GATO, from the ashes reborn? Or its final humiliation?

[Angrator]

Tech raiding -> CNARF was a span of six months or so, which back then was an eternity in CN, since the game had only been around for about 10 total. We tech raided when it wasn't cool, and we fought tech raiders when that wasn't cool either. We're just trend setters.

Everything you list is spread apart by huge gaps, you're just cherry picking events and making them sound like we're a mixed-up mess. Chris didn't coup GATO, Denial was never a member (he was LUE). Depraved (our founder) couped GATO in October 06. GARO was in May 06, the NpO recognition fiasco was in October (though you do correctly connect those in that Grenval was behind both becoming international incidents).

---

I'm amazed to see this topic go for 3 pages without any trolling. Are you people sure you realize you're in a GATO thread? This is totally unlike CN.

---

Of course GATO today is different than the GATO of the past - nobody stays the same all the time, and if they did no one would want to be around them. But the reason we still have members from early 2006 is that our principles are the same. Those have never changed, though the world has always changed around us.

EDIT: Also, sup Griff. Good to see you. They treating you well over there?

I think that the propaganda machine of the NPO has been quite effective, perhaps some of my feelings towards GATO could be from some of that. And it is certainly true that the GATO was not nearly as anti- NPO as they would have us to believe. It was certainly true that you were living with fear of the NPO surrounding you for many months. I think the NPO certainly overextended their propaganda in that situation.

I still wouldn't say that I see GATO as a fully respectable alliance. They had made too many mistakes and certainly haven't had the vision that the NPO has showed. What political good came to GATO because of at first failing to recognize the NpO? Nothing. It only was public grandstanding that forced embarrassing retractions later.

This thread: Imperial Decree from the New Polar Order documents the unfolding event.

On page 14 Josef Thorne of the NPO (not to be confused with the NpO made a post on Oct 20 2006, 12:12 AM that summarized the situation at that time:

So, to clarify:

Grenval somehow gets elected, he gets flamed by ES, he tells the Orders that GATO has a super-secret double reverse disavowal of the NpO as an established alliance, even though NpO has an embassy at GATO HQ.

Then, Letum publicly states that now DO recognize NpO, but then says they don't and it will be voted on. Grenval resigns/is resigned, Letum resigns, for some reason Kaos, who "quit" CN with a dramatic flair, comes back and is made Deputy AC, and Beryl, the de facto head of GATO, cannot be found in any of the threads.

So now, GATO says they're going to vote to see if the NpO exists. A week has passed, no diplomatic moves are made toward the NpO, and no vote result as yet. Mind you, the vote is about foreign policy, which is not at all something the GA should be voting on. ES demands an answer, one way or another, and GATO cries foul, along with the usual barnacles who attach themselves to GATO's hull for the ride.

Most if not all responses to that post agree that it summarizes the situation.

Is that at all accurate? Because it seems pretty familiar to me. It sounds like a pretty disorganized mess to me.

And then let's talk about CNARF. How much defense was that ever given it by GATO members? I doubt that they gave even more than a half hearted attempt. It was allowed to be insulted and mocked on the forums without any attempt at changing the scales. People hated CNARF, and GATO was completely ineffectual in making it seem legitimate.

Let's compare this to the NPO where they have tried to rationalize every single decision that they have made. They have refused to accept their own fault for anything.

Take Tyga as one small example. A LUE member posted some inappropriate stuff on the forums. It pissed Tyga off so he nuked Duffman. What did the NPO do? Did they go back and talk about censuring Tyga? Did they talk about having some vote or something? Heck no! Tyga was far too high in the alliance to be made a fool of. He couldn't be mocked in his position. So they took his rogue action and made it into some sort of global crusade into reforming the forums. They instilled vision into their plans and made what they were doing much more than simply attacking another alliance. This has been behind all of the NPO's decisions. They have made every attempt to deflect blame and have never accepted fault easily. They understand political credibility very well. Their reputation is far greater more important to them than NS, something GATO has never been able to understand and probably never will be able to understand.

To be honest, I wouldn't touch GATO with a ten foot pole. I would only accept their help if they were a junior partner, never as a equal.

