Reps for IRON, NPO, Echelon, and TPF

[JBone]

We'll just keep fighting until npo gets out, not much point in us debating jbone.

Yes, we will.

.....but Spider needs me, I am the yang to complete his ying.

and it's Saturday, the bourbon will soon be flowing.

[Captain Flinders]

Well that would be a bit impossible now wouldn't it? Nice try attempting to play the fool. Viceroys have since been abolished as contrary to the TOS.

Yes and no. Viceroys as they have been abused in the past have been abolished by the TOS as per the fact that you cannot demand admin access, forum accounts, etc. In practice, however, a viceroy could be established if, for example, the viceroy in question created a new forum and required nations that seek peace to sign up there. That's only one way of doing it and I'm sure there are many ways of creating a viceroy situation that is per the TOS. Just thought I'd clear that up.

Edit: It's people like you that make me dislike Nemesis.

Please tell me I'm one of those people. I'm not in Nemesis anymore but please!

*Flinders high fives SpiderJ

[SpiderJerusalem]

Not without tearing Cit apart, they needed NPO to acquiesce to the Polar trouncing, as the central member of both Q and 1V.....both of which contained Cit folks as well. Sparta, well, we don't see that the same then, TPF was very close with them after UJW and some of the conversations that took place leading to our MADP cancellation and their withdraw from Q form my view.

I guess we can't agree at all on this one

Sweet.

Dude...

No, I compared mindless hailing of the NoV war by ignorant folks to the mindless hailing of Karma by some of the same ignorant folks.

You sir are wrong. People hailing us are just acknowledging our awesomeness

They were vocal, I give you that, but remained in Q nonetheless.

It's easier to change something from within

I read it as Polar got what they deserved and the horrible part was the innocents, whoever they were.

Pretty much everyone but Polar were the innocents. Polar deserved a stern talking to. The war might have been a bit too excessive though

I hear tubes make boats sink, so no posting for you....be safe young man.

I will

.....but Spider needs me, I am the yang to complete his ying.

This is true

and it's Saturday, the bourbon will soon be flowing.

*sighs*

Buy some real liquor for once....

Bloody American wannabe liquor...

*grumbles*

[Matthew Conrad]

I never complained, I said it was purdy.

In my view, respect is earned.

See the Independant part? I'm not on a chain. of course, I represent that they allowed a straightforward blunt person amongst their ranks, OH THA HORRAH!

Perhaps I am a bit reactionary, but you would be too if gangs of people were prancing around disparaging your mother and father. IRON gave me life in CN, and for that, I am grateful. However, I am free to express MY opinion (Independant, see?) even though I've been told it probably isn't a good idea.

I do respect people on the other side of this war. Had a run in with MHA (that reactionary thing) but over the course of the war, came to respect them greatly. That's the difference between false respect and earned respect. The respect I gained for MHA will be very hard to break for the rest of my life, while any fake "respect" offered toward the chattering hordes who wish nothing but to see my Alliance destroyed (and exhibit great disrespect in the process) will only leave me feeling like a fool. It's not in my nature, and I don't care really, what your opinion is of me. Sure, I could dance around the issues and be polite, but what purpose does that serve? I say what I mean. THAT is respect. The respect to let you know how I feel. Not angling to drop your guard so I can stab you in the back like a coward.

Edit: Spelling

By all means, defend your alliance if you truly care for it but blatantly insulting the integrity of others is definitely not the way to do it. I never said you shouldn't express your opinion; I was telling you that you may wish to also examine how people perceive your alliance through your words. Just because IRON lets their members post on here doesn't mean they want them to all act in a way that's detrimental to their image (or at least I'm assuming).

I like how you see a few individuals as the "chattering horde" that wants to destroy IRON. There have been many people, including me, who want IRON to get light terms but you do yourself no favors by questioning your attackers' integrity.

[sir jesus]

My comrade PA is capable of respecting the opposition, he just gets riled up easily (and he'll be the first to admit it).

We at IRON are very glad that most of our allies have gotten off relatively scot-free. I don't feel like I have too many new things to add to this conversation, except that the political climate has changed permanently. If anyone feels like they must punish alliances to teach them to accept the reality of our new world, they are mistaken. I PROMISE you that IRON has personally learned a great deal in this affair, and we are rapidly learning what alliances are deserving of our friendship.

Speaking in realpolitik, the amount of reps an alliance could obtain from this war will be practically nothing in the grand scheme. The climate of Bob's future is being decided right NOW, and future of every single alliance will depend on the PR, friendships, and physical developments that they create for themselves.

