Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Caliph]

RE: Caliph's last response to myself.

If that is who was responsible... they should share the blame. It's not like most of the alliances around here are democracies.. and all nations need to watch out for their own safety. I found my safety in the NPO, when I came to this world they treated me better and showed greater organization than any group I could have hoped to affiliate with. I joined up and they helped me build, I grew strong with their aid and their guidance and learned a lot about the systems in this game.

There are over 900 people who have benefited in like fashion and perhaps 10% of them are the ones that actually control the policy over what has offended the aggressor alliances.

By the logic of Karma, every soldier should be treated as if they are the head of state that ordered these "crimes" because that is the level of burden their offers are putting on the NPO. And who hasn't learned something from the NPO or benefited at some time from relationships with it? Enemies have changed over time, I can tell that by just reading the Wiki... but you can't tell me there isn't some good in this alliance worth saving. Many of us are loyal, noble, and we have no desire to abandon each other when your issues lie with a minority.

NpO has since been defeated in the NoCB war, and Electron Sponge left that alliance since.

Jonathan Brookbank has since been placed on several EZI lists, including IRON's, and I believe the NPO's and perhaps a few others.

He worked to get off of them, however i honestly don't know the status of that anymore.

GGA participated in this war on the NPO's side, and has gotten white peace.

The NPO, still led by Moo Cows, is getting its just rewards in this war.

Edit: so, 2 of the numerous alliances, the 2 who did most the planning, their leaders at the time have since been deposed in various fashions, and are still around, somewhere, in different alliances. both those alliances have gotten beat down and payed for those deeds.

The NPO, on the other hand, is just now on the receiving end.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Caliph

[Maelstrom Vortex]

And I assume you are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent enough to know just exactly what just is for all the NPO and its members. That you alone have the abillity to weigh the balances of time and measure the gains against the losses for all the people throughout bob to know exactly.. how much we owe the world?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Angrator]

The above is the real kicker to the terms.

This is course would mean much longer than 14 days or 2 rounds of war, 90% is steep for any alliance. And of course realize that a significant portion of our banks were built as such, it's not like they all have SDIs or other war related wonders. Oh and those that chose to be banks because they can't meet war needs to be on CN daily?

They'd be chop meat, you'd have nations not built for war and not really capable for war being attacked for prolonged rounds. Suiciding those actually capable of handling reparations sounds like a great idea.

90% may be steep, but I believe that it is doable. Karma is not putting the NPO into an infinite war like some claim. They allowed the NPO the out of being able to kick those nations out of the alliance. This is far more gracious than the NPO would have done, and you know it. Rather than assigning nations to destruction, Karma is letting you guys off easy.

To answer the second part of your argument I somehow doubt that the top nations are as big of teddybears as you are making them out to be. It might fit your Jesus complex, but not reality.

[AnCapistan]

GGA participated in this war on the NPO's side, and has gotten white peace.

Dude...study your stuff

GGA had to pay 2500 tech and 250 mil

[cncruzore85]

Class act, karma

[Caliph]

And I assume you are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent enough to know just exactly what just is for all the NPO and its members. That you alone have the abillity to weigh the balances of time and measure the gains against the losses for all the people throughout bob to know exactly.. how much we owe the world?

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean here.

I used to be in \m/, who was a staunch ally of the NPO until the NPO abandoned us during a war, refused to come to our aid both during the war, and after the war. I have never forgiven the NPO for that betrayal, and the NPO, to my knowledge, doesn't care that it betrayed an ally then, as I have seen similar behavior in a consistant manner from them.

I know the NPO has done bad things to plenty of alliances, and it is up to them to determine what is "right" retribution for those actions, what will make it "right", and so forth. My alliance is not at war with the NPO, so I have no say in the NPO's surrender terms.

If you are unhappy with them, I advise you to speak the alliances you are at war with, or their apparent representative of Londo.

[Caliph]

Dude...study your stuff

GGA had to pay 2500 tech and 250 mil

Really?

Hm, that makes me feel better that GGA didn't get off with white peace.

[o-dog]

Hey Moo, remember when you asked TDSM8 to pay more reps than we had? Remember when you changing the terms and holding us demilitarized for 6 months killed our alliance? Remember when you asked Athens for 6/7 of their tech? Remember when you held GATO in a viceroy for a year? Remember when you perma warred FAN? Remember all the people you forced out of this game? Remember all the homes you destroyed? Shut the $%&@ up. You are playing a pity boat when you deserve none. Im so sick of you guys trying to act like you deserve any better than this.

