Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Essenia]

The vast majority of your alliance with any notable fighting capability is in peace mode, sitting on piles of money.

Before the war NPO had 160+ nations over 8k infra. How many do they have now?

[Shodemofi-NPO]

I think it's funny that KARMA thinks it is a good idea to try to crush the NPOers as much as they can. Not only is it amazingly hypocritical (blah blah white peace, EZI is terrible, how can you be so harsh to other alliances), but it is only going to create such a level of hate for the 500+ members still hardcore in the NPO that it will certainly come back around.

They can stay in peace mode for another 35 years with their war chests...so keep the offers coming I guess?

I think it's even funnier that you're trying to pretend the NPO plays nice and makes friends with people who give them easy terms. If I recall correctly, the NPO calls Great War 3 the War of Retribution. Retribution for being beaten in Great War 1, not for getting harsh terms, for people simply warring against them. Don't try to pretend there will be any less of a grudge even if you guys were to get white peace. No one's buying it.

[Sequoia Throne]

The vast majority of your alliance with any notable fighting capability is in peace mode, sitting on piles of money.

See edit: I was 75k NS before this war, now I'm 15k NS. Omega battalion (50k+ NS) was huge before this war. Now not so much.

[Aya Reiko]

ooc: should have said the 20s then. By the 30s, the Weimar Republic was already doomed (after the death of Stresseman basically. As for Versailles, the Allies were correct to impose harsh terms. Germany was the aggressor nation and deserved to be punished. It is quite likely that Germany, like NPO, would have gotten involved in another major war even if it had been given reasonable terms.

ooc-

Except, as I pointed out earlier, the harsh terms became the fuel to the fire. And, in case you haven't noticed, the concept of revenge has become a popular rationale for Karma nations. If they aren't careful, it too, in due time, may become a popular rationale for Hegemonic nations too.

By my use of the 30's and 40's, I'm implying the point of no return had already been crossed. The damage done by the Treaty of Versailles can no longer be undone, and the result; an even bigger, bloodier war.

This is what I'm getting at, if Karma wants more war, then go for the severe route and try to get blood from the stone. There are consequences to this route, though. It may not happen in 6 months, it may not happen in a year, but, eventually, the aftermath of this war will result in the beginning of yet another war. Isn't this logic precisely a major reason why many alliances are involved in this war? Isn't "Consequences for Your Actions" a major rallying cry for the Karmic side?

But if they want the cycle of war and violence to possibly come to an end, Karma must rethink just what they want.

[Choader]

Before the war NPO had 160+ nations over 8k infra. How many do they have now?

Far too many.

[NoFish]

This is what I'm getting at, if Karma wants more war, then go for the severe route and try to get blood from the stone. There are consequences to this route, though. It may not happen in 6 months, it may not happen in a year, but, eventually, the aftermath of this war will result in the beginning of yet another war. Isn't this logic precisely a major reason why many alliances are involved in this war? Isn't "Consequences for Your Actions" a major rallying cry for the Karmic side?

But if they want the cycle of war and violence to possibly come to an end, Karma must rethink just what they want.

Right, but the problem is...

I think it's even funnier that you're trying to pretend the NPO plays nice and makes friends with people who give them easy terms. If I recall correctly, the NPO calls Great War 3 the War of Retribution. Retribution for being beaten in Great War 1, not for getting harsh terms, for people simply warring against them. Don't try to pretend there will be any less of a grudge even if you guys were to get white peace. No one's buying it.

You've threatened us how many times in this thread alone and expect us to believe that you'll just let bygones be bygones, water under the bridge, etc. if we let you off with light terms?

[MisterShadow]

This fear of regrowing and coming to knock down your door is interesting.

1. It assumes that we are vastly superior in diplomacy, nation building, and war (and I mean vastly)

and

2. You will either lose all your members or you will be stupid in building your nations.

This game does have numbers involved. Right now it is probably still like 80mil + against us. How is it even remotely possible for us to gain 80mil in order to beat you guys down at all?

[Teriethien]

ooc-

Except, as I pointed out earlier, the harsh terms became the fuel to the fire. And, in case you haven't noticed, the concept of revenge has become a popular rationale for Karma nations. If they aren't careful, it too, in due time, may become a popular rationale for Hegemonic nations too.

By my use of the 30's and 40's, I'm implying the point of no return had already been crossed. The damage done by the Treaty of Versailles can no longer be undone, and the result; an even bigger, bloodier war.

This is what I'm getting at, if Karma wants more war, then go for the severe route and try to get blood from the stone. There are consequences to this route, though. It may not happen in 6 months, it may not happen in a year, but, eventually, the aftermath of this war will result in the beginning of yet another war. Isn't this logic precisely a major reason why many alliances are involved in this war? Isn't "Consequences for Your Actions" a major rallying cry for the Karmic side?

But if they want the cycle of war and violence to possibly come to an end, Karma must rethink just what they want.

