pay out reps. We are in fact claiming that we will have 50 people who are able to do so.

Is that simple enough for you?

I know it does not matter because you specifically harbour a very intense and irrational level of hatred for us, but I'll say it anyway, so make of it what you will.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Letum

[Lord Strider]

coming from an NPO'er, this means a lot...

wait, was this in regards to you taking a beating and not wanting to pay reps? cause then I can see how you wouldn't want that. NPO has been perfectly okay with being the aggressor, giving smaller nations beatings, then demanding that they pay NPO reps. So you are fine in taking reps/money/techs from alliances that have received their beatings... you just don't like being on the other end. makes sense now. thank you

I will take anything you give me.

[Starcraftmazter]

A nuke destroys 80 tech in a day. Over 1100 in 14 days. It is not really that hard to add up the numbers for that and all the other war parts.

Edit: My exact calculations for damages from all sources:

Top 50: (1478.5 x 50) 73,920

Next 100: (739.25 x 100) 73,925

Last 31: (369.6 x 31) 11,458

Total: 159,303

There are about 70 people above 4k infra/peace mode (actually slightly less), which would be the main targets.

70*14=980*80=78400

So at most this is 78k tech. The people below them are likely to be out of nuke range, but let's add another 2k for the hell of it. 80k tech - but I doubt it would even be that much, and it's certainly less than 150k.

Not a single soul has claimed that the 20 people in the New Pacific order with warchests over 1 billion big will be unable to rebuild or pay out reps. We are in fact claiming that we will have 50 people who are able to do so.

Those 50 people I would presume are the ones who can contribute most, and as I have said previously, well over 50 people in NPO have adequate tech to contribute significantly to the repayments.

I know it does not matter because you specifically harbour a very intense and irrational level of hatred for us, but I'll say it anyway, so make of it what you will.

Who's doing the political spin now?

[Denial]

Yes. really.

A nuke destroys 80 tech in a day. Over 1100 in 14 days. It is not really that hard to add up the numbers for that and all the other war parts.

Edit: My exact calculations for damages from all sources:

Top 50: (1478.5 x 50) 73,920

Next 100: (739.25 x 100) 73,925

Last 31: (369.6 x 31) 11,458

Total: 159,303

Not a single soul has claimed that the 20 people in the New Pacific order with warchests over 1 billion big will be unable to rebuild or pay out reps. We are in fact claiming that we will have 50 people who are able to do so.

We'll ignore the fact that your calculations are simplistic and entirely inaccurate, and for the sake of discussion, we'll go with this 50 nation claim that you've offered. Oh, look, here's a reconstruction and repayment plan already created for Pacifica, clearly displaying it is not only possible to make repayments within 6 months, but to do so with only 75% efficiency:

Even 4999 is kind of high and an ideal level. You only really need 3999 infra to send out tech and/or money on 6 slots. That costs $80,489,059.

Anyway for calculations of slog usage, here is an NPO recovery plan that I came up with.

Azaghul's NPO banking plan

Let's go with 50 nations with enough left over warchest to spend 150 million on infra and be a bank immediately, as Letum gives us. Let's assume you are able to get 45 to participate, and they should all have DRAs. However to account for not having 100% efficiency, we'll just go by 5 slots each. Those two concessions are giving you 75% of optimal efficiency.

Month 1

25 start paying money reps immediately. Possibly tech too. 25*5*3per month*3mill&50 tech= 1.125 billion & 18750 tech.

5 banks send 3 mill each to 25 nations in the 1000 tech+ category. Those 25 nations send 50 tech each off of their existing stockpiles at 4 slots each (3mill helps them out of bill-lock or whatever if they are in it). 25*4*3*50= 15,000 tech.

Of the other 15 banks. 5 help get random people out of bill lock. 10 devote themselves to aiding people back up to banking condition who have full economic improvements and a dozen economic wonders, and maybe a little money on hand. Likely the peace mode guys without large warchests. My experience with new nations is it takes about 4 rounds to build them up to 4K infra or so, and with rebuilding after the noCB 3 rounds or 1 month.

First month's reps paying total= 1.125 billion & 33,750 tech.

Banking condition: 45 old banks, 10 new banks, 55 total, + 25 nations got 3 mill and 75 slots towards getting others out of bill lock.