Excuse me NPO members and co. crying. Will one of you please respond to my post? Or have you already forgotten what you and yours did to me and mine.

At least this topic makes clear the motivation behind many in Karma; hate fuelled revenge.

They can get peace. They have been offered fair, reasonable and just terms, and have selected instead to remain at war.

They are not fair reasonable terms. Whatever happened to you Revanche, do you really need to be seen as one of the big guys that much?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

RE: Caliph

I think that question could be posed to anyone putting forth surrender terms of this magnitude.

I regret you were treated that way. I wish I had any control over it at the time.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Londo Mollari]

7 billion and 300k tech? I wish. Remember the pre-terms? Those currently add at least $7,250 billion and 245k tech, almost doubling the total to $14.25 billion and 545k tech -- that's 120% of the NPO's current tech.

The pre terms are included in these terms. Mainly by having the people come out and fight. :-p Since they're going to come out and fight, it's a bit silly to charge NPO a bunch of money for having them parked in PM for a bit, isn't it?

The pre-terms are stated to be in addition to offered terms. I have never seen Karma state that these figures include the pre-term amounts (although I'm pretty sure I saw them referred to as 'the base amount' in negotiations, implying otherwise). If they do and want to correct me here in this thread and state that any terms offered include the pre-terms, or that the pre-terms have been withdrawn as a ridiculous policy, I would be happy to admit my mistake.

Not that I perceive the multitude of loopholes, impossibilities and 'then we'll see how merciful we are's in the terms to be one massive trap designed to induce a 'this is Karma for FAN' redeclaration.

I gave you my word that these terms weren't designed for that and that I wouldn't allow it to happen.

[Angrator]

And I assume you are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent enough to know just exactly what just is for all the NPO and its members. That you alone have the abillity to weigh the balances of time and measure the gains against the losses for all the people throughout bob to know exactly.. how much we owe the world?

You should be glad that some people are not in that position. Instead you have leaders of Karma who continually offer peace. But guess what keeping on getting in the way?

Yeah surprise surprise. Pride. You guys lost the war. Stop talking your mouths off on the forums and talk to the people fighting you.

[Alterego]

The pre terms are included in these terms. Mainly by having the people come out and fight. :-p Since they're going to come out and fight, it's a bit silly to charge NPO a bunch of money for having them parked in PM for a bit, isn't it?

The pre terms already exceed the terms.

[Denial]

Trying to blame your allies for your crimes is pretty low. Take responsibility for your actions.

Do you have some sort of competition with PrideAssassin to see who can fit the most stupidity in the least number of words? It's been stated, time and time again, that neither Londo nor Athens are responsible for the surrender terms presented to the New Pacific Order. Eighteen alliances signed off on them, after lengthy discussions.

[Caliph]

RE: Caliph

I think that question could be posed to anyone putting forth surrender terms of this magnitude.

I regret you were treated that way. I wish I had any control over it at the time.

Whats done is done, I can't change it, and those responsible don't care to apologize and make it right, so ...

Anyway, I may not agree 100% with the terms the way they are written now, but they are doable by the NPO.

The pre terms already exceed the terms.

I'm not sure what part of "the pre terms are included in the terms" was complicated.

Londo said the pre terms are included in the totals here. So that means the pre terms are included in the totals, and do not need to be added on in addition to the totals presented here.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Caliph

[Maelstrom Vortex]

RE: Angrator

Offer peace at what cost? Debilitating everyone in our alliance for years? Making folks angry at you who you may not necessarily need to have angry at you.

I have talked to the people fighting me. There's not a one of them that wouldn't tell you that I fight without honor.

I would rather have someone in that position, because I can tell you right now the net gains made to Bob have almost certainly outweighed the mistakes of the NPO in its history. People have learned from their interactions with us. Alliances have improved. Some fell by the wayside.. and we made things interesting.

I have no pride. I am just a soldier, I serve and put in my time daily fighting for my people and my friends and allies. If you looked at my burnt cinder of a state, the only thing I have left is my integrity for what that's worth.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Angrator]

The pre terms already exceed the terms.

