Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Branimir]

Of course, it isn't an NPO thread without Branimir.

Long time no see!

I will enjoy watching as people pick and tear your posts apart.

This random outbursts always work more in favor of the targeted person. You should have learn that by now.

Also feel free to try to depict my posts.

As we are "Karma", we could also simply take every single term that the NPO have issued and put it all together in a nice, organized, list and send it to them. ALL of them.

That is not really karma, that is revenge.

Nothing wrong with revenge, just call Bob Bob. Nobody will really mind at this point, the moral high ground is not important any longer, you won your enemy lost. Now you can drop the charade.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Branimir

[Henkie]

And that's meant to make us change our minds?

In every big war, the loser comes up being worse and having the fund their opponents via reps. I fail to see how this is any different, especially in comparison with some of your own wars such as GATO, which you ZI'd and then turned into your personal tech farm for several months under the guise of rebuilding the alliance.

Because paying the reps won't end the war. That's the central argument. There is no rational reason to accept the payment of reps if the only outcome is yet another war, for which, undoubtedly, new reps will be demanded. When we demanded reps, at the very least we offered the outlook of peace, it's why people pay reps, by not offering the chance of peace, there's no point in accepting.

At least we're being honest about wanting reps in this war rather than trying to dress it up as some noble act of charity.

Calling it "reps" is trying to dress it up. The money has no relation to damage sustained and is purely punitive. The fact that you want to continue war before payment of reps in itself proves this point.

[James Wilson]

That is not really karma, that is revenge.

Nothing wrong with revenge, just call Bob Bob. Nobody will really mind at this point, the moral high ground is not important any longer, you won your enemy lost. Now you can drop the charade.

It can actually be viewed as both, depending on how you look at it.

Revenge being, were are getting back at you for 3 years of terror; Karma being, you are getting what you dished out. Either term can apply.

[Freelancer]

You strike a hard barging, sir.

I do try good sir, I look for innovative and creative surrender terms...

We could take that one step further, where the video produced by Moo was submitted to digg and had to make the front page, with a little luck and enough diggs it would hit Diggnation to really add to the humiliation of defeat.

As for the Reps, I have no personal stake in that matter and have never had to endure any of your alliances past surrender terms ( Knock on Wood ) So I wont ever comment on them.

[Branimir]

I do try good sir, I look for innovative and creative surrender terms...

We could take that one step further, where the video produced by Moo was submitted to digg and had to make the front page, with a little luck and enough diggs it would hit Diggnation to really add to the humiliation of defeat.

You are starting to push it now

It can actually be viewed as both, depending on how you look at it.

Or don't drop the charade, and cop out on subjectivity of everything.

Whatever floats your boat. If you still feel that you have face to ride the moral high ground train based on how you are different and better, go right ahead.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Branimir

[AirMe]

OOC: 173 Page...seriously.

IC: It's good to see pacifican's coming out to play here again. Also, Hi Branimir.

[NoFish]

Additional context duly noted. Still, 300K tech + $8B reps is an "insult[ing]" counteroffer. As I said, I'm stunned and it doesn't matter what the original offer was -- could have been 1B tech and 500 Trillion. The fact remains, I've seen a day on Bob where 300K tech + $8B is an an insult.

That's completely understanding you.

It seems I was the one misunderstanding then, my apologies. I really suppose I have to agree with you - the scale of these terms, and everything else this war, is truly impressive.

[Branimir]

....the scale of ..... is truly impressive.

Thats what she said as well

(yes, my joking skills are mad)

[James Wilson]

Or don't drop the charade, and cop out on subjectivity of everything.

Whatever floats your boat. If you still feel that you have face to ride the moral high ground train based on how you are different and better, go right ahead.

We certainly have more face then you, that is for sure. I don't know if you remember, but you guys started this war when you spied to find out someone obtained a screen shot of your war chest requirements. You dug your own whole. Now we just have the pleasure of watching you try to climb out of it .

[NoFish]

Thats what she said as well

(yes, my joking skills are mad)

By god that is terrible! War Crime! War Crime!