Example: Before the war, internal IRON discussions spoke of the Gramlins rather indifferently or in terms of hypothetical combat. When war broke out, they absolutely DEVASTED the upper ranks. I personally had 6 Gramlin opponents, and was receiving WRC-nukes every day. At first thought, you would think we would build up a hatred for them ... but this was not the case. Personally, they treated me with the utmost respect (even congratulating me on my GA victories) and IRON as a whole has nothing but good things to say about them. There are threads within our forums along the lines of "What kind of messages from the enemy have you gotten?" and "IRON nation gets compliment": silly threads to pass time. However within those threads you will find great things about our nice opponents, and the developing circumstances regarding reparations has made us appreciate them even more. I know I've been pushing for postwar Gramlin-IRON relations. By being nice to us, they have created respect out of warfare. In realpolitik: they won, they gained a possible ally and a definite friend.

[Zoli]

i'd be generous and say no reps, only one surrender term: like the one GOLD was given:

1, Change AA to Karma POW

[Van Hoo III]

He got some trouble because that wasn't the only time. I'll go further into it once I clear it with someone. I don't want to hurt a friendship.

I was actually never in any trouble for anything. The NPO and myself discussed the logs in question, my motivation was explained, and we moved on from it. I also never "plotted to attack the NPO". I did, however, discuss and help plan the defense of Ragnarok and SF in the event that the Gremlins were attacked after leaving tC. If there were no plans to do so, then those conversations were moot.

This assertion that there was some sort of hot water or severe controversy over those logs is silly. If there was some sort of retribution in the works due to them, it was discussed among tC privately and myself, RoK gov, and SF as a whole were not aware of it. Given my personality and the way I do things, I doubt direct threats towards me and my alliance would have been the best idea anyway.

Also, comparing RoK to IRON on the guilt scale is ridiculous. While Ragnarok was not innocent and did bloody their hands during the NoCB War, there are some glaring differences you need to be aware of before making such uninformed statements. We honored our MADP with NATO and for that we are indeed guilty of participating in the curbstomp of a year ago and there is no way to rationalize that. I have spoken to NV at length in regards to our part in that war and they understand our stance and our feelings on that war in the aftermath.

The difference is that during that war, our eyes were opened as to how some of our allies operated. After sitting in those backchannels and reading those forums, we quickly realized that after that war closed we were going to be shifting away from certain alliances ... namely GGA, TPF, NPO, and NATO. The record will show that RoK no longer holds treaties with three of those alliances and have downgraded one. Those changes did not occur overnight, nor were they made with the idea that those alliances would be on the losing side of any war. No, those changes were made due to a differing of opinion as to what a true ally is as well as disagreeing with the philosophies and general demeanors of those alliances.

I did not see IRON do any of this. I instead saw IRON remain in not one, but two power blocs with the NPO. IRON did not decide that they disagreed with anything NPO has done until war was at their doorstep and, while I personally have nothing against IRON, it is their complete complacency with allying with the NPO through all of this and their inability to make any sort of change until it was far too late and the writing had already become long dry on the wall that has placed them in their current position.

While I have no idea what constitutes a "fair" amount of reps from IRON nor will I hazzard a guess, I will shed no tears no matter what it is ... neither should anyone else.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Van Hoo III

[cowen70]

My comrade PA is capable of respecting the opposition, he just gets riled up easily (and he'll be the first to admit it).

We at IRON are very glad that most of our allies have gotten off relatively scot-free. I don't feel like I have too many new things to add to this conversation, except that the political climate has changed permanently. If anyone feels like they must punish alliances to teach them to accept the reality of our new world, they are mistaken. I PROMISE you that IRON has personally learned a great deal in this affair, and we are rapidly learning what alliances are deserving of our friendship.

The last AA you decided was worthy of your friendship was NPO so your judgement is surely trustworthy!

I don't get how NPO is evil, immoral or whatever other buzz word you want to use but the fashion has developed to assume that the people who supported ''insert buzzword for morally objectionable Bob action'' are innocent.

If IRON had any sense it would create a new reign of terror and run every act of terror through a proxy called N(insert random diget)O and then claim innocence and no doubt the new Karma coalition would forgive them as well Could happen!

[der_ko]

We'll just keep fighting until npo gets out, not much point in us debating jbone.

Don't forget to order out your remaining top nations from peace mode.

[Drostan]

Yes, we will.

.....but Spider needs me, I am the yang to complete his ying.

and it's Saturday, the bourbon will soon be flowing.

You had me at bourbon... so much so that I failed to read anything else. Except now I see that someone has posted about scotch... I am a Lagavulin fan myself.

Anyway, I think that most people are fairly sympathetic to IRON's situation and I also do not see the hordes of people clamoring for harsh terms to be imposed on them. When the time comes I will certainly voice my support for lighter terms for IRON and I am positive that I will not be alone. Conrad is right when he says that civility is the best course of action right now. I think sympathies are reasonably on your side and running around throwing insults is only going to wound that advantage.

[Hegemon Rob]

IRON has demanded and recieved massive reps. They also have the ability to pay massive reps.

