Re: Valhalla

[Nizzle]

His strawmans regarding those who disagree with the terms is spam.

And frankly arrogant as hell.

"OMG, we do anything more than a slap on the wrist and its the slippery moral slope for us!!!"

Frankly, if you don't trust yourselves to have any self-control, then you have no position playing up the moral high ground to begin with. If dislike "extortion", then really give Valhalla a proper term of the ceasefire, and don't even make them a protectorate.

Honestly. You're protecting these guys while they rebuild just so they can strut around again afterwards? That's insulting. Your terms amount to a White peace by the general consensus of anyone who has ever bothered looking in the OWF for the past 3 years.

And you use strawmans and logical fallacies to defend and tar those who would call you out for it.

Egos in this game sure are something...

As you clearly display here.

The point stands. If you are angry at their imposition of reps, and you impose reps because they did it...where does that end? Why not end it right here and now? Of course this looks like white peace when compared to the past! How observant of you! Unfortunately, it isn't white peace when compared to the white peace agreements given this week and last.

Protection is a typical part of the peace process. Of course they will rebuild. That was the proclaimed intent of this Karma Coalition. "We want more wars that aren't curbstomps. We want less of a vicegrip." Well, here is step one...right?

You need to stop pretending that Valhalla was operating on it's own, and that they can do it again Stop pretending Valhalla was some independant powerhouse. They were not. Valhalla had roughly the same NS as Umbrella does, and I doubt you are nervous Umbrella will make others cower to their will all on their own. They all enabled each other, and the lot of them were enabled by one alliance: The New Pacific Order. Focus on the source of the problem, and stop pretending that the appendages will continue to be a threat if left alone.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Nizzle

[b3x]

These terms are far too lenient. Valhalla is the epitome of the evilness of the Hegemony.

/wanted to be one of the cool kids by bashing Valhalla

Isn't trying to be one of the cool kids, why your where you are right now? If anyone is a poster boy for the lure of private channels , it is you.

"OMG Moo asked who I was, then kicked me. ROFL"

WHERE IS YOUR WHITE PEACE NOW?

[Orkules]

The way Valhallans seem to be trying to get the last word in this thread really makes me wonder if this war achieved anything at all.

Of course it didn't.

[KagetheSecond]

Isn't trying to be one of the cool kids, why your where you are right now? If anyone is a poster boy for the lure of private channels , it is you.

"OMG Moo asked who I was, then kicked me. ROFL"

WHERE IS YOUR WHITE PEACE NOW?

May I please have a translation? Please and thank you!

[TehChron]

As you clearly display here.

The point stands. If you are angry at their imposition of reps, and you impose reps because they did it...where does that end? Why not end it right here and now? Of course this looks like white peace when compared to the past! How observant of you! Unfortunately, it isn't white peace when compared to the white peace agreements given this week and last.

Protection is a typical part of the peace process. Of course they will rebuild. That was the proclaimed intent of this Karma Coalition. "We want more wars that aren't curbstomps. We want less of a vicegrip." Well, here is step one...right?

You need to stop pretending that Valhalla was operating on it's own, and that they can do it again Stop pretending Valhalla was some independant powerhouse. They were not. Valhalla had roughly the same NS as Umbrella does, and I doubt you are nervous Umbrella will make others cower to their will all on their own. They all enabled each other, and the lot of them were enabled by one alliance: The New Pacific Order. Focus on the source of the problem, and stop pretending that the appendages will continue to be a threat if left alone.

You know, I was here for the first reps imposed after a war in this game. And you know who it was levied against? The NAAC.

You know why PWII occurred? Because the NAAC had been spying on us and actively attempting to start a war against us. Not one they knew they could win, but one nonetheless. And don't try and argue that no one is that stupid, you've never met TheBlitz.

Ultimately, Ivan decided against enforcing reps after we won.

We simply let them off on their lonesome, and created the New Polar Order instead of bothering with them. We frankly didn't care what the NAAC did after we curbstomped them as punishment. They went and did their own thing, and then GWI happened because of random stuff. And reps were not enforced as a part of that war, as a matter of fact, all that was requested was that Ivan apologize, and we were left to our own devices as well.

In both cases, they were moves that came back to cost the ones who showed "mercy". Ivan resigned his position to Dilber, who then proceeded to create the foundations for WUT which would lead to our victory in GWII. The NAAC got back up and took its potshot at Pacifica during the conflict, lead by more competent individuals than TheBlitz.

Now for the bolded part.

What many of you guys dont seem to realize is that the NPO used to be the epitomy of "tough yet just". Reps were imposed after Ivan's reign, but the thing is, Ivan Moldavi was the kind of leader who would put that kind of neccessary thing on the table to shame and humiliate those who had wronged his people, and therefore bring about justice.

Even if they were never actually enforced.