[Branimir]

We certainly have more face then you, that is for sure. I don't know if you remember, but you guys started this war when you spied to find out someone obtained a screen shot of your war chest requirements. You dug your own whole. Now we just have the pleasure of watching you try to climb out of it .

Ah so yes, of course, now we are the ones that started this avalanche with spying lol

Of course this mountain didn't start tumbling down when we got spied upon, which is universally accepted act of war and what comes as a reaction in regards to it usually viewed as a defensive move.

You should stick with "you attacked during peace talks" mantra, that is so much better propaganda line which worked wonders, then what you are using now, although I don't know why am I dispensing this advice to you lol.

[Kung Fu Geeks]

I havent read through every page of this (who has time, 173 pages?!?!)

I will say this though

NPO was very bad in the past. Yup, they did alot of stuff that was considered horrible. Yep they deserve this beatdown.

But Karma? stop believing your own propaganda as well. Many, Many of you were directly involved in committing those same "crimes" as you call them. Aside from that, many many of the rest of you sat back and watched it happen and did nothing. Only a very small minority of you actually spoke out against the atrocities as you call them. You say that you're justification for the war isn't FAN GPA, or GATO, but yet you constantly bring them as such. Just admit that they are infact a part of your justifications, because the terms you presented sure as hell aren't inline with an attack on OV. They are terms presented as reparations for every crime you percieve NPO to have ever committed and FAN, GPA, and GATO seem to be very high up on your list of crimes NPO committed.

NPO, You complain that the terms are unreasonable. Guess what, it is 2 things. 1) retribution for past "crimes", 2) to destroy your alliance to a point that it will take years to recover from. the current reps solve #1, but they do not accomplish #2 which is why the 90% and 14 days thing come into play. You're counter offer does not accomplish #2. I dont see how any counter offer you could possibly make with accomplish #2 unless you send out all tech and sell off infra. Guess what though. You deserve it. Of course, several of the alliances trying to impose this on you deserve it as well. You however do need to accept the fact that your alliance will not exist as it does today in the future. You will either be a beaten down tech farm, be in permanant peace mode, or be disbanded. Those are going to be the only options that your aggressors allow for you. But don't worry. Karma does not just circle around once and stop. It keeps coming back to bite people in the $@! and those calling themselves karma will eventually be on the other side.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Kung Fu Geeks

[NoFish]

Ah so yes, of course, now we are the ones that started this avalanche with spying lol

Of course this mountain didn't start tumbling down when we got spied upon, which is universally accepted act of war and what comes as a reaction in regards to it usually viewed as a defensive move.

You should stick with "you attacked during peace talks" mantra, that is so much better propaganda line which worked wonders, then what you are using now, although I don't know why am I dispensing this advice to you lol.

OV never spied on you. Blackstone Collusion spied on you (assuming they weren't actually an NPO entrapment plots). BC then offered some screenshots to OV who was like, "Uh, okay, thanks, I guess" and as we all know "Every alliance accepts information."

Also you attacked during peace talks.

Edit: And tried to surrender without informing TORN as well as something about FAN and GATO.

Edited June 15, 2009 by NoFish

[Branimir]

OV never spied on you. Blackstone Collusion spied on you (assuming they weren't actually an NPO entrapment plots). BC then offered some screenshots to OV who was like, "Uh, okay, thanks, I guess" and as we all know "Every alliance accepts information."

Well it was a bit more then "Uh, okay, thanks, I guess", and more "Okay, Ill accept more, we have a deal ship them".

But this was already debated, the irc logs scrutinized and interpretations from them made.

At this point this is not anymore important really. At this point war isn't about OV at all is it?

Also you attacked during peace talks.

Thats my boy. +1

Edited June 15, 2009 by Branimir

[enderland]

Are there still people out there who believe that Blackstone was actively working against the NPO?

Just read the logs that are the cause of this war if you really believe that - no intelligent person trying to undermine the NPO would be so stupid as to give away screenshots for literally no reason unless they were trying to get caught.

Though of course that assumes intelligence to begin with

The CB factory with Blackstone worked just as planned, what did not work was NPOs response and actions taken on it. It would have worked perfectly had you not attacked in negotiations - taking out OV and the majority of CnG and SF. But alas, you messed up.