Month 2

25 banks continue to pay reps like in month 1. 1.125 billion & 18750 tech.

5 banks continue to send to fund 25 nations sending 4 slots of tech each. 15,000 tech.

5 banks continue to work on bailing people out of bill-lock if they are still in it.

20 banks aid 20 more nations back into banking condition.

Second month's reps paying total: 1.125 billion & 33,750 tech

Banking condition: 55 old banks, 20 new banks, 75 total, + 25 nations got 3 mill and 75 slots towards getting others out of bill lock.

Months 3-6

(calculated as per month)

30 banks send money and tech to pay reps out all slots: 30nations*5slots*3per month*3mill&50 tech= 1.350 billion & 22500 tech.

10 banks fund 50 sending tech on 4 slots: 50nations*4slots*3cycles*50tech= 30,000 tech

10 banks send 50 tech on 5 slots: 10*5slots*3cycles*50 tech= 7,500 tech

25 banks create 25 new banks in month 3, 50 to 100 in month 4, etc. These new banks can all be used for internal aid and rebuilding or some siphoned off to pay reps even faster, or some siphoned off if you need to account for extra inefficiency beyond what not counting DRAs compensates for.

Reps per month 1.35 billion & 60,000 tech using 110 nations.

Summary

Total tech over 6 months: 33,750+33,750+60,000*4= 307,500 tech

Total money over 6 months= 1.125 billion + 1.125 billion + 1.35billion*4= 7.65 billion

More than the total reps in 6 months, and leaving a 75% efficiency rate initially, 83% overall, and including a reasonable proportion of banks for internal aid every month that grows exponentially and could be siphoned off slightly to account for extra inefficiency.

Edit: I really need to proofread things BEFORE I post them.

Gee, I wonder why Azaghul's post keeps getting ignored!

[uaciaut]

So please, stop making stuff up. There were a !@#$load of mistakes in the CoaLUEtion side during this entire time, but the end of GWI is not what you want to milk it as.

So you hated MK and !@#$ on them for all this time just because you could, right? Same for FAN, GATO, Legion etc?

[D34th]

Interesting...

[Vol Navy]

No one is out of nuke range in this war.

You have 5000ns nations getting blasted daily.

If these NPO nations decide to fight back, it's easy to spend several hundred million dollars in 2 weeks of war.

I know because I did it a few weeks ago. War doesn't get cheap until the 3rd or 4th week when you've lost absolutely everything.

And damned if I'd not fight back as long as I was capable. I wouldn't stand still and let someone kick my butt just so I'd be capable of paying them for the privilidge after the beating was over.

One other thing you have to factor in, so many alliances hate the NPO for past wrongs (even ones that helped NPO commit said wrongs). With them completely destroyed with no way to rebuild for 6-12 months, what is to stop all the people who loathe them and wish for them to disband from simply declaring war to finish the job as soon as they finish their reps to this segement of Karma?

With the attitude many have towards them you can hardly blame them for not trusting most anyone from Karma.

The one thing these terms are assuring is what EJay pointed out earlier, that this cycle will continue. At some point these alliances will be under the boot and will have these terms thrown in their face (although I expect at some point in the future the NPO will be blamed for giving out these terms rather than being the one that they were given to).

The only way to avoid the cycle continuing would be for NPO to not just disband, but for most of them to quit playing entirely.

This vengence minded mob has shown what happens when they filter into other alliances. They take their hatred and spread their propaganda and suddenly there are 15 alliances that hate you instead of the one that you defeated.

I do give credit to part of Karma, they truly tried to change things, but certain factions just want more of the same.

Unfortunately, more of the same means bad things for the current victors as they become the new targets of mass paranoia and hatred that seems to constantly envelope Bob.

[Azaghul]

Here's a simpler monthly payment plan:

25 bank nations: 25*5*3per month*3mill&50 tech= 1.125 billion & 18750 tech per month

20 bank nations fund 100 nations in the 1k tech+ no money category. Each gets 3mill and sends 200 tech. 100nations*200tech*3cycles= 60,000 tech

1.125 billion a month would pay off the money reps in a little over 6 months. 78750 tech a month would pay the tech reps off in about 4 months.