[Cataduanes]

^^ Jesus! what a way to right off a whole community while not having any idea what constitutes that community in the 'here and now' , have you taken any time at all to get to know GATO as it is now or are you simply that hateful?

Edited May 15, 2009 by Cataduanes

[John Michaels]

Wall of Text

No. Stop. You are Dumb. Seriously. Beryl is gone, Letum went to NPO, Grenval was banned, walford left, Chris Kaos was more or less forced out by NPO, depraved went to GOONS and has since left. The major trouble-makers are gone and you're holding onto the remnants of an alliance that has little in common with the modern GATO. The morons who orchestrated the petty fights that tore the alliance apart are all gone and the ones left are a mixture of new blood and the oldies worth a crap. You might have noticed you're the only one who's arguing GATO is a joke of an alliance, and that is because everyone else has understood the basic concept that the alliance has changed its charter, its leadership, its foreign policy, and its domestic policy to better suit the alliance's ideals. I left that alliance as a Deputy AC in October because I was so burnt out by all the petulant !@#$%^&*, but what you seem unable to grasp is the alliance has changed and decidedly for the better.

For Admin's sake, COUPtober was about 18 months ago. A year and a half. So much has changed, especially with GATO, that to compare the alliance today and the alliance then would reveal a picture so different you'd get whiplash if you weren't a fervent believer in these stupid old stereotypes.

Edited May 16, 2009 by John Michaels

[Angrator]

No. Stop. You are Dumb. Seriously. Beryl is gone, Letum went to NPO, Grenval was banned, walford left, Chris Kaos was more or less forced out by NPO, depraved went to GOONS and has since left. The major trouble-makers are gone and you're holding onto the remnants of an alliance that has little in common with the modern GATO. The morons who orchestrated the petty fights that tore the alliance apart are all gone and the ones left are a mixture of new blood and the oldies worth a crap. You might have noticed you're the only one who's arguing GATO is a joke of an alliance, and that is because everyone else has understood the basic concept that the alliance has changed its charter, its leadership, its foreign policy, and its domestic policy to better suit the alliance's ideals. I left that alliance as a Deputy AC in October because I was so burnt out by all the petulant !@#$%^&*, but what you seem unable to grasp is the alliance has changed and decidedly for the better.

For Admin's sake, COUPtober was about 18 months ago. A year and a half. So much has changed, especially with GATO, that to compare the alliance today and the alliance then would reveal a picture so different you'd get whiplash if you weren't a fervent believer in these stupid old stereotypes.

Nah. I'm not stupid. Just unpopular at times. Ah! It's refreshing to have people disagree with me again. GATO was a mess for a very long time. You are right that GATO hasn't made any large mistakes lately. I seriously hope that what you say is true. However, I'm not holding my breath. Although, they probably won't be as strong as they once were ever again, so they have probably lost their ability to make game changing decisions. This is probably for the better. Only until you show me a strong, powerful GATO with vision making good political decisions will I change my opinion. It's easy to not be considered a trouble maker when you're not in the top 10.

[Mandrivia_2]

Uhh... What? That's bull and you know it. You were among the few members who wished to do that, and you were the loudest of them all.

Nope, that was me.

Now, I'll be quite honest, I was Emperor of IAA for two years, and I don't recall a single significant push to launch a pre-emptive war against any alliance, ever, except for the minor war where we crushed a micro alliance that was trying to spy on us. That desire for preemption was an accusation made against us by NPO at the time of the 1V War, which is where you may be getting that, but that simply wasn't and isn't true. They did want to defend our alliance and our rights rather than just pay up, that's 100% accurate, but if I had made the call to go to war, I would have brought down 3 other very close allies of ours at the same time, and when faced with extortion or death (because let's face it, death is what they actually wanted), extortion's the better choice.

I also think Alekhine is severely underestimating our fighting capabilities. We proved we could fight during the UJW (which is what Valhalla really wanted revenge for, though they'd never admit it), it's just during the 1V War we had already decided to disband so nobody gave a damn what we did with our nations.

First part is true. I don't how good of an idea it was to not just go to war, since at least 3/4 of ferocitas was already on the Continuum's hitlist and we all would have eventually been rolled at one point or another.