OOC:

Actually. What caused Germany to come after the allies with the a vengence is the fact that incredibly harsh terms were imposed and then not enforced. Indemnities that by all acounts would take generations to pay off created resentment amongst the Germans, but this and other military limitations failed to actually keep Germany down because they could not be enforced - such as France's failure to squeeze wealth from the country when it had none. It's also important to note that the Versailles terms helped exacerbate the effects of the Great Depression when it hit by creating a chaining effect from America to Europe (Americans called in loans to Germans who were relying on it pay reparation to Allies) and that it was the Great Depression that finally swept the Nazi party into power. It was also the Great Depression that allowed Germany to go to war against a largely unprepared France and Britain, whose military were severely underfunded even while Germany secretly embarked upon a massive rearmament project. Britain thus had little choice but to practice appeasement - as much as that policy is damned now - since it lacked the military capacity to stop Germany had the war started any earlier, whatever other leaders thought at the time. Hitler's self professed greatest mistake was that he didn't go to war any earlier than he did, while the Allies were wholly unprepared.

Germany did eventually pay off the reparations, after WWII. But this time, the Alllies rebuilt the German economy first.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is better off to give light terms to begin with, than to impose harsh terms that could not be enforced (and the reparations originally imposed at Versailles were indeed practically impossible to pay off and had to be slashed before the ink had dried). But really comparisions between RL and CN hardly makes any sense.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

This fear of regrowing and coming to knock down your door is interesting.

1. It assumes that we are vastly superior in diplomacy, nation building, and war (and I mean vastly)

and

2. You will either lose all your members or you will be stupid in building your nations.

This game does have numbers involved. Right now it is probably still like 80mil + against us. How is it even remotely possible for us to gain 80mil in order to beat you guys down at all?

I bet they said the same thing after Great War 1.

[wickedj]

I think it's funny that KARMA thinks it is a good idea to try to crush the NPOers as much as they can. Not only is it amazingly hypocritical (blah blah white peace, EZI is terrible, how can you be so harsh to other alliances), but it is only going to create such a level of hate for the 500+ members still hardcore in the NPO that it will certainly come back around.

They can stay in peace mode for another 35 years with their war chests...so keep the offers coming I guess?

I thought they were broke? Most NPOers in this thread claim those in peace mode have been beaten down and dont have that much left..which is it?

[King Srqt]

Oh please, you can't believe anything coming out of Doitzel's mouth.

Please point me to all the instances of Doitzel being proven to be a liar I will work on my list about your alliance leaders. we will see who ends up with a bigger list.

[NEWBert]

I thought they were broke? Most NPOers in this thread claim those in peace mode have been beaten down and dont have that much left..which is it?

As it's been repeated, the only NPO nations in prolonged peace are the banks (and senators). Those entering peace are only there for 2 rounds tops, barring those that break orders.

No one is just camping out in peace that isn't supposed to. Government, Milcom, general body republic, etc. have all fought honorably.

[MisterShadow]

I bet they said the same thing after Great War 1.

I wasnt around for GWI. But I think the fact it wasnt like a 10:1 NS ratio at the time it ended, and 2 I dont think there was that many people against them

[Starcraftmazter]

See edit: I was 75k NS before this war, now I'm 15k NS. Omega battalion (50k+ NS) was huge before this war. Now not so much.

I don't see how that is at all relevant. You were referring to the future, and not to the juxtaposition of the present and current, and I commented on your comment. My point was that you are not ready to face the war, but only ready to hide in peace mode. This has nothing to do with your or anyone else's losses to date.

[MisterShadow]

I thought they were broke? Most NPOers in this thread claim those in peace mode have been beaten down and dont have that much left..which is it?

There are many that have basically no money left, and they are in peace but not banks. Then there are banks. I guess you can always look at the stats chart and see which have changed very little in infra to determine which are banks if you were so inclined. But it isnt anywhere near the 250 I have been hearing. If I had slipped into peace mode last week (yes I could have). I would have still lost over 3k tech, 1 billion and 11k infra, I wouldnt label me as a bank.

[Meer Republic]

This thread is a war crime.

[Azhrarn]

If you know anything about leading an alliance then you know that if you destroy the banks, there's nothing to put humpty dumpty back together again once it's taken its great fall.. that means reparations would be outright oppressive atop that. The terms have called for the banks to have 2 weeks of highly destructive war.. almost certain nuclear, that will render them to close to zi most likely.. meaning.. there won't be anyone left able to rebuild and with the reps.. rebuilding would be nigh eternal in coming. Which is both bad for recipient and terms bondsman.

The mandatory nuclear medicine clause needs to go.

Is this then the reason why the NPO was so anxious to force all GATO nations out of peace mode?

Justice thy name is Karma.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Azhrarn

[Magus Rules]

Is this then the reason why the NPO was so anxious to force all GATO nations out of peace mode?

Justice thy name is Karma.

Again another broken disk......must be the heat that is deforming the vinyl

[Random]

Hey Moo, remember when you asked TDSM8 to pay more reps than we had? Remember when you changing the terms and holding us demilitarized for 6 months killed our alliance? Remember when you asked Athens for 6/7 of their tech? Remember when you held GATO in a viceroy for a year? Remember when you perma warred FAN? Remember all the people you forced out of this game? Remember all the homes you destroyed? Shut the $%&@ up. You are playing a pity boat when you deserve none. Im so sick of you guys trying to act like you deserve any better than this.