The first category assumes 83% efficiency, giving 5 slots instead of 6 (they should nearly all have DRAs). The second category should all have DRAs. With 6 slots on all of them that's 120*250*3cyles= 90,000 tech. So that's 67% efficiency.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Azaghul

[enderland]

Azaghul you realize that if NPO admits they can pay these reps their entire argument against it is shot, right? It shouldn't surprise you that no one addresses the actual math.

[Roadie]

Of the other 15 banks. 5 help get random people out of bill lock. 10 devote themselves to aiding people back up to banking condition who have full economic improvements and a dozen economic wonders, and maybe a little money on hand. Likely the peace mode guys without large warchests. My experience with new nations is it takes about 4 rounds to build them up to 4K infra or so, and with rebuilding after the noCB 3 rounds or 1 month.

This isn't really my thing, so I could well be wrong, but it sure seems like 5 banks aren't going to be nearly enough to get people out of bill lock in an alliance the size of NPO after a war this long.

[Sulmar]

The one thing these terms are assuring is what EJay pointed out earlier, that this cycle will continue. At some point these alliances will be under the boot and will have these terms thrown in their face (although I expect at some point in the future the NPO will be blamed for giving out these terms rather than being the one that they were given to).

The only way to avoid the cycle continuing would be for NPO to not just disband, but for most of them to quit playing entirely.

This vengence minded mob has shown what happens when they filter into other alliances. They take their hatred and spread their propaganda and suddenly there are 15 alliances that hate you instead of the one that you defeated.

I do give credit to part of Karma, they truly tried to change things, but certain factions just want more of the same.

Unfortunately, more of the same means bad things for the current victors as they become the new targets of mass paranoia and hatred that seems to constantly envelope Bob.

While some of what you say is true, I highly doubt that NPO will be blamed for giving these terms. Can't really see a way to spin that one.

As for the cycle you speak of, I never doubted that NPO would get harsh terms. However, I believe that the cycle will always be going, as it is not just reps that contribute to the grudges held by CN. Really, I'm happy to let such a cycle keep on rolling, as without it CN would be a nice cuddly place where we are all friends. And thats boring as what.

[Lord Strider]

No one is out of nuke range in this war.

You have 5000ns nations getting blasted daily.

If these NPO nations decide to fight back, it's easy to spend several hundred million dollars in 2 weeks of war.

I know because I did it a few weeks ago. War doesn't get cheap until the 3rd or 4th week when you've lost absolutely everything.

And damned if I'd not fight back as long as I was capable. I wouldn't stand still and let someone kick my butt just so I'd be capable of paying them for the privilidge after the beating was over.

One other thing you have to factor in, so many alliances hate the NPO for past wrongs (even ones that helped NPO commit said wrongs). With them completely destroyed with no way to rebuild for 6-12 months, what is to stop all the people who loathe them and wish for them to disband from simply declaring war to finish the job as soon as they finish their reps to this segement of Karma?

With the attitude many have towards them you can hardly blame them for not trusting most anyone from Karma.

The one thing these terms are assuring is what EJay pointed out earlier, that this cycle will continue. At some point these alliances will be under the boot and will have these terms thrown in their face (although I expect at some point in the future the NPO will be blamed for giving out these terms rather than being the one that they were given to).

The only way to avoid the cycle continuing would be for NPO to not just disband, but for most of them to quit playing entirely.

This vengence minded mob has shown what happens when they filter into other alliances. They take their hatred and spread their propaganda and suddenly there are 15 alliances that hate you instead of the one that you defeated.

I do give credit to part of Karma, they truly tried to change things, but certain factions just want more of the same.

Unfortunately, more of the same means bad things for the current victors as they become the new targets of mass paranoia and hatred that seems to constantly envelope Bob.

Great post, that just about sums up a big portion of what I feel as well. It would be a perfect plan.

Here's a simpler monthly payment plan:

25 bank nations: 25*5*3per month*3mill&50 tech= 1.125 billion & 18750 tech per month

20 bank nations fund 100 nations in the 1k tech+ no money category. Each gets 3mill and sends 200 tech. 100nations*200tech*3cycles= 60,000 tech

1.125 billion a month would pay off the money reps in a little over 6 months. 78750 tech a month would pay the tech reps off in about 4 months.