[Haflinger]

It appears as though they're trying to buy their way out of damage.

They ARE trying to buy their way out of damage. This is not in dispute. The question that needs to get resolved is the price.

The whole point of paying reparations is to not be damaged any more. That's why people agree to peace settlements that involve them helping their enemies. They don't want to give you 8 billion dollars because they love you. You didn't ask for 7 billion dollars from them because you think they love you.

[Haflinger]

There Were No Plans For Offensive Operations.

The Hoo-Grinch logs say otherwise.

And Chairman Hal used to be Ragnarok government. He's an insider on this issue.

[Branimir]

Are there still people out there who believe that Blackstone was actively working against the NPO?

I am a leader on this planet for over 3 years. I really saw a lot, you know. Was amazed, baffled many times.

But even I can still face palm at things I read here. Dont ever change CN, and I mean that lol

[Starcraftmazter]

So lets see

time frame was in years (lets take spring 06 as time 0)

0 = 800mil

1 = 2.1 billion (2.625x over 1 year)

3 = 16 billion (7.6x over 2 years)

Clearly we have a heck of an exponential curve in terms of inflation

I fail to see what point you are trying to make

Oh yah we can only have 100 nations paying it (being VERY conservative in tech damage done)

By my count, there are over 300 nations which could contribute more than 50 tech to the reps payments.

[Haflinger]

Are there still people out there who believe that Blackstone was actively working against the NPO?

Just read the logs that are the cause of this war if you really believe that - no intelligent person trying to undermine the NPO would be so stupid as to give away screenshots for literally no reason unless they were trying to get caught.

Blackstone have in fact claimed that their plan was to get caught, and what they were trying to do was to bait NPO by giving them enough of a CB to cause NPO to attack but not enough of a CB so that they'd get support from their allies.

It strikes me as an incredibly stupid plan. The weird thing about it, though, is that it's plausible given the facts of the situation, and if it was the actual plan, it seems to have worked.

[Haflinger]

By my count, there are over 300 nations which could contribute more than 50 tech to the reps payments.

If the nations paying the tech reps out are being supplied tech from other NPO nations, then they're not sending out 250 tech every cycle because they have incoming slots of aid, and you need to go back and do the math on how long it's going to take for them to send the reps in those circumstances.

(safe to say it'll be ... even longer. again.)

[NoFish]

They ARE trying to buy their way out of damage. This is not in dispute. The question that needs to get resolved is the price.

The whole point of paying reparations is to not be damaged any more. That's why people agree to peace settlements that involve them helping their enemies. They don't want to give you 8 billion dollars because they love you. You didn't ask for 7 billion dollars from them because you think they love you.

Okay, yeah, I had that coming. I worded that really poorly. Let me try to put this in a way that doesn't make me look stupid.

By increasing the reps by such a small amount (in relative terms, again, around 10%) in exchange for letting off a huge amount of physical and economic damage it implies that we care more about lining our coffers than defeating the enemy. If the offer had been higher (say, around 25% of the total - the numbers magicninja posted a few pages ago, e.g.) it would be reasonable - perhaps not yet acceptable, but not insulting either.

[Bob]

The Hoo-Grinch logs say otherwise.

Where does Hoo plan an offensive attack in those logs? Or state that they have planned one?

I see prep for defense, not offense.

And Chairman Hal used to be Ragnarok government. He's an insider on this issue.

With no bias against them at all, right?

[Starcraftmazter]

If the nations paying the tech reps out are being supplied tech from other NPO nations, then they're not sending out 250 tech every cycle because they have incoming slots of aid, and you need to go back and do the math on how long it's going to take for them to send the reps in those circumstances.

Nobody is forcing this aid on them. If NPO doesn't want to be efficient about paying reps - that's their fault. Given that NPO claims they don't have enough money for anything, I don't even know where they plan to get rebuilding money.

Liars.

[enderland]

Nobody is forcing this aid on them. If NPO doesn't want to be efficient about paying reps - that's their fault. Given that NPO claims they don't have enough money for anything, I don't even know where they plan to get rebuilding money.

Liars.

Probably from their enemies (it's what they did with GATO at least).