As for our fighting abilities... I believe Alekhine was more accurate. In the Unjust War, we had Legion as well as several other alliances covering our backs, but any experiance IAA gained in GW3, the UjW, or any other war we fought in seemed to make no difference, as we only pulled about ~15 war declarations on NPO before update and around 7 before getting hit by the other barnacles on NPO's boat (see: TORN, failhalla), despite declaring an hour before update. And if I remember correctly, we only decided to disband after NPO inisted on us booting Junkalunka. We were not hopeful, but we were at least hoping we could get out of the war alive.

This war in particular is what makes me so very glad NPO is getting its just punishment. I hope they never ever recover any of the power or prestige they once had, as they all deserve to be wiped off the face of planet bob, simply disapear like wedgie did.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Mamaev II

[geneclar]

This thread: Imperial Decree from the New Polar Order documents the unfolding event.

On page 14 Josef Thorne of the NPO (not to be confused with the NpO made a post on Oct 20 2006, 12:12 AM that summarized the situation at that time:

So, to clarify:

Grenval somehow gets elected, he gets flamed by ES, he tells the Orders that GATO has a super-secret double reverse disavowal of the NpO as an established alliance, even though NpO has an embassy at GATO HQ.

Then, Letum publicly states that now DO recognize NpO, but then says they don't and it will be voted on. Grenval resigns/is resigned, Letum resigns, for some reason Kaos, who "quit" CN with a dramatic flair, comes back and is made Deputy AC, and Beryl, the de facto head of GATO, cannot be found in any of the threads.

So now, GATO says they're going to vote to see if the NpO exists. A week has passed, no diplomatic moves are made toward the NpO, and no vote result as yet. Mind you, the vote is about foreign policy, which is not at all something the GA should be voting on. ES demands an answer, one way or another, and GATO cries foul, along with the usual barnacles who attach themselves to GATO's hull for the ride.

Most if not all responses to that post agree that it summarizes the situation.

Is that at all accurate? Because it seems pretty familiar to me. It sounds like a pretty disorganized mess to me.

Yes, it was. It was a giant cluster$%&@, one of the big reasons depraved couped Letum. I'm sorry, what does that have to do with today?

And then let's talk about CNARF. How much defense was that ever given it by GATO members? I doubt that they gave even more than a half hearted attempt. It was allowed to be insulted and mocked on the forums without any attempt at changing the scales. People hated CNARF, and GATO was completely ineffectual in making it seem legitimate.

That's right, because CNARF was not a GATO enterprise, it was a walford enterprise. Not to mention, that was during a time when any post a GATO member made was immediately buried under the Orders' minions repeating party lines. The sheer volume of anti-GATO posts effectively overwhelmed any effort on GATO's behalf to bring reason or common sense to a debate, for probably two years, at least.

Let's compare this to the NPO where they have tried to rationalize every single decision that they have made. They have refused to accept their own fault for anything.

Take Tyga as one small example. A LUE member posted some inappropriate stuff on the forums. It pissed Tyga off so he nuked Duffman. What did the NPO do? Did they go back and talk about censuring Tyga? Did they talk about having some vote or something? Heck no! Tyga was far too high in the alliance to be made a fool of. He couldn't be mocked in his position. So they took his rogue action and made it into some sort of global crusade into reforming the forums. They instilled vision into their plans and made what they were doing much more than simply attacking another alliance. This has been behind all of the NPO's decisions. They have made every attempt to deflect blame and have never accepted fault easily. They understand political credibility very well. Their reputation is far greater more important to them than NS, something GATO has never been able to understand and probably never will be able to understand.

So, GATO is inferior because instead of blindly defending everything it does and spinning the truth to make it look better, it instead uses common sense and decency and can admit when it was wrong? Because instead of lying outright, signing worthless treaties, and shouting down any reasonable post with "hail"s, it made normal, thought-out posts and attempted real relationships with decent allies?

If you think GATO preferred public opinion over NS, you clearly are not aware of Great War II, Great War III, or the GATO-1V war. GATO hasn't been a popular alliance with the peanut gallery on the CN forums for a long time, and thank admin for that. If GATO was popular with the average poster at these times you're describing, I would have never been a member.