Won the *%#$ing thread. You deserve a medal.

[Manwe]

Saying Austria-Hungary started the war is like saying GGA started the Hyperion part of the Coalition War. AH was in a slightly better situation, but they only went away because Germany encouraged them to do so and promised them full support

Actually Austria-Hungary started the war, and being the loser in a war Germany should be punished, but not to the degree it did.

But anyway, how this thread got to 130+ pages is beyond me

That idea worked out well for Europe in the 1930's and 40's.

Startlingly, OOC tangents should be marked as such. Warnings will go out for continued OOC discussion without the appropriate tags. And, of course, do ensure that these kinds of tangents remain relevant to the actual subject at hand.

[Vol Navy]

Funny thread for the most part.

Lots of hatred, bitterness and No U from both sides.

It boils down to one thing from Karma from what I can see.

Fear.

Fear that Pacifica will rise like Jason or Michael and come for them someday in the future.

So certain alliances want to put that off as long as possible because it's really impossible to avoid forever barring forcing NPO completely off Bob.

Many aren't really taking into account that rebuilding now is VASTLY different than it was after GWI. Hell, when I started playing a couple years ago 6000 infra and 2000 tech was a HUGE nation. Now that's nothing. It's going to take NPO a looong time to pay these reps and rebuild into anything resembling the power they were.

I've read some other incredible posts on here. People who literally said that if you weren't in the NPO you were on a death list. I don't remember what page that was on but it was in the last 20 or so pages.

Bravo Karma/Vox etc. Painting the picture that extreme and getting a large block to believe it was a masterstroke.

I've even saw people from certain "reformed" hegemony alliances posting about how evil NPO destroyed entire alliances singlehandedly. I guess they forgot they were rolling tanks in the same wars and helping Pacifica every step of the way.

It's amazing to me that a 1000 nation alliance kept 29,000 other nations under the bootheel for 2 years but many people, even Pacifica's allies in the weeks leading up to the war have members who take the bait and run with it. They now seem to believe that Pacifica was actually repressing them while they won wars, stole land and tech and piled up stats in the peace and stability of Q/NPO.

I guess in the end it's going to boil down to eternal war vs getting what you can while you can from Pacifica.

I would personally find it the height of hilarity if the next big one breaks out while this one is going on and some of these alliances suddenly found themselves fighting each other and on two fronts, trying to enfore eternal war on NPO while defending against the hordes invading from other alliances.

I do have a question to many of those that have nothing but absolute hatred of NPO.

Will anything less than NPO disbanding and actually having many, if not all of current NPO gov quit the game completely satisfy you? Would that actually make you able to move on past some hurt you felt from an action 1,2 even 3+ years ago?

I would honestly shake the hands of any alliances on the war front against us in TPF right now and let this epic beating go by the wayside no matter the reps/terms we're offered unless they involve disbandment/expelling members. Because if CN has one constant, we're all going to get a beating someday, this is ours.

Clearly many of you have a deep hatred for some past wrong, but many have a deep hatred even though they benifitted directly from being closely allied to NPO for a long time. I guess that goes back to the masterful propaganda war Karma waged for several months before this conflict started.

My final thought, this may very well be the only war in IC or OOC history where the losing party was given terms that reflected not only the ending of the conflict they were in, but every action they've ever taken in their entire existance and even some actions they weren't even wholly responsible for.

:::OOC::: It's like giving Japan terms at the end of WWII for things they did 1000, 800, 500, and 300 years before as well as things they did during WWII. /:::OOC:::

[Lord of the Port]

Am I entirely reading this right? NPO would not have a problem in decommissioning their nuclear arsenal indefinitely if the peace mode and 1k tech terms were dropped? I'm pretty sure we could work with this.

I am pretty sure Moo tried to work with this, but his offers were refused, and no counter offers were made. We were told the offered terms were final. That's not really "we could work with this".

[Magus Rules]

A very good analysis Vol Navy.

[Zombie Glaucon]

That idea worked out well for Europe in the 1930's and 40's.

OOC:

It pains greatly me that this historical "truth" has become popular. All of Germany's claims that they couldn't pay were shown to be not true, and the real dollar amount that they had to pay was decreased radically many times from the first figure through to when the German government decided they weren't going to pay any more reps.

Try reading original sources, kids. Textbooks don't cut it.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Zombie Glaucon

[Zombie Glaucon]

It boils down to one thing from Karma from what I can see.

Fear.

Fear that Pacifica will rise like Jason or Michael and come for them someday in the future.

So certain alliances want to put that off as long as possible because it's really impossible to avoid forever barring forcing NPO completely off Bob.

Yeah, who'd be concerneed that an alliance that calls it "The War of Retribution" would ever come back looking to settle a grudge much much later? Madness!

:::OOC::: It's like giving Japan terms at the end of WWII for things they did 1000, 800, 500, and 300 years before as well as things they did during WWII. /:::OOC:::

This analogy would be apt if everyone fighting in WW2 was over a thousand years old. The things NPO have done aren't ancient history; we've been around for all of them.