If you think that by cowering away from being "tough yet just" you are being truly righteous, than you are delusional. A person can demand restitution and not lose his honor.

Your entire justification for your actions in this peace agreement is a farce.

Edited May 12, 2009 by ReturnOfChron

[Slayer99]

Isn't trying to be one of the cool kids, why your where you are right now? If anyone is a poster boy for the lure of private channels , it is you.

"OMG Moo asked who I was, then kicked me. ROFL"

WHERE IS YOUR WHITE PEACE NOW?

You're talking to someone that really doesn't care what you or anyone else thinks. As stated, I'm done at the end of this war.

[Orkules]

10,000 tech would have done nothing to rectify Valhalla's past actions and we didn't want to take it. Umbrella took 5k tech from Polar after last summer and I didn't like it.

It would have done something. Not enough, but something. Luckily for them, even if I had the chance I would not demand everything that would be needed to rectify their past actions.

I'm done here (and this time I think I'll keep to that). Valhalla, prove me wrong. If you don't...God help me, I don't know what I'll do but I doubt you'll enjoy it.

[King Srqt]

Demanding a small reps payment does not make you as bad as the Hegemony as I and others have pointed out dozens of times. You gave Valhalla your terms and there is nothing that I can do about it but I really tire of the lie you lot have been trotting out over and over to smear myself, the STA and MK.

I want to make it clear that I have never said that forcing reps makes you as bad as the Hegemony, in fact if you see other surrenders where reps have been asked I have supported the alliances that asked for the reps because they have been reasonable. However I personally do not believe in asking for reps from an alliance that entered a conflict in the way that Valhalla did, I did not support white peace for Valhalla (and despite what some people say this is not a white peace) but I did not think reps were appropriate and felt that these terms were fair for this war.

If I gave the impression that I felt STA or MK were as bad as the Hegemony I am sorry as it was not my intent at all nor was it my intent to smear either of your alliances as I have a lot of respect for each of you.

[AlmightyGrub]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

[TehChron]

I want to make it clear that I have never said that forcing reps makes you as bad as the Hegemony, in fact if you see other surrenders where reps have been asked I have supported the alliances that asked for the reps because they have been reasonable. However I personally do not believe in asking for reps from an alliance that entered a conflict in the way that Valhalla did, I did not support white peace for Valhalla (and despite what some people say this is not a white peace) but I did not think reps were appropriate and felt that these terms were fair for this war.

If I gave the impression that I felt STA or MK were as bad as the Hegemony I am sorry as it was not my intent at all nor was it my intent to smear either of your alliances as I have a lot of respect for each of you.

If you want I can quote and link to the posts where such offenses may have been Inferred.

[Carter]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

An honorable move, and people wonder why I love Polaris so much.

[PrototyoeRuler]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

And I want mine back too, and my cash I sent for reps! I think i was over 122 million?

[Electron Sponge]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

That would be NADC, GOONS, \m/, MK, Genmay, TPF, FAN, NAAC x2, CIN, and several incarnations of Nazi alliances. Most of them don't exist anymore, the ones who do might appreciate a boost (I'm looking at you FAN).

[King Srqt]

If you want I can quote and link to the posts where such offenses may have been Inferred.

I believe I just acknowledged that what Tyga said may have been inferred from my posts and clarified the intent of my words to correct the miscommunication. I do not see what linking to those posts would accomplish but if you want to do it knock yourself out.

[Lord Brendan]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

Wait, is this serious?

2000 please.

[greatmagnus]

That would be NADC, GOONS, \m/, MK, Genmay, TPF, FAN, NAAC x2, CIN, and several incarnations of Nazi alliances. Most of them don't exist anymore, the ones who do might appreciate a boost (I'm looking at you FAN).

I was in NAAC, I want tech

EDIT: And as I recall NAAC is only once, as in GWIII we did not pay reps.

Edited May 12, 2009 by greatmagnus

[Tygaland]

I want to make it clear that I have never said that forcing reps makes you as bad as the Hegemony, in fact if you see other surrenders where reps have been asked I have supported the alliances that asked for the reps because they have been reasonable. However I personally do not believe in asking for reps from an alliance that entered a conflict in the way that Valhalla did, I did not support white peace for Valhalla (and despite what some people say this is not a white peace) but I did not think reps were appropriate and felt that these terms were fair for this war.

If I gave the impression that I felt STA or MK were as bad as the Hegemony I am sorry as it was not my intent at all nor was it my intent to smear either of your alliances as I have a lot of respect for each of you.

/me breaks my promise to leave the thread

I just wanted to address this as leaving it unanswered would be rude.

Thank you, the clarification is appreciated. I'm not sure your posts were overly offensive but many who rallied to your side were.

I consider the matter resolved.

[Dankbud]

In case any of you were wondering, if Valhalla declared on us and we were on the defensive side against them, reps would have been levied. The whole "white peace" or lenient terms comes about because we were the aggrssors in this war. I cannot justify picking a fight, beating the crap out of my opponent and then stealing his money while calling him names or making him act like a pig.