You talk of the NPO's sterling reputation over GATO's. While the NPO's allies abandoned her in her greatest time of need, GATO's allies sacrificed their entire alliances in the pursuit of justice. I've never seen better allies than some of the ones we've had during our toughest times. I'd never trade our reputation for NPO's, or anyone else's.

[Angrator]

I didn't really mean to get into a huge acrimonious debate, but I suppose I started it so I will have to keep on going for a little bit yet.

It seems like you think you can just wave a wand and the past disappears. Some of us at CN have long memories and it is not easy to forget everything. You admit it was a cluster #@$. Good. Why? What do you think about Walford's CNARF?

What I am getting at is that GATO has a history of letting it's members do whatever it wants, and the last two examples illustrate that letting them do whatever they want has generally been bad for GATO. We aren't just talking about low ranking guys, we are talking about senior members of the alliance unable to subordinate their own personal interests to that of the whole. Although people, including me, have denigrated the NPO because of what you call their "hails", sometimes you can't help but be just a little bit impressed at their organization and discipline.

I am not saying you shouldn't admit something when you're wrong, although I can see how you got that impression from my earlier posts. I only mean that the NPO was able to instill vision and the plethora of hails just illustrates how successful they were in instilling that vision in the grassroots of their alliance. In contract, GATO just lets its members run around and do whatever they want, and so far it hasn't really worked out well for GATO. Listen, I'm all for freedom, but it should have some limits.

[Cataduanes]

While that may have once been true your last post utterly fails to take into account GATO's status and the conduct of its members since the end of the GATO-1V war; in the many months since then GATO and its general conduct has been markedly different...its a great shame that while you have a long memory your grasp of CN, GATO and its politics in recent months seems to be non-existent.

And a plethora of hails does not necessarily equal universal respect, i think the events of the last two or so months would serve to confirm that

Edited May 16, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Angrator]

I'll wait for your post geneclar before responding.

[Sovereign Dixie]

Wow, flashbacks, man!

I was a Senator in Atlantis during the time Ferocitas was created. As one of the bloc's most vocal proponents in Atlantis I was disgusted when Atlantis withdrew from it. I also remember quite clearly Valhalla's extortion of IAA.

As for GATO and their fate, I have no idea. I have high hopes and optimism, however. I don't really think the PIAT with NPO constitutes Stockholm Syndrome though. More likely they were simply "throwing the dog a bone".

All that aside, I have faith in GATO. They've over come a lot, and now I think, they should have the hope required to fuel a resurgence back to their former glory and maybe beyond. Time will tell. They must have been doing something right though, to be the oldest alliance in CN.

[Ragashingo]

I didn't really mean to get into a huge acrimonious debate, but I suppose I started it so I will have to keep on going for a little bit yet.

It seems like you think you can just wave a wand and the past disappears. Some of us at CN have long memories and it is not easy to forget everything. You admit it was a cluster #@$. Good. Why? What do you think about Walford's CNARF?

What I am getting at is that GATO has a history of letting it's members do whatever it wants, and the last two examples illustrate that letting them do whatever they want has generally been bad for GATO. We aren't just talking about low ranking guys, we are talking about senior members of the alliance unable to subordinate their own personal interests to that of the whole. Although people, including me, have denigrated the NPO because of what you call their "hails", sometimes you can't help but be just a little bit impressed at their organization and discipline.

I am not saying you shouldn't admit something when you're wrong, although I can see how you got that impression from my earlier posts. I only mean that the NPO was able to instill vision and the plethora of hails just illustrates how successful they were in instilling that vision in the grassroots of their alliance. In contract, GATO just lets its members run around and do whatever they want, and so far it hasn't really worked out well for GATO. Listen, I'm all for freedom, but it should have some limits.

The NPO's vision is one of deceit and domination. That should NEVER be praised no matter how skillful they are in instilling that vision into their members. GATO on the other hand was trying to do good and has suffered greatly for it.

