Justice For Traitors

[Proxian Empire]

In two years, when we find ourselves subjected to the latest 5,000-word atrocity by Vladimir on "How the 'Karma War' Was Really a Victory for the Order" just remember that Margrave tried to stop it.

God forbid we add to his ever increasing ego.

[He Who Has No Name]

Why smash them only once when war is so much fun?

Smash them a little and then you can do it several times. Renewable resource smashingness.

[mpol777]

I wonder if those who are promoting this being an 'endless' conflict of punishment, have any experience with that sort of thing and truly understand what it entails. I'm pretty sure the idea of running a group of dedicated folks off Planet Bob has been proven impossible and so you are left to deal with these prisoners. And therein lies the rub.

You can't just smash them to bits and say "HA!" and then ask them to sit there with their thumb up their $@!. Well you can, but you can't expect compliance. Instead you will get to deal with all of the fun things they will do like collect intelligence on you, send subversives to play the politics of your alliance to their ends instead of yours, have nations steal tech deals, add sleepers that you will help rebuild under your protection with your aid money and a myriad of other enjoyable activities. Will you really ever feel comfortable dumping money to small nations to hold and keep safe when you never really know if that nation is actually your enemy? Even if you decide to lock down recruitment in an attempt to stop some of these things, can you be sure the allies you are bound to by treaties have done the same?

That's the funny thing about a 'prison' such as this. The guards must be ever vigilant while the prisoners can rest easy as they can move when they choose. It must be tiresome for the guards. They also have the hard decision of releasing those they hold. Nobody wants to spend every waking hour attempting to make things secure, but if these people are so dangerous in prison how can they be let out? A quandary for sure. After a while I really do wonder who is the one being punished.

I've spent more time in the hole than most and I can honestly say I'd never put someone else in there. Not because of some moral question of right or wrong, but because I know all of the things that would await me on the other side.

Whatever the outcome and decisions that are made as to the treatment of others, I only hope folks think long and hard about the unintended consequences of their actions first. Well... unless they're an enemy of FAN still... then forget all that thinking stuff and do something stupid.

[Proxian Empire]

To echo the statements of Random, why do people believe there must be either "Worst Terms Ever" or "White Peace"? Why can there not be a justified balance between the two, punishing Pacifica as she deserves to be punished while not overdoing said punishment as TOP/NPO/MCXA disgracefully did to Polaris.

[Electron Sponge]

I've spent more time in the hole than most and I can honestly say I'd never put someone else in there. Not because of some moral question of right or wrong, but because I know all of the things that would await me on the other side.

Those things are waiting for all of us whether we put them in the hole or not.

[Ragashingo]

With this war Karma had the chance of changing the culture, behavior and structure of CN. Instead of taking the NPO route of beat and cripple Karma could simply give white peace to those honoring treaties and prevented planting the seed of new grudges that will only redraw the lines. By being generous you take away your enemy's reasons to seek a fight with you next time around.

If the enemy was the same as us I'd agree with you. But they aren't. What were the horribly harsh terms imposed on the NPO in GW1? The war that they took their revenge(s) on GATO over, the war they took their revenge on The Legion for? A pair of apologies, thats all. One of those apologies was even thrown back in our faces later when it was convenient to do so.

So I strongly disagree with your assessment that generous terms take away an enemy's reason to fight. Maybe it works for most, but the past three years have shown us on heck of an exception. The fact is the grudge has always been held by the NPO and while I will never support anyone wanting to hold them down (you'll find that I am actually in favor of white peace for them in the end) I would like this war to go on long enough that we'll have the rest of the year free from the NPO destroying yet another alliance.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Ragashingo

[shahenshah]

Just one question..people are only blaming NPO for past harsh reps..but If I am not wrong (I might be, its all from memories when OWF was seldom graced by my presence) many of the alliances that are on Karma side also shared the reps?

Edited May 5, 2009 by shahenshah

[Electron Sponge]

Even your leaders disagree with you.

Imagine that, a variety of opinions within one group. That's so shocking and disturbing.

[shahenshah]

Imagine that, a variety of opinions within one group. That's so shocking and disturbing.

I understand :/

Long time no new Tattlers? Is it the end or will there be more?

Edited May 5, 2009 by shahenshah

[Commisar Gaunt]

Just one question..people are only blaming NPO for past harsh reps..but If I am not wrong (I might be, its all from memories when OWF was seldom graced by my presence) many of the alliances that are on Karma side also shared the reps?

There are less who call themselves Karma who have shared in these reps than there are who have had to pay exorbitant amounts after losing a war, or had their alliance cut out from underneath them due to forced disbandment.

Nobody is ONLY blaming NPO, but NPO seems to be the target for retribution.

[SoxNation]

Just one question..people are only blaming NPO for past harsh reps..but If I am not wrong (I might be, its all from memories when OWF was seldom graced by my presence) many of the alliances that are on Karma side also shared the reps?

