Starcraftmazter Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I'm sorry but I do not support this. Whether what NPO did was right or wrong is irrelevant. You were in an alliance allied to them, who had the courage to declare war in NPO's support, against all odds. The fact that you decide to betray your alliance at such a time is unconscionable. The fact that they changed their minds is not your fault, but you should stay and fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Snip Thank you for clarifying. I can see I judged you without holding all the facts and I apologise for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirrus Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I do understand, which is why I am trying to explain our position instead of working my day job. We did not post the announcement yesterday because we were busy trying to finalize which nations would be coming with us. It's not like we have a whole diplomatic staff; we are small in numbers and have to make priorities with our time. Then, literally minutes before we posted it (like, we had the forum open to do so), Echelon went and effectively declared neutrality. At that point, why rush? Those who had agreed to come deserved to be informed about the situation change before doing anything, and with Echelon seemingly out of the war there was no rush. We decided to go to bed, since the drama was winding down and we had plenty of time. Then Echelon did its SECOND major flip flop of the day and declared war in the middle of the night due to pressure on the forums, long after it was appropriate to do so. So yes, I can understand the criticism. Can you understand why we left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death666Angel Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I hope my leadership will enact the usual traitor procedure of ZI once this other mess is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US of Europe Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 As has been noted, we have been discussing this with GR for some time. There was no discussion in Echelon about which side to join. Leadership withheld information from the membership, did not provide an opportunity for debate, and simply made the assumption that everyone would be happy to fight for NPO's hegemony. It would have been better if we had done it 2 days ago, but alas, everything becomes complicated. In fact we were prepared to make the switch last night before the revolution got going in full swing, but decided to wait until today when Echelon backed away from NPO, so we could move on good terms.Furthermore, Echelon released us! Echelon leadership sent out a message last night saying that any nations who wanted to join the war were free to do so, provided they leave Echelon first. Then somebody in Echelon declared war long after update when everyone else was in bed, so we had to move on less than ideal terms. If GR decides to go back on our negotiations because the forum doesn't like us, that is their choice and we will respect it. However, I want to note that this has nothing to do with protecting infrastructure. We are willing to be ZIed if that's where this goes. In fact, we began negotiations to move before knowing that this would be such a curbstomping; we expected to be on the smaller side of the war. But we would rather die in support of a good cause than be cannon fodder for an empire we don't agree with. This merits some explanation. Those who remember me may have noticed that I haven't been on the boards for a long time. This is because I haven't been active. During peace time we were content to sit back, send out aid when requested by the alliance, and not be involved in greater robertopolitics. When it became clear that war was coming, we immediately began making preparations to move. Unfortunately, rounding up a group of people, talking the situation over with them, coming to a consensus, then finding a place to go takes time. Thank you. Ironically, this announcement was written yesterday before the revolution began. We are small group of nations and frankly don't merit a large thread on the OWF, but we had hoped that it would add to the political pressure on the NPO side of the war, and help to convince fence sitters to join the war. Obviously with the war becoming a popular revolution, that turned out not to be necessary. We could have left Echelon and nobody outside that alliance would have been the wiser, but with our alliance flip-flopping all over the place, we decided it would make sense to let everyone know where we stand. For the record, we stand for the side of right, regardless of what that does to our infrastructure. This post explains it quite well, thank you for the clarification. Best of luck on our side, we've got cookies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death666Angel Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Leadership withheld information from the membership, did not provide an opportunity for debate, and simply made the assumption that everyone would be happy to fight for NPO's hegemony. Leadership shared all the information they had. And yes, leadership thought it was obvious that we would follow through with our treaties, and not decide which to cancel. When you disbanded MAD and joined us, you acknowledged all our ties and treaties and regardless of how you felt about them, you had to honor them. Furthermore, Echelon released us!Echelon leadership sent out a message last night saying that any nations who wanted to join the war were free to do so, provided they leave Echelon first. Then somebody in Echelon declared war long after update when everyone else was in bed, so we had to move on less than ideal terms. Please provide the actual pms. I have not received anything of the like neither can I find anything in the leadership section. I also think it is a bad show by GR when they talk with a considerable portion of our membership about taking them in without notifying Echelon of that. Edited April 22, 2009 by Death666Angel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chogsilanimous Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Can you understand why we left? I can understand why you may have wanted to leave, yes... However, I know that if I was in such a position I would have stayed in the alliance of whom I was a member until after the war was done and dusted. If you didn't want to fight you didn't have to... nobody was going to force you to. As you said yourself, the gov directive was for any nations not interested in fighting the war to go into peace mode for their own sake. Leaving an alliance after a DoW is just not an honourable thing to do... I'm sorry, that's just how I view it. Having said that... it's better to have would-be deserters out of the alliance rather than have them hiding in our ranks and being potential spies. And this has nothing to do with any of the MAD members as individuals... I'd be saying the same thing no matter who the members were or who the alliance they left was. Simple as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTrapp8473 Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Furthermore, Echelon released us!Echelon leadership sent out a message last night saying that any nations who wanted to join the war were free to do so, provided they leave Echelon first. I must have missed that memo... The only