The stand against the formation of the NpO was an attempt to protect and defend our allies in the NAAC against continued NPO aggression. Remember the NPO had just won a war against NAAC and they were using the NAAC's weakened state to prop up what was at that time a puppet alliance on blue. Much later GATO changed their policy on the NpO because the NpO itself changed. It ceased being a puppet alliance and ventured out on its own ultimately becoming one of the more respected alliances of the modern CN age. Are you suggesting that GATO should have remained rigid and continued to stand against the NpO despite the NpO's change for the better?

And CNARF. I was taking one of my multiple leaves from CN when it was formed, but from what the wiki says, it was an anti tech raiding group that was ridiculed by the NPO and was ultimately destroyed by the NPO and GGA in their typical unsportsmanlike fashion. They sought to provoke an organization designed to do good by attacking random peaceful nations. They declared that they would attack the leader until he stopped trying to help the community as a whole. They have continued to mock that leader years after he ceased to be a public figure all the way up until this day. How is that praise worthy?

You are right about one thing, freedom should have limits. Its a shame that you are caught up on GATO's minor failings while you completely ignore the NPO's repeated violation of every limit that a decent alliance in this world should seek to uphold. It seems to me that you bought the NPO's propaganda hook line and sinker. How about you wake up and praise those that at least attempted to do good instead of those that are really good at being bad?

Edited May 16, 2009 by Ragashingo

[The Black Watch]

First part is true. I don't how good of an idea it was to not just go to war, since at least 3/4 of ferocitas was already on the Continuum's hitlist and we all would have eventually been rolled at one point or another.

Heh, you had to have one semi-respectable alliance in there eh?

In all honesty, I'm glad to see GATO able to play the game without the shadow of any alliance held over them and wish them the best in the coming times.

[Haflinger]

The NPO's vision is one of deceit and domination. That should NEVER be praised no matter how skillful they are in instilling that vision into their members.

...

It seems to me that you bought the NPO's propaganda hook line and sinker.

You probably should review Angrator's posting history before accusing him of being an NPO supporter.

[Ragashingo]

You probably should review Angrator's posting history before accusing him of being an NPO supporter.

Whatever his relationship with the NPO is (and I'll admit that I don't know it offhand) I'll still confront him about how what he said about GATO falls right in line with mean spirited propaganda the NPO used against GATO.

GATO has suffered for years under that propaganda, has had no real friends among the large alliances for a long time, and just finally got out from underneath a year of war then viceroyship. I am sick and tired of hearing people with long memories continuing to speak against GATO, especially when their memories seem to be tainted by what was largely a NPO effort to discredit GATO.

If there is any alliance in this game that deserves a fresh start, and the benefit of the doubt from people with long memories, it's GATO. Criticize them for mistakes they make now, I know I certainly will, but let their past (no matter what your view of it is) be the past.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Tomcat]

GATO is a classy alliance. In all my experience with them they have always been a respectful alliance and been nothing short of friendly towards people who treated them with respect. Nothing like the propaganda and misinformation that has been spread about them these past two years.

[Cataduanes]

Whatever his relationship with the NPO is (and I'll admit that I don't know it offhand) I'll still confront him about how what he said about GATO falls right in line with mean spirited propaganda the NPO used against GATO.

GATO has suffered for years under that propaganda, has had no real friends among the large alliances for a long time, and just finally got out from underneath a year of war then viceroyship. I am sick and tired of hearing people with long memories continuing to speak against GATO, especially when their memories seem to be tainted by what was largely a NPO effort to discredit GATO.

If there is any alliance in this game that deserves a fresh start, and the benefit of the doubt from people with long memories, it's GATO. Criticize them for mistakes they make now, I know I certainly will, but let their past (no matter what your view of it is) be the past.

Raga

Indeed it maters little what Angrator's motvies are but what does matter is tackling misinformation about GATO, i would urge anyone whose perception of the Global Alliance is still stuck in 2006 /2007 to go visit the GATO forum and talk to GATO members...you never know you might like what you see.

[Angrator]

I haven't heard anything that comes close to changing my opinion. All I heard was a distorted wikipedia-like entry from Ragashingo, and a couple of other non sequiturs.

If geneclar feels like posting again, I will respond. Otherwise, I think this discussion is finished.

[Ragashingo]

I haven't heard anything that comes close to changing my opinion. All I heard was a distorted wikipedia-like entry from Ragashingo, and a couple of other non sequiturs.

