Sumeragi Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 There is a way around the whole infiltrating a spy into an ethnically homogeneous society, You bring in a spymaster into the country and recruit some disaffected locals or bribe some greedy local in the area you want to check out to do all the actual legwork. Then the spymaster sits back in the embassy as a cultural attaché or some such thing and coordinates his local spys. That is how it is actually done in RL a lot of the time. So nobody is totally immune to spys unless you want to be totally isolationist with no embassies and closed borders. I couldn't contest the totally immune thing. However, I have this “Immigration Control Law” that would make it very hard to recruit people without being noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firestorm Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 I was thinking along the lines of “I have higher odds, so I can instantly bribe any low level offici even if I never RPed having a spy in you nation, crack and understand codes even if the language is very diffenert from mine, and relay the information back even if your communication infrastructure is isolated from the world and I don't have the short burst radios used by subs.”A guy named Frost once did that. In the same RP, LVN contrasted him by showing how he could figure out something without having to resort to godmoding. Frost was attempting to control the actions of your citizens. Hence, his actions were invalid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumeragi Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Frost was attempting to control the actions of your citizens. Hence, his actions were invalid. I am just giving an example of how extreme going by odds can be. Although I understand LVN's concerns, frankly there is always a loophole to everything. All that is required is thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeVentNoir Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 There is a way around the whole infiltrating a spy into an ethnically homogeneous society, You bring in a spymaster into the country and recruit some disaffected locals or bribe some greedy local in the area you want to check out to do all the actual legwork. Then the spymaster sits back in the embassy as a cultural attaché or some such thing and coordinates his local spys. That is how it is actually done in RL a lot of the time. So nobody is totally immune to spys unless you want to be totally isolationist with no embassies and closed borders. Uh yeah. So... About that.... A guy named Frost once did that. In the same RP, LVN contrasted him by showing how he could figure out something without having to resort to godmoding. Links? Your IG odds are 70% to succeed against the target nation. You send X amount of spies (you decide that).Your target is this Its locked in a room, in a standard type military base, with hundreds guards/military personnel, cameras, locked doors (electronic and deadbolt), security codes, gates, and alarms. Simply put, find a guy who has legitimate access to it, place him under discrete observation, wait til he leaves the base, abduct him, apply MICE, then have it fetch it for you. Easy. Back to what I keep repeating, use odds to determine the over all success, then collaborate with the other guy to do that RP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasili Markov Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) I couldn't contest the totally immune thing. However, I have this “Immigration Control Law” that would make it very hard to recruit people without being noticed. Someone who is allowed for some other reason to be there could do the recruiting or alternatively citizens could be recruited on their holidays elsewhere and when they return .... Some measures will make spying on your secret projects harder like only recruiting loyal members of the ruling elite as your staff for these projects, but this will seriously limit the pool of potential talent you have to choose from and make for slower progress on projects. You sacrifice speed for security on a project in this case. Your immigration control law is also a good idea and would reduce the chances of success of any potential spy ring setting up but it would only make it harder for one to establish itself, it still could be done by someone with a reasonably good plan. But I agree nobody is totally immune from spys and there will always be a way for someone to get a "man on the inside" of a project and all anyone can do is make it hard (but not impossible) for them to do so. But I personally choose not to perform spy ops in CNRP since this would give away a stat that is best kept hidden for various reasons. Edited June 6, 2009 by Vasili Markov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumeragi Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Links? http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=37574 Frost's BS is in the last post of the second page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firestorm Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Back to what I keep repeating, use odds to determine the over all success, then collaborate with the other guy to do that RP. People seem to be more or less saying the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 And I'm not going to recognise spy odds magically getting people though my security systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 'cept HK-47 said no system is impenetrable so if I get 100% odds then we're going to have to work something out, you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 And I'm not going to recognise spy odds magically getting people though my security systems. 'cept HK-47 said no system is impenetrableso if I get 100% odds then we're going to have to work something out, you know? This, Baron. Systems are never perfect, no matter how much propoganda you throw to make them. Every system has flaws and even bugs or glitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Yes, but I'm not going to accept silly numbers to get though them. You're going to need to RP getting though them by actually thinking. Sorry to throw you an actual challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Yes, but I'm not going to accept silly numbers to get though them. You're going to need to RP getting though them by actually thinking. Sorry to throw you an actual challenge. Refusing to work something out because you know they're going to get through way to be the bigger man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Refusing to work something out because you know they're going to get throughway to be the bigger man! I'm refusing to recognize someone breaking the laws of physics and magically teleporting though a steel door. Way to use an ad hominem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) I'm refusing to recognize someone breaking the laws of physics and magically teleporting though a steel door.Way to use an ad hominem. I was making a valid point. 1. You ignore the stats part of it, saying that they need to RP it all 2. You know that because of their 90-100% odds, they won't be able to get anything with a new rule change 1 + 2 = 3 3. By ignoring the stats and making RP to where you have a completely closed society and it's "impossible" to get through to you, you're directly circumventing HK-47's ruling that all systems can be penetrated. If they can't be penetrated by RP (as you made it) then they have to be penetrated by stats, which you won't allow. edit: I wasn't trying to anger you, by the way. The intention of the comment was to provide an outside view that you might be viewed as conflicted in your opinions due to your weaker status and being surrounded by enemies. Edited June 6, 2009 by Sargun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) 1. The Republic of Mariehamm is NOT a closed society. 