I guess we never would have got to this position if the NPO had actually fought the war then hey?

[Alterego]

Yeah surprise surprise. Pride. You guys lost the war. Stop talking your mouths off on the forums and talk to the people fighting you.

They dont want to talk they want at least another 2 weeks to bash NPO and bleed them of their warchests before turning them into a slave alliance.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I hope that's not true. All that desire for change only to become what they hated.

In a moral war.. achieving parity with your enemy is not a very good outcome. Especially if you managed to reform them only to become as bad as they were pre-war after.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[NEWBert]

I guess we never would have got to this position if the NPO had actually fought the war then hey?

Yes we had nukes just magically disappear, and we did no damage to any alliance we were at war with.

Come on now, it's quite clear on both sides that damage was done. The war was certainly fought, and I myself enjoyed fighting my opponents. They were honorable and in a sort of messed up way, made it worth fighting to near ZI.

The NPO has fought in this war, saying otherwise is ignorant.

[Angrator]

Offer peace at what cost? Debilitating everyone in our alliance for years?

I have talked to the people fighting me. There's not a one of them that wouldn't tell you that I fight without honor.

I would rather have someone in that position, because I can tell you right now the net gains made to Bob have almost certainly outweighed the mistakes of the NPO in its history. People have learned from their interactions with us. Alliances have improved. Some fell by the wayside.. and we made things interesting.

I have no pride. I am just a soldier, I serve and put in my time daily fighting for my people and my friends and allies. If you looked at my burnt cinder of a state, the only thing I have left is my integrity for what that's worth.

Your right. You are just a soldier if you accept whatever your leaders feed to you. No, I'm sorry the net gains that the NPO made have not outweighed their "mistakes" if you would like to call them that. When you make life hard for other people that is making things interesting? But when the same happens to you, it is what? A terrible tragedy? Do you want to wage a war or have a pity party?

I do have respect for real NPO warriors like you. I fought them previously and I respect them. You fought for your alliance. It's only fair that the top nations should too.

[Denial]

They are not fair reasonable terms. Whatever happened to you Revanche, do you really need to be seen as one of the big guys that much?

Well, we disagree. Further, if I wished to be seen as "one of the big guys", I'd be out here on the forums parading my accomplishments and developing my personality cult. What I am doing here in this topic is presenting the truth to the general public, arguing the position of Karma, and defending friends and allies against baseless accusations.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Okay..

Lets review..

Pre war NS of NPO: 24K estimated

Current NS of NPO: 6k - 7k estimated

Total lost strength: 75%+

Anyone who is saying we have not this war, is an outright liar because I'm sure that NS just magically vanished because admin came in and took it away. Saying we haven't fought or tried is pure propaganda and false.

Wanting to destroy the reamining 6k is simply wanting to make it impossible for us to recover.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Angrator]

I hope that's not true. All that desire for change only to become what they hated.

In a moral war.. achieving parity with your enemy is not a very good outcome. Especially if you managed to reform them only to become as bad as they were pre-war after.

I like it better the way another NPOer said it. I'll give you what he said.

I think you misread what I said. You're fighting us who you accuse of being the bad guys, and in fighting us, you've become the very monsters you sought to destroy. It's good they removed the radio silence because somebody needs to expose the complete BS that is the karma viewpoint.

And I'll give you the same response. Do you realize how funny that is coming from you? You're calling yourself a monster.

At least he was honest about his alliance. Can you be the same?

[Teriethien]

All that desire for change only to become what they hated.

Ironic.

Especially if you managed to reform them only to become as bad as they were pre-war after.

You realise that changing your stance on harsh terms only when they are directed against you isn't exactly the most convincing sign of a 'reformation', right?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Teriethien

[Angrator]

Okay..

Lets review..

Pre war NS of NPO: 24K estimated

Current NS of NPO: 6k - 7k estimated

Total lost strength: 75%+

Anyone who is saying we have not this war, is an outright liar because I'm sure that NS just magically vanished because admin came in and took it away. Saying we haven't fought or tried is pure propaganda and false.

Wanting to destroy the reamining 6k is simply wanting to make it impossible for us to recover.

I don't deny that the bottom three quarters have lost some infrastructure. But with the top nations acting as peace mode warriors, I have no doubt that the best CN banking system will rebuild the bottom half pretty quickly. They did it once before if you'll remember.