GATO, from the ashes reborn? Or its final humiliation?

[Haflinger]

We cared.

Yes, you cared so much that you cancelled every treaty with an alliance that fought in that war.

[BlackDragon]

Yes, you cared so much that you cancelled every treaty with an alliance that fought in that war.

And still stood by us. Anyone that has attacked GATO or one of her allies or cancelled treaties with them on the dawn of war has no right to !@#$%* at IAA, CSN or USN.

BlackDragon

[Cataduanes]

Yes, you cared so much that you cancelled every treaty with an alliance that fought in that war.

Indeed unlike some who cancelled and failed to go to war CSN marched into the abyss regardless. That is worthy of respect surely???

[Haflinger]

And still stood by us. Anyone that has attacked GATO or one of her allies or cancelled treaties with them on the dawn of war has no right to !@#$%* at IAA, CSN or USN.

Huh?

I'm a member of a current USN ally. You know, the people who helped you in that war, who you then cancelled on later. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your position.

The only treaty partner you still have from before the GATO war is Monos Archein.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Whatever his relationship with the NPO is (and I'll admit that I don't know it offhand) I'll still confront him about how what he said about GATO falls right in line with mean spirited propaganda the NPO used against GATO.

GATO has suffered for years under that propaganda, has had no real friends among the large alliances for a long time, and just finally got out from underneath a year of war then viceroyship. I am sick and tired of hearing people with long memories continuing to speak against GATO, especially when their memories seem to be tainted by what was largely a NPO effort to discredit GATO.

If there is any alliance in this game that deserves a fresh start, and the benefit of the doubt from people with long memories, it's GATO. Criticize them for mistakes they make now, I know I certainly will, but let their past (no matter what your view of it is) be the past.

You are correct.

And while the New Sith Order is not (yet) one of the large alliances in the Cyberverse we hope to correct some of the mistakes of our forbearers in reaching out to GATO on Brown. I take some level of personal responsibility for the plight of GATO through the years. I found them to be a convenient "enemy" and focus and made them the target. I maneuvered political events so that they would eventually be our enemy. Their betrayal of the Dove Doctrine at the onset of the Great Patriotic War was a planned eventuality, just not on that particular timetable.

GATO was labelled the "Worst Alliance Ever" because I needed an enemy. Their denial of that status and the perpetuation of same by my successors led to their eventual downfall, in my opinion.

And now we have come to the end of several eras. The era of the NPO seems to be drawing to a close, although I certainly believe the NPO to still be a future factor in the power struggles of the Cyberverse. The era of harsh terms may be coming to a close (with the exception of those in "Karma" that believe more in vengeance than their namesake) and the era of Brown being a laughingstock has ended.

Together we move forward.

[The Black Watch]

Huh?

I'm a member of a current USN ally. You know, the people who helped you in that war, who you then cancelled on later. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your position.

The only treaty partner you still have from before the GATO war is Monos Archein.

I think you're slightly mistaken in who you are talking to. From your statements you seem to think you're talking to a CSN member, when in fact you are talking to a GATO member.

And the treaty you are referring to was later upgraded to a MDAP, the only one that CSN has ever had. It was cancelled later, only when it became apparent that our two foreign affairs directions were diverging and a happy medium could not be reached.

In any case this is neither here nor there in a thread about GATO. If you wish to continue this chain of thoughts, feel free to make a new topic or to PM me.

[Allied_Threat]

Yes, you cared so much that you cancelled every treaty with an alliance that fought in that war.

The only treaty partner you still have from before the GATO war is Monos Archein.

I'm the cold !@#$%^& who is responsible for all of those. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise because I mean what I say, at least while I am saying it.

Also, I believe we held an ODP with Farkistan at the time, and our Rok treaty was somewhat of a continuation of our ties with ASC at the time. Can those count?

Edited May 21, 2009 by Allied_Threat

[Haflinger]

I'm the cold !@#$%^& who is responsible for all of those. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise because I mean what I say, at least while I am saying it.

Also, I believe we held an ODP with Farkistan at the time, and our Rok treaty was somewhat of a continuation of our ties with ASC at the time. Can those count?