The first category assumes 83% efficiency, giving 5 slots instead of 6 (they should nearly all have DRAs). The second category should all have DRAs. With 6 slots on all of them that's 120*250*3cyles= 90,000 tech. So that's 67% efficiency.

Azaghul, you can't really argue math. I mean, numbers never lie and a start fella can always work them to do just about anything that you need. The thing that you do not take into account is the list in slots due to people going inactive, not getting slots from the alliances needing to get paid in time You know there is a number of stupid things that hold up rep payments. 80k that we handled was a pain, the outrages amount that is requested would turn me gray. This is a damn game, I don't get paid to make sure that 8667 slots are delivered on time.

[Denial]

No one is out of nuke range in this war.

You have 5000ns nations getting blasted daily.

If these NPO nations decide to fight back, it's easy to spend several hundred million dollars in 2 weeks of war.

I know because I did it a few weeks ago. War doesn't get cheap until the 3rd or 4th week when you've lost absolutely everything.

And damned if I'd not fight back as long as I was capable. I wouldn't stand still and let someone kick my butt just so I'd be capable of paying them for the privilidge after the beating was over.

Okay. Cool story bro.

One other thing you have to factor in, so many alliances hate the NPO for past wrongs (even ones that helped NPO commit said wrongs). With them completely destroyed with no way to rebuild for 6-12 months, what is to stop all the people who loathe them and wish for them to disband from simply declaring war to finish the job as soon as they finish their reps to this segement of Karma?

With the attitude many have towards them you can hardly blame them for not trusting most anyone from Karma.

What a piss-poor argument. Firstly, the New Pacific Order will be under the protection of Karma forces whilst the surrender terms are in effect. It has been proven, on multiple occasions, that Pacifica would be capable of both paying reparations and beginning pervasive reconstruction during this time. Secondly, what has there been to stop outside parties attacking those alliances Pacifica has attacked and defeated in the past, after their surrender terms expired? (An amusing question, considering the two times that this has occurred, Pacifica itself has been responsible for it.) The surrender terms presented to the New Pacific Order did not prevent them from signing new treaties, nor did they propose to remove the alliance's ability to establish friendships that may lead to future treaties. They will have months of Karma protection in order to organise and plan their foreign affairs, as well as rebuild some of the damage inflicted in this war. Six months down the track, Pacifica will again be a 10 million strength alliance with hundreds of members, and a slew of alliances looking to fill the role of the Imperial Green Village (hi, Invicta!). To think they'll be relegated to the punching bag of the Cyberverse, as they transformed GATO and The Legion into in the past, is absolutely ridiculous.

The one thing these terms are assuring is what EJay pointed out earlier, that this cycle will continue. At some point these alliances will be under the boot and will have these terms thrown in their face (although I expect at some point in the future the NPO will be blamed for giving out these terms rather than being the one that they were given to).

The only way to avoid the cycle continuing would be for NPO to not just disband, but for most of them to quit playing entirely.

This vengence minded mob has shown what happens when they filter into other alliances. They take their hatred and spread their propaganda and suddenly there are 15 alliances that hate you instead of the one that you defeated.

I do give credit to part of Karma, they truly tried to change things, but certain factions just want more of the same.

Unfortunately, more of the same means bad things for the current victors as they become the new targets of mass paranoia and hatred that seems to constantly envelope Bob.

What you and your ilk are so willing to forget is that Pacifica began this 'cycle' by imposing harsh reparations on alliances meeting their defensive obligations. If Pacifica had not initiated this war without justification or provocation, they would not be receiving the same terms that they have been presented in the last few days. The New Pacific Order is finally facing the justice they deserve for their bellicose actions.

[Azaghul]

This isn't really my thing, so I could well be wrong, but it sure seems like 5 banks aren't going to be nearly enough to get people out of bill lock in an alliance the size of NPO after a war this long.

Maybe not, but that's not necessarily their first priority, and that aid can be extended by aid chains and such. Once the banks come out they can start aiding those people immediately and get a cycle or two in of just bill-lock aid while fighting.

