jer Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Why do people think this fits into a greater Karma policy? The people who do the fighting make the decisions on terms. They are sovereign. Indeed. TFO and IS are the signatories here, they are the ones responsible for this embarrassment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkenstein Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I suspect there's 3 reasons for that.1: It's called the Karma war. 2: Karmas leader, Archon, seems to get called in to peace negotiations that don't involve his alliance 3: Because of the above, nobody knows where Karma ends and the other alliances begin. Archon sits on behalf of Karma but all he can do is suggest and mediate. He has no power in the final decision and it is each alliances own sovereign choice on what terms to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinoa Rex Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Congrats on peace, TSI; you're a respectable bunch on all counts. I can't say I'm particularly happy to see these kind of terms for an alliance that did the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 There is none, but either way you spin it, (if it had been at market value 3m/100t) it's mutually beneficial for both alliances. The bad thing basically is forcing them to do the tech deals.I personally would not ask this of TSI, I would have gone with white peace. But like Roquentin said, these are sovereign alliances. TFO originally demanded 13-15k tech straight up. No paying for it. Petty cowards. I stand corrected in that IS isn't too bad after all. TFO though, they tried to demand money from TP and here they are demanding tech from TSI. It doesn't matter if it is mutual beneficially, the principle of the matter is what is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Archon sits on behalf of Karma but all he can do is suggest and mediate. He has no power in the final decision and it is each alliances own sovereign choice on what terms to give. Exactly this. Archon cannot override an alliance's sovereign choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rommelgrad Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Glad to see yall get peace TSI, pretty crappy terms but war is hell I guess. Personally I would of held out, and tried to wheel and deal Let the healing process begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naamah Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 First alliance to start getting greedy, interesting. o/ peace, or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelation Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I think it was kinda dumb to give terms like these. As for the argument that they're fair because both sides signed them. All (almost all?) surrender terms through history have been signed by both sides so that would make them all fair. It doesn't really hold up. Who said they had to sign them? On a side note i disagree with all the alliances that honored there treaties getting white peace. That’s crap. If everyone does this then it takes away from those alliances that honor treaties out of character rather then knowing they will get white peace in seven days. But that’s just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Good point. Karma is a "lose" affiliation of alliances. That means its anything goes on the reps as long as you say we're not really Karma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavii Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 TFO originally demanded 13-15k tech straight up. No paying for it. Petty cowards. I stand corrected in that IS isn't too bad after all. TFO though, they tried to demand money from TP and here they are demanding tech from TSI. It doesn't matter if it is mutual beneficially, the principle of the matter is what is important. Well we agree on that. B) I was just arguing the case that even unfounded, as in this case, tech dealing reps is not as harsh as some people scream them to be. But that is for another discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowen70 Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) TFO originally demanded 13-15k tech straight up. No paying for it. Petty cowards. I stand corrected in that IS isn't too bad after all. TFO though, they tried to demand money from TP and here they are demanding tech from TSI. It doesn't matter if it is mutual beneficially, the principle of the matter is what is important. I can pull the logs where I stated pretty much straight off that I wasn't interested in getting anything for free, not money or tech. I also stated didn't care what they did with their military or their wonders and had no interest in crippling them. Edit: Just checked the logs here to make sure none of the other gov made ridiculous demands without my knowledge. RV what the hell are you talking about? Edited May 5, 2009 by cowen70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Archon sits on behalf of Karma but all he can do is suggest and mediate. He has no power in the final decision and it is each alliances own sovereign choice on what terms to give. I'm not suggesting he does. Just suggesting that others look to him, take his thoughts under advisement, etc, making him the de facto head of Karma - for appearnces sake - and adding to the confusion. Also. I would like to make clear that I highly doubt anybody in PC or their protectorates would be beholden to anyone other than PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Salovsky Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I love you guys TSI, nice war, honorable battling for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akama Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 - 250 technology, bought by Tokugawa Mitsukuni, at the rate of 3 million per 50 from TFO- 250 technology, bought by Tokugawa Mitsukuni, at the rate of 3 million per 50 from TFO Is this a typo? And it's pretty sad to see a bigger alliance like NADC get white peace, while TSI is subject to terms. :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogenes Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) In all fairness, TSI really was just following treaties when they joined this war, and I don't think they, specifically, should be punished for that. But...if you think white peace is the only way to handle a surrender and that anything else is morally wrong or dishonorable, then you need to look back on the sorts of terms which have been imposed on alliances in the past and reflect on them a bit. The fact that TSI was even given terms can be considered, in some ways, a step-up from the status quo, even if said terms aren't exactly fair to them. It's unreasonable to assume that white peace is the only sort of peace you'll see in this game. Personally, I like white peace. I think it should be used much more frequently than it has been in the past. That doesn't mean that I think it's the only way surrender should be handled, nor that I expect that. Edited May 6, 2009 by Quiziotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Who said they had to sign them? GATO did not have to agree to a Viceroy and a complete surrender or sovereignty either, but they did not have much choice, did they? A bit of a stretch, I know, but the point stands. Those who find themselves in a position of power must take on the responsibility of not abusing their newfound privileges. Others cannot be accused of having agreed to do something when a gun is pointed at their head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shurukian Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I would like to mention, as an aside, that Internet Superheroes were some of the nicest people I've ever dealt with. Extraduty wanted very little, and I offered the tech deals to him as a thank you. I thank Internet Superheroes for this war, and would like to say that they are some of the best opponents we've faced. Not only did they fight well, but Extra personally helped us out with a few problems during the war. I would ask that no one troll them, and that they be held in good regard, because they are honorable people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I can pull the logs where I stated pretty much straight off that I wasn't interested in getting anything for free, not money or tech. I also stated didn't care what they did with their military or their wonders and had no interest in crippling them. Just hope we dont see a second disbandment in a day with your wheeling and dealing playing a part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian LaCroix Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Upon Second look at these terms, I find that they are poor terms for TSI. Poor Show IS. Poor Show TFO. TSI, it is with my greatest hopes that you pull through this. I know you can do this. TFO and IS want to cripple you. But don't worry. You've got great leaders and you'll pull through. I hope that Karma finally gets IS and TFO down the line. If they wanted to cripple TSI, they could have done a much better job than these terms. That said, these terms are IS and TFO attempting to turn a profit from the war. Is that a particularly horrible thing? I suppose it's a matter of perspective. I wouldn't have asked for terms like these personally, but this isn't quite past the threshold of outrage-worthy in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I can pull the logs where I stated pretty much straight off that I wasn't interested in getting anything for free, not money or tech. I also stated didn't care what they did with their military or their wonders and had no interest in crippling them.Edit: Just checked the logs here to make sure none of the other gov made ridiculous demands without my knowledge. RV what the hell are you talking about? Listen, I talk to quite a few people. I know what the original demands. Now tell me, why did you demand reps? Is it because you simply partook in this war to profiteer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youwish959 Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 You guys should be honored to know you fought well enough that they need reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelation Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 GATO did not have to agree to a Viceroy and a complete surrender or sovereignty either, but they did not have much choice, did they? A bit of a stretch, I know, but the point stands. Those who find themselves in a position of power must take on the responsibility of not abusing their newfound privileges. Others cannot be accused of having agreed to do something when a gun is pointed at their head. Would that be a pixel killing gun? I agree that there might be a case for abuse but it was their war and they chose to enter it and they chose to sign the terms. They could have asked higher ups for help if they wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sethb Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Sad to see terms given to an alliance for honoring treaties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diomede Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I am disappointed that TSI must pay reps at all to gain peace for honouring a treaty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Cato Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Finally some good terms! Congrats to all parties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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