If geneclar feels like posting again, I will respond. Otherwise, I think this discussion is finished.

I responded to your points on GATO's stance on the NpO, as well as CNARF. If addressing your points directly isn't enough for actual discussion then I'm not sure what is.

[Angrator]

I responded to your points on GATO's stance on the NpO, as well as CNARF. If addressing your points directly isn't enough for actual discussion then I'm not sure what is.

Ah.. fine. But, if we do this, you better improve your game for the second post. And you better do a whole h3ll of a lot better than copying and pasting off of wikipedia entries.

The NPO's vision is one of deceit and domination. That should NEVER be praised no matter how skillful they are in instilling that vision into their members. GATO on the other hand was trying to do good and has suffered greatly for it.

These little two sentences contain more propaganda and rhetoric than two whole speeches of Moo-Cows, as well a healthy measure of double standard. So when the NPO protected tech raiders in the red team, it was domination but when GATO acted under CNARF it was them trying to do good?

The stand against the formation of the NpO was an attempt to protect and defend our allies in the NAAC against continued NPO aggression. Remember the NPO had just won a war against NAAC and they were using the NAAC's weakened state to prop up what was at that time a puppet alliance on blue. Much later GATO changed their policy on the NpO because the NpO itself changed. It ceased being a puppet alliance and ventured out on its own ultimately becoming one of the more respected alliances of the modern CN age. Are you suggesting that GATO should have remained rigid and continued to stand against the NpO despite the NpO's change for the better?

This flies in the face of all facts and reality. Did you read my earlier posts? How about geneclars? Did you get the part where geneclar called the events surrounding the recognition of NpO a "cluster$%&@"? And those aren't my words.

And CNARF. I was taking one of my multiple leaves from CN when it was formed, but from what the wiki says, it was an anti tech raiding group that was ridiculed by the NPO and was ultimately destroyed by the NPO and GGA in their typical unsportsmanlike fashion. They sought to provoke an organization designed to do good by attacking random peaceful nations. They declared that they would attack the leader until he stopped trying to help the community as a whole. They have continued to mock that leader years after he ceased to be a public figure all the way up until this day. How is that praise worthy?

Yeah I've read the wiki. I was there. You weren't. You don't need to quote the wiki. In your post you make it sound like CNARF was only attacked by the NPO and GGA. Did you notice what geneclar said about it? He said that it was walford's idea, and it certainly didn't sound like geneclar was excited about it. In fact, it was widely mocked all around CN, unfairly in my view, and there was no attempt by GATO to support it. Everyone hated the idea because they thought GATO was trying to become the "world police". I don't praise the NPO insulting walford, but I certainly don't praise GATO either. If something is unpopular, they don't stand up for it. They sure didn't stand up for walford. They just let others kick him down. GATO has a long history of being utterly irrelevant and ineffectual. Compare the NPO's stand to GATO. The NPO rallied around Tyga and made his decisions a central plank in their foreign policy. They went to war for him. What did GATO do? Like it always does, it caved in before pressuer. GATO allowed walford to carry out his scheme and then shortly afterwards tried to distance itself as much as possible from the decision. GATO has a history of letting its members do whatever they want, and then failing to back them up. Do current GATO members try to defend their history? No, they call important members of their alliance "troublemakers" and try to distance themselves as much as possible from previous events. You call me influenced by NPO propaganda? Talk to the people who successfully passed the NPO's prison tests, and you'll be talking to some propaganda victims.

You are right about one thing, freedom should have limits. Its a shame that you are caught up on GATO's minor failings while you completely ignore the NPO's repeated violation of every limit that a decent alliance in this world should seek to uphold. It seems to me that you bought the NPO's propaganda hook line and sinker. How about you wake up and praise those that at least attempted to do good instead of those that are really good at being bad?

Take off your rosy coloured glasses and then tell me what you see. You'll find things aren't as rosy as they first appeared.

[Ragashingo]

Ah.. fine. But, if we do this, you better improve your game for the second post. And you better do a whole h3ll of a lot better than copying and pasting off of wikipedia entries.

I did not copy and paste. I summarized.