Azaghul, you can't really argue math. I mean, numbers never lie and a start fella can always work them to do just about anything that you need. The thing that you do not take into account is the list in slots due to people going inactive, not getting slots from the alliances needing to get paid in time You know there is a number of stupid things that hold up rep payments. 80k that we handled was a pain, the outrages amount that is requested would turn me gray. This is a damn game, I don't get paid to make sure that 8667 slots are delivered on time.

I know, and that factor is included in the calculations I made.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Azaghul

[Lord Strider]

Maybe not, but that's not necessarily their first priority, and that aid can be extended by aid chains and such. Once the banks come out they can start aiding those people immediately and get a cycle or two in of just bill-lock aid while fighting.

I know, and that factor is included in the calculations I made.

At 83% That is a bit much.

[Baldr]

The NPO doesn't need your pity or your suggestions. They have the "best banking system in CN". They just don't want to use it right now because you're all watching. But man, it's the best.

It's stuff like this that makes me think "Are you guys paying attention at all?"

These reps are bigger than any which have every been given. And only 25% of the NPO is *allowed* to pay the reps. The people making up the terms are intentionally tying our hands, trying to make it impossible.

I will not be *allowed* to make any rep payments, because I'm not one of the people with over 1,000 tech.

Yes, our banks can do a lot. But when you limit the people who can make the payments to roughly 25% of the alliance, and many of those are *starting* at ZI, there are some serious limitations.

Perhaps you now know what it feels like to be in the position to surrender.

NPO does not get to dictate what terms they get. This isn't debate. This is surrender.

No, it's not. We haven't surrendered. And as long as we're only offered "Full surrender, let us nuke you all to ZI and make up terms later" nonsense, then we won't surrender.

If you want us to send you billions in $ and hundreds of thousands of tech, then you have to reach an agreement, not scream "Unconditional surrnder! Now!".

Karma has already mentioned that to avoid the Hippy nations from enduring more than 14 days of warfare a system would be implemented to be fair and keep extra damage from occurring beyond the 14 days.

... snip....

Honestly, I am not even in the negotiations personally

Exactly. People who are *not* making official offers are saying "Oh, that would be good". But the people making official offers are saying "No negotiation, we've made our final offer".

If we're down to questioning Bob Janova's knowledge of game mechanics, then you really have run out of arguments.

I question how fair Bob Janova is. When I was an applicant to NPO and new to the game, I got on #NSA and asked about a tech deal. I thought #NSA was essentailly a NPO and friends channel at the time. Bob Janova did my first tech deal, and he took advantage of me. I trusted that he had made a reasonable offer, and I paid off, but I've always remembered that he took advantage of a nube. Do I trust him? No, not really.

Here's a simpler monthly payment plan:

25 bank nations: 25*5*3per month*3mill&50 tech= 1.125 billion & 18750 tech per month

20 bank nations fund 100 nations in the 1k tech+ no money category. Each gets 3mill and sends 200 tech. 100nations*200tech*3cycles= 60,000 tech

1.125 billion a month would pay off the money reps in a little over 6 months. 78750 tech a month would pay the tech reps off in about 4 months.

The first category assumes 83% efficiency, giving 5 slots instead of 6 (they should nearly all have DRAs). The second category should all have DRAs. With 6 slots on all of them that's 120*250*3cyles= 90,000 tech. So that's 67% efficiency.

This ignores, like your previous stuff, that many of our nations are not allowed to send rep payments, and that we must always use 50% of our aid slots for Karma payments. Since only 25% of our nations are allowed to send to Karma, that means that at least 50% of our aid slots *CAN NOT BE USED*. Of the 25% of the nations (the 181, it was, and now it's less) that are allowed to send payment, many are already at ZI.

Karma has intentionally designed the terms to make sure we can't meet the terms.

I see no reason to allow you to nuke down our banks first, for peace at an undetermined date, then to send you reps for a month, only to have you say "You didn't meet the minimum payments this month, so we're back to war".

Edited June 16, 2009 by Baldr

[Vol Navy]

Okay. Cool story bro.