message I received was from MoD informing us that we're at war. You benefited from Echelon's protection, aid programs, ect. during peacetime. And now, when we need you most, you guys turn your guns on us. This is treason at it's worst, your nothing but cowards. Edited April 22, 2009 by JTrapp8473 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajistani Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 For the record, we stand for the side of right, regardless of what that does to our infrastructure. So you leave your treaty obligation, to join the winning side of the war? I fail to see how this makes sense. Maybe your IQ surpasses mine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cirrus Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Actually I would be surprised if anyone who is leaving ever did anything but give to the aid programs. That's fine; it's part of being in an alliance and we are happy to do so. But it's not like we are cutting and running with a bunch of Echelon cash. If it is your policy for former members to "settle up" on former aid, I will be happy to send you a bill. Otherwise that matter should be closed. I have to work my day job. Will be back later. Edited April 22, 2009 by Cirrus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuterium Dawn Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) Have fun running for your pixels. Edited April 22, 2009 by Deuterium Dawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kowalski Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I don't understand this, or the point of this announcement. Sure individuals leave during a war and get stick from alliance mates. A number of individuals even. But to package yourselves together as a group, using the name of your ex-alliance, and move en mass with an OWF thread to another alliance? Why? Just do it, do you think anyone would notice/care? I don't understand what you hope to achieve from this announcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hasin Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Wow. I sincerely hope GR doesn't accept scum like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajistani Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I don't understand this, or the point of this announcement. Sure individuals leave during a war and get stick from alliance mates. A number of individuals even. But to package yourselves together as a group, using the name of your ex-alliance, and move en mass with an OWF thread to another alliance? Why? Just do it, do you think anyone would notice/care? I don't understand what you hope to achieve from this announcement. "Hey they may be stupid, and dishonorable, but atleast they tell the truth?" )): )): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicalTrevor Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Grow a pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icheliebebrad Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Such honor /sarcasm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F15pilotX Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Grats on getting rid of the deserters, Echelon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gn0xious Jr Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 It seems like GR already gave their word about letting them come over, and GR has always been good on its word. I doubt all the political opinion in the world will change that. I trust GR knows what they are doing. When GR gives our word to help anyone that requests assistance, we honor it. These discussions/decisions took place prior to the war breaking out. The larger issue is in the timing of their announcement. Prior to the war, they'd have been given no ill will. The fact that it was announced after the war seems to be the real issue here. Regardless, I hope that GR does honor their word. GR hasnt been the same without BoB now he had class. I suppose this is your opinion, and to each their own. I've been with GR now for the pre-Bob and post-Bob and can honestly say that GR has changed for the better. We are a closer family within, and we strive for the ideals that GR has been known for. Think how you will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanru Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Well, this is interesting. I understand your reasoning and see why you were looking to move but, your order seems all wrong. If you were looking for a change wouldn't it have been better to give echelon notice before seeking out negotiations with GR, letting them know you are unhappy with the direction the alliance seems to be headed and provide them an opportunity to correct it. Hell, they probably would have given MAD a protectorate and let you fly the banner of your old AA for a few weeks while your sorted out your move. I have a lot of respect for the alliance once called MAD, and Cirrus, your character has been one I've enjoyed reading about. I'll just say good luck in handling the public backlash that will undoubtedly flow from this decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolkheleknar Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I find it extraordinarily hilarious that Echelon feels that it's justified calling MAD's actions into question given recent events. Also, you really could have handled this better MAD and I hope you put your money where your mouth is. GR's name is not one to so lightly besmirch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzptm Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 This is pretty pathetic. Deserting under fire is never honourable. But Echelon canceled its MADP with NPO after invoking it, so are they technically still under fire? Er, um... No. Wait. It seems- No, that's not it, either. Hmmm. Say, MAD, do you have a protectorate agreement with anyone? That might help clarify the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcraftmazter Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 But Echelon canceled its MADP with NPO after invoking it, so are they technically still under fire? Echelon is tied to NPO via 1V regardless of that treaty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epiphanus Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Please don't betray the GR, MAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kowalski Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) But Echelon canceled its MADP with NPO after invoking it, so are they technically still under fire?Er, um... No. Wait. It seems- No, that's not it, either. Hmmm. Say, MAD, do you have a protectorate agreement with anyone? That might help clarify the situation. Is there actually an alliance called MAD anymore? Were these people ever Echelon or just an alliance inside an alliance? They merged into Echelon but now seem to be making announcements again. MAD reform from Echelon and immediately merge with GR? Edited April 22, 2009 by Kowalski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Yvl Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I don't really see why you would bear any ill will towards them, After all, they didn't abandon GR right before a war. They abandoned the 'other side'. I was talking about the people who abandoned US. Kowalski, this announcement indeed should not have been made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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