These little three sentences contain more propaganda and rhetoric than two whole speeches of Moo-Cows, as well a healthy measure of double standard. So when the NPO protected tech raiders in the red team, it was domination but when GATO acted under CNARF it was them trying to do good?

No double standard from me. The NPO's protection of red is one of the few exceptions I make for them. I have spoken up for that policy of theirs many times in the past, just as I support anyone else who opposes tech raiding. That said, one good deed is not enough to redeem the NPO of a lifetime of wickedness.

This flies in the face of all facts and reality. Did you read my earlier posts? How about geneclars? Did you get the part where geneclar called the events surrounding the recognition of NpO a "cluster$%&@"? And those aren't my words.

No, it does not fly in the face of reality. I happened to be in GATO leadership at that time. What we did we did in attempt to stand up to NPO imperialism and in an attempt to protect our friends on blue. Now you are right, what happened later with the recognition of the NpO was idiotic, but the initial stand was not.

Yeah I've read the wiki. I was there. You weren't. You don't need to quote the wiki. In your post you make it sound like CNARF was only attacked by the NPO and GGA. Did you notice what geneclar said about it? He said that it was walford's idea, and it certainly didn't sound like geneclar was excited about it. In fact, it was widely mocked all around CN, unfairly in my view, and there was no attempt by GATO to support it. Everyone hated the idea because they thought GATO was trying to become the "world police". I don't praise the NPO insulting walford, but I certainly don't praise GATO either. If something is unpopular, they don't stand up for it. They sure didn't stand up for walford.

Well geneclar also said:

Not to mention, that was during a time when any post a GATO member made was immediately buried under the Orders' minions repeating party lines. The sheer volume of anti-GATO posts effectively overwhelmed any effort on GATO's behalf to bring reason or common sense to a debate, for probably two years, at least.

I know for a fact that at least some of GATO stood up for Walford and CNARF. I wasn't there when it started but I was there as it was ongoing and I tried to argue against the NPO propaganda and was buried just like geneclar mentioned.

Compare the NPO's stand to GATO. The NPO rallied around Tyga and made his decisions a central plank in their foreign policy. They went to war for him.

No they didn't. They went to war against the LUEicide. They were going to go to war against LUE no matter what. Tyga's nuke just made it a war they lost instead of won.

What did GATO do? Like it always does, it caved in before pressuer. GATO allowed walford to carry out his scheme and then shortly afterwards tried to distance itself as much as possible from the decision. GATO has a history of letting its members do whatever they want, and then failing to back them up. Do current GATO members try to defend their history? No, they call important members of their alliance "troublemakers" and try to distance themselves as much as possible from previous events.

You know what, you're right. GATO did have follow through problems back almost two years ago, under far different leadership. They would stand up for something good and unfortunately not follow through when most of the NPO led world opposed them.

Take off your rosy coloured glasses and then tell me what you see. You'll find things aren't as rosy as they first appeared.

I'll take them off just as soon as you agree to get over events of the distant past and recognize GATO for what it is now, what it has been for well over a year in fact. You'll find an alliance that is worth far more than you are giving it.

[Morte]

Do current GATO members try to defend their history? No, they call important members of their alliance "troublemakers" and try to distance themselves as much as possible from previous events. You call me influenced by NPO propaganda? Talk to the people who successfully passed the NPO's prison tests, and you'll be talking to some propaganda victims.

If history is as unbiased as it can be chances are that it doesn't need to be defended. I haven't called any "important" members of my alliance a troublemaker in the past year.

Other than helping us fix everything they broke the Viceroy didn't do much. Contrary to your belief there aren't threads where we were mercilessly brainwashed with Pacifican propaganda. I think it's ridiculous to say that the member who survived a long war and stuck around for the Viceroy are propaganda victims and graduates of a "prison test" when they should be proud to count themselves among the most loyal GATOans.

Oh and Raga was there.

[Cataduanes]

I haven't heard anything that comes close to changing my opinion. All I heard was a distorted wikipedia-like entry from Ragashingo, and a couple of other non sequiturs.

If geneclar feels like posting again, I will respond. Otherwise, I think this discussion is finished.

you are what in London we call a wind-up merchant, i shall leave you wallow in your own BS in that case...good day to you sir.