The FARK treaty wasn't on your wiki, if it existed. As for whether the ASC treaty counts... perhaps. I don't see a treaty to Athens though. But ASC was in Superfriends, and many of them stayed in Ragnarok; that much at least holds true.

[Allied_Threat]

The FARK treaty wasn't on your wiki, if it existed. As for whether the ASC treaty counts... perhaps. I don't see a treaty to Athens though. But ASC was in Superfriends, and many of them stayed in Ragnarok; that much at least holds true.

That wiki page also claims we had a legislative assembly, which I dissolved by that point. Not quite top priority keeping that up to date back then it seems.

[Haflinger]

That wiki page also claims we had a legislative assembly, which I dissolved by that point. Not quite top priority keeping that up to date back then it seems.

This is the first revision to mention Fark, from several months later. It also includes the legislative assembly. Heh.

[CaptainImpavid]

actually if you look at farkistan's wiki:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Farkistan

you see that the ODP was signed 4/19/2008, and CSN didn't enter the GATO/One Vision war until 4/28/2009

[Allied_Threat]

This is the first revision to mention Fark, from several months later. It also includes the legislative assembly. Heh.

Your sifting abilities are top notch. I think I'd better have you update it for me.

Also, no it does not include the legislative assembly.

[Angrator]

Daedalus27,

Hah. Why is my name bolded? Somehow I get the impression of a weary motherly tone.

I like your perspective on CNARF. Where are your posts on you defending it? Did you defend it publically when it wasn't politically expedient to do so? I don't ever remember a single influential and forceful GATO member arguing for the benefits of CNARF. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I even remember GATO members attacking it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an NPO fan either. They should have supported CNARF, which is more in line with their principles, but they didn't. Instead they formed a ragtag group in order to exact payback from their enemies. But at least the NPO was not afraid to stand up for something when it mattered. For whatever reason, GATO has a history of conceding the OWF and they proved incapable of swaying public opinion. They even did the opposite. What one hand promoted, the other hand tore down.

GATO at the time was so disorganized to the point of being a joke. Ivan and his successors certainly played it up and exaggerated it to ridiculousness, but there certainly was something to their arguments. The way I see GATO is that it has been somewhat weak willed. To be honest, I think most of this stemmed from their lack of cohesion and coherence. Unfortunately, I found that this period of GATO's infancy shaped my outlook on them. The whole NpO thing made me lose so much respect for them. The way it was handled was the exact opposite of the right way to do something. The NPO's coup did not make me feel the same way because the preceding events were different. Ivan was an established world leader who had held the reigns for many years. The whole GATO coup debacle was different because of the whole NpO recognition fiasco. It just seems to be a continuation of the previous events.

Should I probably have more respect GATO for lasting beyond many of TI allies? Yeah I think I should. Would I go as far as to call it a pillar of CN? Not even close. After beating the NPO once, they somehow found a way to not use that victory to make meaningful gains for their alliance.

I suppose I should stop comparing GATO to the NPO because the comparison just does them injustice.

Anyway, my main argument with GATO is that it really hasn't possessed a group of articulate people to advance their agenda. They never were the NPO and they weren't Vox. In the end, I think it was unfortunate that GATO was the NPO's main opponent for so long because GATO never had the balls or the cohesion to effectively oppose the NPO. They simply weren't that strong. To be honest, I don't know why I'm still going on about GATO. I think by now GATO has been forced to become resigned to certain realities. While they might argue with particulars of my argument I doubt they would argue with the main thrust.

[Haflinger]

Your sifting abilities are top notch. I think I'd better have you update it for me.

Also, no it does not include the legislative assembly.

My sifting abilities are evidently failing me actually. I coulda sworn I saw that assembly... well lol.

[Daedalus27]

Angrator, your name is bolded because I use it as a convention. Personal names should be bolded so they stand out and can catch the eye of those addressed.

Now if you did some research on the CNARF you will find my name associated with defending it. Look on the old forums and old threads and you will see people defending it including myself. The problem is we were drowned out by opportunistic alliances using the CNARF and the participation of GATO members in it in order to try and formulate another war. When you are walking into a trap, sometimes you have to cut your losses. Given it was a side project by Walford rather than a formally adopted police of GATO, it was discarded even though many GATO members thought it was a noble endevor. If GATO did otherwise, I am sure you would be claiming it as stupidity for walking into another beatdown.