What has been the constant force of that side for the last 3 years though, what have the big bad boys always revolved around?

GW1 it was NpO and NPO then WUT vs League and then Aegis, then WUT left and it was Q, but NPO was always at the center. And people being honest will tell you that NPO led these blocs, what they said goes, noone else really had that much input.

[mpol777]

Those things are waiting for all of us whether we put them in the hole or not.

It is true that just because subversive actions aren't the only option, they still are an option. It's just the nature of the beast.

It used to be when an alliance member was attacked by a nation of another alliance words came before retaliation and now that isn't the case. Nukes used to be held as a weapon of last resort, but now they are flung freely into the night sky like so many pieces of confetti. Spying was shunned publicly and privately and now it is as common as buying technology. War, and the world in general, has certainly gotten much nastier as the years have gone by.

So yes it would be unreasonable to expect hugs and kisses even if leniency is granted. One should expect to be under siege by any and all means at all times. There is a difference however in the mindset of a prisoner as to a free man. A prisoner focuses on his captors while a free man is just generally paranoid.

[doctorrodders]

I think we're getting a bit off topic... but I agree with what is being said. We do need surrender terms inbetween 'White Peace' and 'your alliance is disbanded, *&% off'. Having said that, there should be indivudual terms sorted out for each alliance, as some alliances deserve more of whats comming to them than others. Please stop me if you figure out what Im trying to say here.

I also feel that alliances that deserted, and players that deserted their alliances deserve all that they get. I would like to see all alliances harbouring known cowards and traitors to dispel them from their ranks for their previous alliance to deal with. I definatly feel that the people who deserted should be shunned at least, and their names known.

Maybe just a public humiliation on the OWF would suffice, just so alliance leaders know who they cannot count on

[Unko Kalaikz]

It is necessity and not revenge that demands the crippling of enemies. The victor must crush their enemy and THEN apply mercy, half completed jobs lead to another war later. Any half sensible alliance leader would be taking advantage of these karma individual terms and having his nations surrender as sleepers.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Count da Silva

[Ragashingo]

Just one question..people are only blaming NPO for past harsh reps..but If I am not wrong (I might be, its all from memories when OWF was seldom graced by my presence) many of the alliances that are on Karma side also shared the reps?

Because the NPO is the common element.

[shahenshah]

What has been the constant force of that side for the last 3 years though, what have the big bad boys always revolved around?

GW1 it was NpO and NPO then WUT vs League and then Aegis, then WUT left and it was Q, but NPO was always at the center. And people being honest will tell you that NPO led these blocs, what they said goes, noone else really had that much input.

Because the NPO is the common element.

But an argument coming from your side, not Hegemony, also says it was that silent support (More than silent in case of harsh reps regarding MK, NpO et al) that enabled NPO to act like it did. What would be your advise to those Karma members?

It is necessity and not revenge that demands the crippling of enemies. The victor must crush their enemy and THEN apply mercy, half completed jobs lead to another war later. Any half sensible alliance leader would be taking advantage of these karma individual terms and having his nations surrender as sleepers.

Spoken like a true Sith, you will make Heft proud.

Edited May 5, 2009 by shahenshah

[doctorrodders]

And I disagree entirly with everyone who was involved should be punished. Karma started this war, and if Karma wins then good for them. But they shouldn't punish alliances for honouring treaties

[New Reverie]

But while you are engaging in such actions I will ask you where is this free cyberverse you speak of? The one where every opinion is allowed to be expressed and every sovereign alliance has the right to exist.

Where is this oppressive group you speak of? The one that is withholding these rights. You are certainly free to express your opinion, but if your opinion consists of outright lies, expect to be confronted about it.

In summation, you are a prat.

[Ragashingo]

And I disagree entirly with everyone who was involved should be punished. Karma started this war, and if Karma wins then good for them. But they shouldn't punish alliances for honouring treaties

Excuse me? The stage may have been set politically for this kind of war, but the NPO and Torn started it.

[Authur]

I agree with the statements of HellAngel and Grub.

I thought this new movement was about change not revenge. That's why so many, including myself, could get behind the basic concept. If we as a community start adopting the tactic's of those we condemn then how are we any better? The goal should be to change the mind set. To discourage the practices that lead us here. Those on the losing side will pay a heavy price from the war itself. "Justice" as some of you see it is being served right now. There is no need to kick them once they are down. Reps for starting the war are one thing but any attempts to cripple alliances should be condemned.

[Denial]

This is sad to see. Alliances like Polar are different from alliances like the NPO. There is a difference because some of us cultivated said differences. In the same time where you found out that we aren't all that different I was discovering how different some of us are. It was eye opening for sure.

In regards to the rest of your post, you state that you will "come for" those who would dispatch harsh terms. Why? You are not a part of Karma nor a part of the opposition to it. You have no say. If Polar were to have been a part of Karma I am sure it would be better off and your views would be important in shaping it, but from the outside you are the same as the rest of us spectators.