2. I never said it was impenetrable. I just said people had to actually use their brains to RP around defenses I RP. If we ignore RP's anti-spy defenses, why can't we ignore RP's land defenses and simply use IG stats to control who wins a war? People can get though my RP defenses, they just need to *gasp* RP IT AND BE CREATIVE! Just like real life! Our intelligence services can't just say "our nation is bigger, and puts more money into spying, thus we just walk past everything they have set up". We had intelligence failures on IRAQ for christ's sake. Look at that country, it's a 3rd world country and we completely misunderstood what they had while using the world's best damn intelligence services! I'm asking for people to be resonable and understand that they need to actually think to get past other people's thought-out defenses. Otherwise it's just an "Who has the oldest country" award. Edited June 6, 2009 by BaronUberstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 1. The Republic of Mariehamm is NOT a closed society.2. I never said it was impenetrable. I just said people had to actually use their brains to RP around defenses I RP. If we ignore RP's anti-spy defenses, why can't we ignore RP's land defenses and simply use IG stats to control who wins a war? People can get though my RP defenses, they just need to *gasp* RP IT AND BE CREATIVE! Just like real life! Our intelligence services can't just say "our nation is bigger, and puts more money into spying, thus we just walk past everything they have set up". We had intelligence failures on IRAQ for christ's sake. Look at that country, it's a 3rd world country and we completely misunderstood what they had while using the world's best damn intelligence services! I'm asking for people to be resonable and understand that they need to actually think to get past other people's thought-out defenses. Otherwise it's just an "Who has the oldest country" award. That was stated constantly, CN odds decide the end results, something will be worked out when those are rolled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) That was stated constantly, CN odds decide the end results, something will be worked out when those are rolled. I don't want CN odds deciding the results. I refuse to recognise a single dice roll deciding the fate of my intel. I'd compromise if there was a dice roll at say, every significant barrier. 1. Entering the country -Roll to see if false passport tricks guard with the CN odds -RP result with player 2. Getting onto government/military property -Roll to see if you sneak past defenses/trick guards with CN odds -RP result with player 3. Getting into building -Roll to see if you manage to get in. -RP how with player 4. Getting intel -Roll again -RP again 5. Getting out -Roll again -RP again a 5 step dice system. The smaller countries still have a chance but your CN odds are still used. Edited June 6, 2009 by BaronUberstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Honestly, entering the country doesn't seem like it should need a roll if it's not a closed society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahsir Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) I wouldn't mind uberstein's method only if people don't abuse it with "I got a success. Now your door is open" type lazy RP that might occur. That way if you RP an elaborate system there are multiple chances of failure. Also just the same that no system is impossible, no spy is forever successful. Don't try and hamstring the system, but make the odds the super star. Edited June 6, 2009 by Tahsir Re Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah Tintagyl Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Here's another problem I see with this as I see with any "matter of conflict" RP here. The odds let you know when you actually succeeded. Otherwise you'll have the owner of the country saying..."But wait...my steel barricaded door has an alarm system." Also from what I know about spying, which isn't a great deal, but anyways. This isn't Bond, the spy isn't going to disarm a nuclear weapon. Like spying in CNRP...maybe the spy could insight propaganda. Cause a riot during a war so your country can't participate. "No that can't happen...all my people love me..." Very doubtful, I RP a cult of personality, but if it came down to something like this, I would be happy to have a riot in my country so that the Hansa would be taken out of war. Civil war would be an extreme, but if the plot was relevant... As to the intel...is everyone's intel buried in bunkers? Sure missile locations, but like if you wanted to cause problems I'd be like... Roll get into the country...awesome Spy leaves an envelope of bio terror somewhere and unleashes it. Job done...(sorry for the gruesome example, In Civilization you can poison a sewer system so there you go) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevz Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 This is how I see it for syping. Odds are for getting into a nation and past its borders and that is for IG stats use. The actual spying is upto RP. The reason for this is even if you have 100000 more tech than me and 90% odss if I have a locked, alaramed and guarded steel doorway you will have to rp past it. Also to those that say IG stats over RP then does that mean in wars we use IG stats and only rp the damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Honestly, entering the country doesn't seem like it should need a roll if it's not a closed society. Even the USA has boarder patrols along the Canadian boarder. Do you think a country surrounded by enemies in Europe wouldn't have a boarder patrol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargun II Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Even the USA has boarder patrols along the Canadian boarder. Do you think a country surrounded by enemies in Europe wouldn't have a boarder patrol? And a person without a gun or felony could just waltz right in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberstein Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 And a person without a gun or felony could just waltz right in. On the USA boarder yes, but on the Mariehamm Boarders they would do a quick check, if you looked suspicious turn you away. Nothing dangerous and you could always try again at a different boarder station. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) So how WOULD you get a cracker-white caucasian guy to successfully infiltrate a nation of, say, Africans of a particularly dark skin tone? You don't, you do what smart intelligence agencies do, you recruit ex-patriots of the nation you're targeting.. dur hur hur. Get them a valid ID by buying someone out. Make sure the ID has a clean record.. and send them straight through normal customs. Outside genetic fingerprints there's practically no sure way of nailing down identities.. and that is only because you absolutely must take your body with you wherever you go. I, on the other hand, have always RP'd a genetic database identification system and a relative police state complete with skull id staples at birth for all citizens that cannot be removed without surgery. Yay for government monitoring.. x.x Edited June 7, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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