What a piss-poor argument. Firstly, the New Pacific Order will be under the protection of Karma forces whilst the surrender terms are in effect. It has been proven, on multiple occasions, that Pacifica would be capable of both paying reparations and beginning pervasive reconstruction during this time. Secondly, what has there been to stop outside parties attacking those alliances Pacifica has attacked and defeated in the past, after their surrender terms expired? (An amusing question, considering the two times that this has occurred, Pacifica itself has been responsible for it.) The surrender terms presented to the New Pacific Order did not prevent them from signing new treaties, nor did they propose to remove the alliance's ability to establish friendships that may lead to future treaties. They will have months of Karma protection in order to organise and plan their foreign affairs, as well as rebuild some of the damage inflicted in this war. Six months down the track, Pacifica will again be a 10 million strength alliance with hundreds of members, and a slew of alliances looking to fill the role of the Imperial Green Village (hi, Invicta!). To think they'll be relegated to the punching bag of the Cyberverse, as they transformed GATO and The Legion into in the past, is absolutely ridiculous.

What you and your ilk are so willing to forget is that Pacifica began this 'cycle' by imposing harsh reparations on alliances meeting their defensive obligations. If Pacifica had not initiated this war without justification or provocation, they would not be receiving the same terms that they have been presented in the last few days. The New Pacific Order is finally facing the justice they deserve for their bellicose actions.

Pacifica will be under protection until they pay the reps. That protection will end at that point I would assume.

I think you underestimate how quickly they will be able to rebuild. They have a lot of nations but it's a lot of small nations. They people who could get the rebuilding going will be giving aid. It is the plan of Karma to make sure Pacifica is down for at least 12 months.

I further think you overestimate how many friends they will be able to make after this war.

So what is to stop them from getting rolled again? There is much hate and a large number of people that want Pacifica to go away, cease to exist, be kaput. There will be little to stop them from banding together and rolling Pacifica all over again and the reaction will be "Lulz!! They did it to FAN now it's happening to them!!! Lulz!!!"

The only thing that may stop it is another war breaking out.

So it's hard to blame them for not exactly being trusting towards an angry mob who is shouting for their death.

For your last paragraph, Pacifica may have began the cycle (I really don't know if they were the first alliance to ever ask for terms/reps but I'm sure they'll be blamed for it anyway). But originally Karma claimed it was out to end the cycle of extremely harsh terms, I believe this was even stated by the Voice of Karma.

Certain alliances have tried this in this war and were villifed for it. I'm sure many feel they were suckered into war by those promises only to be ripped apart when they actually lived up to their word and what appeared to be the stated goal of Karma.

So as has been pointed out, the cycle will continue. The hate will flow. Bob will war. Nations will burn and terms will be draconian, even more so than these because the need to constantly one up. Alliances will disband because they don't have the will to continue. Their members will filter out and spread the hate and the same thing will happen over and over again.

Karma had one shot to try and change things as they claimed to want to do, but in the end revenge and grudge carrying ruled the day, all the light reps/white peace handed out earlier in the war will be forgotten. These terms will live on and set the standard for the future.

[Stonewall Jaxon]

These reps are bigger than any which have every been given. And only 25% of the NPO is *allowed* to pay the reps. The people making up the terms are intentionally tying our hands, trying to make it impossible.

Biggest reps? Maybe, I haven't personally checked the proportions. Worst terms? No

No, it's not. We haven't surrendered. And as long as we're only offered "Full surrender, let us nuke you all to ZI and make up terms later" nonsense, then we won't surrender.

Really? Well, that definitely sucks for me. Please get back at me by spending at least the next 2 years in peace mode

I question how fair Bob Janova is. When I was an applicant to NPO and new to the game, I got on #NSA and asked about a tech deal. I thought #NSA was essentailly a NPO and friends channel at the time. Bob Janova did my first tech deal, and he took advantage of me. I trusted that he had made a reasonable offer, and I paid off, but I've always remembered that he took advantage of a nube. Do I trust him? No, not really.

Took advantage in what way?

Karma has intentionally designed the terms to make sure we can't meet the terms.

Wouldn't be the first

[mhawk]

Just wondering about your sig involving wolfpack, didn't they get hit by IRON, not NPO?

[PrototyoeRuler]

Just wondering about your sig involving wolfpack, didn't they get hit by IRON, not NPO?

They were at war with tC. Learn your history.

NPO declared - http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=16532

Edited June 16, 2009 by PrototyoeRuler