Now on GATO organization, were you a member? How do you know it is "disorganized" as you claim. Policies shifted, in the Grenvel case quite rapidly, but that is far from a disorganized item, just a poor policy choice the AC attempted to minimize. These things can happen and again the critical thing is the issue was resolved and patched up. You seem to be the only one harping on it.

The coup could have happened to any alliance. It just so happened to coincide with the the NpO recognition issue. The long gone founder returning and using his root forum access to launch a coup. Honestly, it could have happened to any alliance out there. Most of us had no idea who the heck he was or that he still had access there. How is this any different from the leadership struggle NPO had? Different names and respect of people but when 2 sides are claiming leadership to the largest alliance out there leading to a significant loss of the leadership, that isn't disorganized and cause for concern? If anything the NPO situation is worse because it was established leaders of the dominate alliance in the game fighting it out.

Read Ivan's post above. GATO was viewed as a conveinent scapegoat and trumped up as an enemy. With NPO leading the way their allies fell in line and the legions of propagandists looked for any opportunity, whether real or imaginary, to create a negative image of GATO. Certainly GATO made some mistakes to make their lives easier, but if you have half the politically active people looking for any perceived mistake and criticising it, there is little any alliance could do to stop that. You seem to have bought their propaganda and continue to throw it at GATO. GATO never wanted to be NPOs opponent, it was thrust upon them as GATO never really wanted the domination of CN. That wasn't a realistic goal and GATO isn't bloodthirsty enough to reach that goal. However they were arguing for certain things that put them in opposition and that combined with the NPO needing an enemy pushed GATO into seeming perpetual conflict.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Daedalus27

[BarbulaM1]

Daedalus27 and Angrator,

While I take Ivan's words for a grain of salt given his history, as a person who had some dealing with foreign policy at the time I can atest that GATO held absolutly no illwill towards NPO in the months following Great War III up through the most recent war. However any political manuvering was impossible because everyone else lacked the foresight. I knew deep down that GATO would eventually be attacked again for any flaw. We were vulnerable at all times, until we could establish a treaty directly with NPO that would buy us time and credibility to further a political agenda with most other major alliances. NPO deffinantly pulled the strings behind any atempt at treaty making with any major alliance they had a treaty with.

However I do not see why any sort of dominance is not a realistic goal, I believe it can be done while still maintaing our virtues.

Depending on the events that unfold post war and internal events, GATO is again fairly well poised to become sanctioned again. The tenacity of the General Assembly combined with the organized chaos that is GATO's internal workings always allows GATO on a domestic front to be very successful. When compared to other alliances of nearly our age, there are quite a few that have never reached sanction status. It is just a matter of future political manuvering in what is, for the most part, an entirely blank slate. Minus of course IAA we already them.

[Lizardo]

CNARF? Why are we even talking about Walford's hoary old project? Ancient history.

Edited May 22, 2009 by Lizardo

[Esau of Isaac]

Anyway, my main argument with GATO is that it really hasn't possessed a group of articulate people to advance their agenda.

That's absolutely false; there are several points in history in which members have promptly inserted their foot into their mouth, but this doesn't change that there were several intelligent and helpful characters that were present throughout the alliance's history, and some which did their best to help. Hell, quite a few of them left from the Global Alliance to join the NPO and enjoy positions of power, it was practically tradition until the end of the Second Great War, and even shortly thereafter.

There have always been articulate individuals to advance our agenda, it was just always useless, because our opponents later on had more, and were more committed to shutting us up or verbally whipping us.

In the end, I think it was unfortunate that GATO was the NPO's main opponent for so long because GATO never had the balls or the cohesion to effectively oppose the NPO. They simply weren't that strong.

That's not true. Later, GATO lacked the cohesion that the NPO did, but this is not at all to say that GATO never had the balls or the cohesion to face the NPO. We along with others did so thrice at the least (the others are more arguable), and did well the first.

To be honest, I don't know why I'm still going on about GATO. I think by now GATO has been forced to become resigned to certain realities. While they might argue with particulars of my argument I doubt they would argue with the main thrust.