You also state that you will not tolerate harsh terms against those who saddled you with harsh terms. I can understand that I guess. What I don't understand is why so many seem to think that all there needs to be is brutal hardcore terms and white peace. There is a balance and that balance is to match the punishment to the crime. If the punishment is too light, then the crimes will be repeated. So it is my hope that when the NPO surrenders that Polar will not interfere further in the war that they are not a part of and allow Karma to deliver terms that are appropriate and will lead to putting the NPO in a place where the rest of us can actually go about our business again.

Random, you have eloquently expressed many of my thoughts on the issues raised throughout this topic. Though, there is a particular issue that both you and King Penchuk raised that really must be emphasised. There are very few within Karma that advocate the view that there exists nothing between "harsh surrender terms" and "white peace". This view has only been argued in public, ad nauseum, by opportunists that are currently fighting for, or recently fought for, the coalition commonly referred to as the Hegemony. I must say, it is rather amusing to witness alliances one day supporting the imposition of Viceroys, eternal wars, the extraction of billions in reparations from alliances waging defensive wars, and so on, and then the next day claiming that anything other than white peace is immoral. What this new propaganda line of faux moral outrage purposely ignores is that the alliances of Karma, in general, were never against surrender terms per se. Rather, the common thread between many Karma alliances is the belief that the surrender terms of the previous years, handed down by Hegemony alliances, have been far too harsh.

Surrender terms will be determined on a case by case basis. Yes, occasionally a white peace will be granted, but Hegemony alliances have been kidding themselves when they have entered peace negotiations, Coke/Pepsi signature in hand, demanding white peace. There is a delicate balance that must be found for each surrendering alliance, and the quest towards that balance will take into account myriad factors. These factors will include past transgressions, method of entry into and motivations for the war, actions on the battlefield and in peace negotiations, current and post-war strategy, the desire for positive change within the Cyberverse, and many others.

As someone that will actually be involved in developing the surrender terms that will be offered to the New Pacific Order - for those playing at home, Vanguard is a direct ally of Ordo Verde's - I can say that my input will be reconciling justice, fairness and strategy. Personally, I will seek to appropriately reprimand Pacifica for initiating a global conflict, through attacking a peripheral alliance loosely tied to what became Karma, without adequate justification and only motivated by a desperate attempt to maintain its dominance. I will seek to overturn or end the unjust external policies and practices of the New Pacific Order that have subjected communities, comprised of hundreds of players, to nothing but destruction and the long-term infringement of sovereignty. I will not pursue the disbandment or the destruction of a vibrant community, I will not pursue perpetual warfare or long-term restrictions, I will not pursue long-term control over internal alliance policy. Overall, I will keep three general things in mind: i) this is Pacifica's mess, ii) I desire a new, better standard set for the conduct and conclusion of war, and iii) the facts that have already been sufficiently expressed by Ragashingo just earlier in this thread.

I can only speak for Vanguard, and not for those other alliances standing by our side on the battlefield, but from the discussions I have had with those groups so far, I believe the general ideals I have outlined above are pervasive.

Edit: Typo.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Revanche

[SoxNation]

And I disagree entirly with everyone who was involved should be punished. Karma started this war, and if Karma wins then good for them. But they shouldn't punish alliances for honouring treaties

How can Karma possibly start a war when NPO attacked OV first? I also know that IRON attacked on the 3rd day which set off a chain bringing in my alliance.

So please explain this.

[Ragashingo]

But an argument coming from your side, not Hegemony, also says it was that silent support that enabled NPO to act like it did. What would be your opinion to those Karma members?

My opinion is that after this war everyone should get a fresh start, even and perhaps especially the NPO. World opinion was turned against them over the past few months, and I've see what a negative world opinion can do to a great alliance. It can take years to overcome. I don't wish that on anyone, and once again that includes the NPO.

If we're willing to give the NPO a fresh start, seeing as they were the common element, why would any of the other alliances receive anything less?

[Tromp]

And I disagree entirly with everyone who was involved should be punished. Karma started this war, and if Karma wins then good for them. But they shouldn't punish alliances for honouring treaties

I wasn't aware of that, I'm sorry.

[shahenshah]

My opinion is that after this war everyone should get a fresh start, even and perhaps especially the NPO. World opinion was turned against them over the past few months, and I've see what a negative world opinion can do to a great alliance. It can take years to overcome. I don't wish that on anyone, and once again that includes the NPO.

If we're willing to give the NPO a fresh start, seeing as they were the common element, why would any of the other alliances receive anything less?

Cheers, Thank You , if those alliances were given an opportunity of a new start by fighting beside Karma and if a positive change has indeed occurred, it only proves that the method is proven and is workable...and infact it is being currently employed by Karma itself.