NPO- severe

IRON- moderate to severe

TPF- moderate

Echelon- light to moderate

[bbrownso]

In no particular order:

• Woodstock massacre (Where outrageous reps were demanded, and the war was on a rather flimsy CB)
  
• VietFAN 2.0 (Yeah, as if FAN deserved that treatment)
  
• Stalking players in other fora to get CBs on their alliance (NoV war. For shame)
  
• BAPS slaughter (and the extremely bad behaviour towards BAPS and TDSM8 during the entire war)
  
• GATO war (With the aftermath being an NPO viceroy, along with the damnation of all players in PM)
  

I agree that TOP have done their fair share of bad deeds in the history of CN, and I have never denied it either.

However, Grämlins? You're kidding me, right? They have been nothing but fair in every war they have fought and won. Sparta? A few missteps, sure, but they are nowhere near you guys. MHA? Come on. They have also been acting much like Grämlins. Not quite, but almost. And RoK? They have been rather independent haven't they?

I gotta now that I know who you might have been in a former life.

[SpiderJerusalem]

I gotta now that I know who you might have been in a former life.

I think it's funny that we blame peeps for former lifes. Classy

At least since you have no clue on what happened

[bbrownso]

I think it's funny that we blame peeps for former lifes. Classy

At least since you have no clue on what happened

Well I have a theory. Want me to expound on it? I'm happy to. I'll go into all the details I know.

It is a little two-faced but a good story.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Brandon Simonson

[SpiderJerusalem]

Well I have a theory. Want me to expound on it? I'm happy to. I'll go into all the details I know.

It is a little two-faced but a good story.

So, you keep attacking a former character?

Well, I've sent you a PM. Do what you must

[IamJoe]

For your information, I liked IRON. I used to like them a lot. I still have some respect for them and the respect can be increased greatly if you go back to the independent route you were on before.

And common grunts... That's all it takes. A single common grunt to voice his opinion and it might all change. Can you please take a look at the history of your own alliance, think hard and then try to win back some of that independence I liked?

Thanks

The reason IRON changed course on your interpretation of Independent is because back in the day, GOONs and FAN would have liked nothing better than to attack and crush us for fun. It was the NPO who made sure they didn't try anything, and for that we always respected the NPO as a stable and relatively friendly alliance.

[SpiderJerusalem]

The reason IRON changed course on your interpretation of Independent is because back in the day, GOONs and FAN would have liked nothing better than to attack and crush us for fun. It was the NPO who made sure they didn't try anything, and for that we always respected the NPO as a stable and relatively friendly alliance.

Meh, I guess you misunderstood me.

Being alone is not what I meant by going back to your independence.

Thinking for yourselves on the other hand...

[bbrownso]

Meh, I guess you misunderstood me.

Being alone is not what I meant by going back to your independence.

Thinking for yourselves on the other hand...

Yeah. Everyone in the Hegemony was merely a puppet and mind controlled solely by the NPO. In that case, only NPO should get terms.

[IamJoe]

Meh, I guess you misunderstood me.

Being alone is not what I meant by going back to your independence.

Thinking for yourselves on the other hand...

How have we not thought for ourselves?

[519 Nigras]

We'll just keep fighting until npo gets out, not much point in us debating jbone.

Well, that is news to my ears. I think letting you off with reps, even ridiculously high reps, would be in your favor in the short and long run. It's not as if you guys have a secret plan to turn this war around in your favor or anything. Perpetual peace mode, perpetual war... whatever. No amount of reps is going to put my nation at pre-war stats, so I don't want them. I'd rather be a key cog that successfully contributes to you, your alliance and it's allies demise.

Edited May 24, 2009 by 519 Nigras

[Cairna]

White peace, they all have taken enough of a beating, i doubt they will try anything like this soon or this would just repeat & your names karma so taking billions in rep it would just happen right back to you (using your logic)

"They"

Also, horrible analysis.

[mhawk]

Don't forget to order out your remaining top nations from peace mode.

I know, those top end nations... the 10 that remain over 30k with no one even at 60k. Nearly everyone has fought and will continue to fight. We're just bracing for the very long fight given the opening deal we saw presented to NPO.

[princessro07]

I just wanted to voice my support for Seerow's idea instead of reps (for NPO at any rate). Brilliant.

[Haflinger]

Most of Hoo's statement is the truth. However, Hoo, you really shouldn't try to blame NATO for your involvement in WotC.

[Vhalen]

The reason IRON changed course on your interpretation of Independent is because back in the day, GOONs and FAN would have liked nothing better than to attack and crush us for fun. It was the NPO who made sure they didn't try anything, and for that we always respected the NPO as a stable and relatively friendly alliance.

I'll just accept your information rather than waste time investigating history. However...

Given the bolded part, I'd say you should've been more capable of realizing that NPO had turned the corner on that vein. I mean, when every war you're in is a curbstomp, often with weak or fabricated CBs, maybe your friends have become what you joined them to avoid. I guess what I'm saying is, you have no excuse for complaining when other people opted to change their relations with that sort of power structure, and you didn't.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Vhalen