I argue with the main thrust of your point. The only real disaster of cohesion militarily that GATO truly faced, as you seem to have earlier implied, was the Second Great War, which simply fell apart. The others were relatively well put together and ended in a stalemate, or our defeat on account of staggering differences in terms of nation strength, active members, or political weakness from earlier military losses. We couldn't have won any of the other military battles we entered in sans the aforementioned war on account of insufficient resources.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Esau of Isaac

[Ivan Moldavi]

You take my words with a grain of salt given my history? What does that even mean in this context? I just clarified and supported the point you and yours have been attempting to make for over two years.

[Ragashingo]

You take my words with a grain of salt given my history? What does that even mean in this context? I just clarified and supported the point you and yours have been attempting to make for over two years.

My guess is that he doesn't completely trust you since you were The Enemy for a long period of time.

Barb, there's no need for that kind of thing. Not only is Ivan not your enemy anymore, he might be willing to help you accomplish your goal of virtued domination.

[Esau of Isaac]

You take my words with a grain of salt given my history? What does that even mean in this context? I just clarified and supported the point you and yours have been attempting to make for over two years.

He's trying to express suspicion, because you humiliated and destroyed many of his allies for several months. Moving on is great, and it opens new paths and possibilities for everyone involved; but it is difficult to accept that this admittance is not another manipulation, and you'll have to forgive those of us that suspect you have ulterior motives.

I don't know if anything's changed, and I don't know whether I am talking to a new Ivan Moldavi, or the same one that devastated my allies and led my alliance to the brink of destruction. I welcome a unified brown, and a newfound friendship, but it is probably going to take time.

[Lizardo]

Would it be so hard to take Ivy at his word? Which, by the way, has been pretty consistent over the past year.

The past is done, move on and up.

[Angrator]

Now if you did some research on the CNARF you will find my name associated with defending it. Look on the old forums and old threads and you will see people defending it including myself. The problem is we were drowned out by opportunistic alliances using the CNARF and the participation of GATO members in it in order to try and formulate another war. When you are walking into a trap, sometimes you have to cut your losses. Given it was a side project by Walford rather than a formally adopted police of GATO, it was discarded even though many GATO members thought it was a noble endevor. If GATO did otherwise, I am sure you would be claiming it as stupidity for walking into another beatdown.

I looked at it and I respect you much more after I saw the posts. It was very painful to read. It turned into a one man pileup. You were the only one defending it at the time and no one else from your alliance spoke up. If I saw your post I would have said something. It is highly unfortunate that you were not supported, at least in that instance, because things might have been able to turn out differently had GATO had more like you.

Now on GATO organization, were you a member? How do you know it is "disorganized" as you claim. Policies shifted, in the Grenvel case quite rapidly, but that is far from a disorganized item, just a poor policy choice the AC attempted to minimize. These things can happen and again the critical thing is the issue was resolved and patched up. You seem to be the only one harping on it.

Disorganization, stupidity; they both include the meaning I am trying to convey.

Anyway, the more I am talking about this the more I am realizing how much things have changed. I am now more prepared to simply let things develop. GATO was a mess, and you know who was a warmonger. I suppose we will simply have to let things develop and see how they unfold. Don't forget that the argument about things and situations changing is not necessarily a one way street.

[Col John S Mosby]

I see GATO as more than a single alliance, but as a symbol of democracy and thus its health as an indication of the viability of democracy itself. As NPO campaigned to destroy [or at least neutralize] GATO, their leadership repeatedly said that a government legitimated by a popular mandate was inherently weak and corrupt.

Beyond that, in the aftermath of the First Great War, NPO was resolved to make it so it should never have to have its power and its methods restricted [e.g. collective punishment] ever again. So the Second and Third Great Wars were essentially instigated to eradicate democracy and establish a tyrannical minority's domination of the entire planet by force.

That having been accomplished, might-makes-right replaced discourse and tyrannical rule replaced democracy. It has been thus ever since and the population has remained flat ever since.

When we see GATO flourish again, so shall we see freedom and peace live once again. Until then, darkness shall continue to smother us all.