[Frederico Rodriguez]

If history is as unbiased as it can be chances are that it doesn't need to be defended. I haven't called any "important" members of my alliance a troublemaker in the past year.

Other than helping us fix everything they broke the Viceroy didn't do much. Contrary to your belief there aren't threads where we were mercilessly brainwashed with Pacifican propaganda. I think it's ridiculous to say that the member who survived a long war and stuck around for the Viceroy are propaganda victims and graduates of a "prison test" when they should be proud to count themselves among the most loyal GATOans.

Oh and Raga was there.

What, so i'm not important now?

People who don't think GATO has a proud past, i beg to differ, the Global Alliance has a great community with strong ideals and values, the same it has had since the very beginning. I don't believe "humiliation"

and GATO go together.

Community > Game.

[Daedalus27]

Angrator, If you are familiar with the events you use to condemn GATO, you certainly are doing so from the NPO type perspective. The propaganda tends to drowned out other perspectives and provide what I see as a tainted viewpoint. As a GATO member during this period, you cetainly seem to be using events in GATO history from a certain perspective.

CNARF was a bold experiment ahead of the Revenge doctrine and Yellow No. 5. It was an attempt by Walford and other like minds to stop the ever escalating trend of tech raiding. Unfortunately, alliances like GGA and NPO sought to attempt to use those helping the unaffiliated at a pretext for war. The bullies used their alliances to defend those attacking the weak much as the members of GATO and other like minded alliances were using their alliances to attempt to defend those being attacked. Unfortunately without sufficient backing from enough alliances and the attempts to forumlate a justification for attack on GATO, the CNARF disbanded. If GATO would have done as you suggested (and I believe desired) they would have been subjected to yet another war causing further harm. I regret that it was ahead of its time and a consensus couldn't be reached in the world regarding tech raiding that would have spared many nations from the ravages of tech raiding. However even the great NPO came around and later used the same perspective to protect those on Red from tech raiding. However, if you blame GATO for not following through, you should also blame the alliances that supported the tech raiders for derailing the organization before it could get off its feet. Perhaps if the NPO would have worked with GATO and other like minded alliances, the CNARF would have been far more successful.

The whole NpO fiasco was was very confusing. Ragashingo, I believe you have your timeline confused. The NpO recognition was well after the aftermath of GW1 where you refer to the initial crisis. It was a ploy by Grenval who had a short lived second term as MoFA. Democracies can make mistakes as many are familiar with on another planet with a mythical presidential system, for every Lincoln there is a George W. Bush so to speak. GATO worked through this grave mistake through their processes. Grenval had a very short and violent term and the Leadership tried to balance the policy adopted with trying to maintain the existing policy. It damaged relations with NpO for a long time but it was repaired prior to the 1V-GATO war with friendlier relations. If the NpO who were the victim of the mistaken policy can put it in the past, I don't see why you can't as well Angrator.

Combine this horrible PR nightmare with a coup not too far after and of course GATO could be seen negatively. The coup was quickly put down and the alliance continued onward. How many other alliances have gone through disruptions and chaos as well and not survived or come out stronger. Do you hold the NPO coup between Moo and Ivan as another example that forever tarnishes them? The fact that GATO survived and rebounded as well as it did surely is some cause for respect isn't it?

GATO was demonized and beaten to a pulp for most of its history. The fact that it still stands today says a lot. Yet some still see this survival as something of a failure. I ask you, what could GATO possibly do to change your opinion if at this point you cannot respect them? How can you honestly respect any alliance as most have not been involved in CN or survived even a portion of what GATO has. How many alliances have folded at the drop of a hat or gone quietly into the night. GATO has certainly made some mistakes, but if not for them, would CN be half as interesting as it has been. If you don't respect the alliances questionable at times history, you should certainly give it its proper respect as being a pillar of CN for most of its existance and the dedication of its diverse community.

Edited May 20, 2009 by Daedalus27

[Geanu]

You have to understand that at the time, GATO was ridiculed almost as badly as the GGA is today, minus the puppet-state accusations. Nobody would have cared if we were rolled.

We cared.