That's our alliance, those are our beliefs. To us past transgression of Valhalla never factored into the terms since those transgressions were not against us as an alliance. I can't speak for my compatriots who shared this front with us but I think the sentiments would be the same.

And the fact is, we put up a vote for our alliance to amend our charter to allow harsher terms and it was emphatically voted down. So it isn't like we didn't make any attempt to respect those we are fighting with and try to ease their anger for Valhalla did to them in the past. In the end our principles and beliefs won out, as they should have. It is not meant as a slap in the face of those that were wronged in the past and wanted harsher terms, believe me. But what would it look like if a young alliance such as ours, which came together because we so strongly shared beliefs changed our foundation and charter the first time we were asked?

Lastly, there were only a couple ways to go with peace terms with Valhalla:

1. Light terms that give them a second chance.

2. Change of leadership to try to force change as in the Polar war.

3. Disbandment

Anything else would have been moot. And since disbandment and lforced leaedership change are both something we don't believe in it is something that could never happen. As stated before, asking for any amount of tech or extended mil decom or even the decomming of wonders/improvements would have only delayed Valhalla from coming back a month or so while at the same time galvanzing them only more.

[bigwoody]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

I'll return all the tech I took from you.

[mmansfield68]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

I love you, Grub.

[Dochartaigh]

Polaris is standing by to accept the return of all tech taken from us last war. We in turn can then forward it down the line to whoever we took it off .... please make your claims in writing

i just realized, all the wars i was in with Polaris, and i never got any of the reps, though i never paid reps either. funny....

anyways, meh. hopefully Valhalla learns from this, if not, hopefully I get to war against Valhalla.

[feardaram]

In case any of you were wondering, if Valhalla declared on us and we were on the defensive side against them, reps would have been levied. The whole "white peace" or lenient terms comes about because we were the aggrssors in this war. I cannot justify picking a fight, beating the crap out of my opponent and then stealing his money while calling him names or making him act like a pig.

That's our alliance, those are our beliefs. To us past transgression of Valhalla never factored into the terms since those transgressions were not against us as an alliance. I can't speak for my compatriots who shared this front with us but I think the sentiments would be the same.

And the fact is, we put up a vote for our alliance to amend our charter to allow harsher terms and it was emphatically voted down. So it isn't like we didn't make any attempt to respect those we are fighting with and try to ease their anger for Valhalla did to them in the past. In the end our principles and beliefs won out, as they should have. It is not meant as a slap in the face of those that were wronged in the past and wanted harsher terms, believe me. But what would it look like if a young alliance such as ours, which came together because we so strongly shared beliefs changed our foundation and charter the first time we were asked?

Lastly, there were only a couple ways to go with peace terms with Valhalla:

1. Light terms that give them a second chance.

2. Change of leadership to try to force change as in the Polar war.

3. Disbandment

Anything else would have been moot. And since disbandment and lforced leaedership change are both something we don't believe in it is something that could never happen. As stated before, asking for any amount of tech or extended mil decom or even the decomming of wonders/improvements would have only delayed Valhalla from coming back a month or so while at the same time galvanzing them only more.

well said.

[TehChron]

well said.

Really?

There were only three options for peace?

Im frankly shocked. Did you receive a list of what surrender terms Valhalla would consider beforehand, or something?

As I said in this post here, terms can be harsh, yet fair.

Based on what Ive seen, you folks were completely uninterested in fair terms of punishment for Valhalla's many transgressions. I suppose it's your perogative, though, as no one else's feelings mattered, and if they want to punish Valhalla themselves, they can do so after you stop protecting them.

[Dankbud]

Really?

There were only three options for peace?

Im frankly shocked. Did you receive a list of what surrender terms Valhalla would consider beforehand, or something?

As I said in this post here, terms can be harsh, yet fair.

Based on what Ive seen, you folks were completely uninterested in fair terms of punishment for Valhalla's many transgressions. I suppose it's your perogative, though, as no one else's feelings mattered, and if they want to punish Valhalla themselves, they can do so after you stop protecting them.

No, their feelings did matter. If you read the whole post you would have seen the part where we voted on whether or not to change our charter to impose harsher terms. If we didn't care at all it would never have gone that far. And for an alliance to change their charter in order to appease "friends" is a huge thing, wouldn't you say?

[Snowbeast]

No, their feelings did matter. If you read the whole post you would have seen the part where we voted on whether or not to change our charter to impose harsher terms. If we didn't care at all it would never have gone that far. And for an alliance to change their charter in order to appease "friends" is a huge thing, wouldn't you say?

I think he's referring to the alliances that had nothing to do with our war with Valhalla. In that case he's right, their opinion on what we should have set forth as terms didn't matter then and doesn't matter now.