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MAD members split from Echelon


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But at the time when you were talking to us it hadn't been. Then you went and made this announcement without telling us. Again, mis-communication. Have fun fighting the war but it just doesn't appear that fighting it with GR is the best path of action at this time.

Darn those communication problems, eh?

We had some of those earlier too.

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Apr 22 00:29:27 <El_Hefe[Echelon]> let them know that we are first

Apr 22 00:29:44 <suffusion> And if they still wish to fight?

Apr 22 00:30:58 <El_Hefe[Echelon]> they can leave Echelon to do so

Taken out of context. Hef stated that we come first. Your alliance is always first in a time of war. If you think you could somehow help your alliance moreover by going over to another one and fighting on a different front (against the same enemy), well, that's a whole lot different from leaving overall.

Also, Suf and Cir, what you did will not be forgiven. Likewise what DA said, I hope my government pursues you and gives you the highest penalty for your actions. It's too bad I didn't have more time to help out (biochem exam, lab report due tomorrow) with the war effort but rest assured, I'll be joining the war ASAP.

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We made it clear in proper back channels that we wanted to be on the other side, and were told by Echelon's government that was acceptable. Then we went to bed. Then you betrayed us.

If it wasn't acceptable for us to leave, you should have told us as much instead of giving us the OK in private then changing your minds about it in public while we weren't around.

If your idea of alliance loyalty is to lie to members trying to do the right thing and then throw them under the bus, well, I think that speaks for itself.

Edited by Cirrus
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Taken out of context. Hef stated that we come first. Your alliance is always first in a time of war. If you think you could somehow help your alliance moreover by going over to another one and fighting on a different front (against the same enemy), well, that's a whole lot different from leaving overall.

Also, Suf and Cir, what you did will not be forgiven. Likewise what DA said, I hope my government pursues you and gives you the highest penalty for your actions. It's too bad I didn't have more time to help out (biochem exam, lab report due tomorrow) with the war effort but rest assured, I'll be joining the war ASAP.

AYB, I've got huge amounts of respect for you, but it is actually YOUR quote that is out of context.

Apr 22 00:28:56 <suffusion> Right. But they are still keen on fighting NPO anyway. Or I imagine so. I doubt they've all filtered that Echelon is out of this.

Apr 22 00:29:27 <El_Hefe[Echelon]> let them know that we are first

Hefe wanted me to let people know that Echelon was neutral before telling them to hop sides. Not that he wanted us to fight a fight that DID NOT EXIST before leaving.

I'm sorry that Echelon didn't have its foreign affairs figured out last night. It is not my fault that you made a treaty, canceled that treaty, found out there was a backlash to that cancellation and so turned around and honored it. I have logs of people last night telling me we were done with NPO and that they would be kicked out of 1V in the coming days. Is that still true? I don't really care. I think you all need to be careful about posting in this thread, since clearly none of you can speak for your alliance individually.

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I can post more logs here, but our intention was never to cause trouble for GR. I apologize for doing that.

I appreciate hearing that and wish you the best of luck in getting the rest of it sorted out.

Darn those communication problems, eh?

We had some of those earlier too.

Yeah, luckily ours didn't affect more than 15 members or try to betray our allies.

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Anyone calling them deserters fails at reading comprehension. They left to avoid the deserters and happened to be caught off-guard by a surprise U-Turn from Echelon gov last night.

This is in essence what I've gleaned, and in my opinion it is completely understandable. The situation has been poorly handled, but I'm not holding it against them. What their status is now, however, is left up to Drai and the rest of the government. While I perfectly understand why everyone is worked up into a frenzy over this (tensions are high, everyone wants a fun war: hell, I want to fight, but I was ordered to peace mode, and bunch of alliances just went and made the past few days feel...anticlimactic), but I think it's always best to have all the facts, instead of judging them based on assumptions. If that makes me a monster, so be it. I already eat babies, so I suppose it's not that big of a jump.

I will also verify the fact that they were discussing it with us prior to ours and Echelon's declaration of war. I was in our private channels and there was some talk of a few Echelon nations joining us for the war. I thought nothing about it and went off to do something else on IRC. I can probably pull up logs if need be.

I'd also like those who will/are trolling this announcement to spend a few minutes and read the clarifications made after the OP; but that's a pipe dream, no?

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I'm sorry that Echelon didn't have its foreign affairs figured out last night. It is not my fault that you made a treaty, canceled that treaty, found out there was a backlash to that cancellation and so turned around and honored it.

One thing that needs clarification here Suf.... Echelon cancelled a bi-lateral treaty with NPO. However we never cancelled our multi-lateral 1V treaty (of which NPO is a signatory). So to say that we cancelled a treaty and then pulled a U-turn is to tell a lie.

We cancelled one treaty and then proceeded to honour another.

Although I do accept that fact could have been communicated a lot more effectively.

lol echelon. Why dont you just stay and fight? Your allies need you know more then ever, why run?

Who's running where? :unsure:

Cause it ain't Echelon.... that's for sure.

Edited by Chogsilanimous
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I would like to thank Drai for clarifying GRs position :).

Cirrus, Suffusion: You were members for some time, even part of gov't once, so I have to assume you know our laws. We do not have a supreme dictator by the name of El_Hefe. I cannot understand his reasoning behind making those statements and can only assume he was under considerable stress and too confused to deal with the situation properly, further evidenced by his complete lack to show up today.

I also don't know how you handled this issue with my leadership, but I have not seen any post from MAD members or from my gov't that was about this issue, before you announced this thread on our forums. So while some of my gov't may be at fault as well, no proper procedures were followed in this instance, so there is no legal argument to be made for you doing anything other than committing treason by leaving Echelon during a time of war. And after we handled the internal issues involved in this, and get done with the actual war that is going on, I sincerely hope we will be able to pay you back in kind.

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As has been noted, we have been discussing this with GR for some time. There was no discussion in Echelon about which side to join. Leadership withheld information from the membership, did not provide an opportunity for debate, and simply made the assumption that everyone would be happy to fight for NPO's hegemony. It would have been better if we had done it 2 days ago, but alas, everything becomes complicated. In fact we were prepared to make the switch last night before the revolution got going in full swing, but decided to wait until today when Echelon backed away from NPO, so we could move on good terms.

Furthermore, Echelon released us!

Echelon leadership sent out a message last night saying that any nations who wanted to join the war were free to do so, provided they leave Echelon first. Then somebody in Echelon declared war long after update when everyone else was in bed, so we had to move on less than ideal terms.

If GR decides to go back on our negotiations because the forum doesn't like us, that is their choice and we will respect it. However, I want to note that this has nothing to do with protecting infrastructure. We are willing to be ZIed if that's where this goes. In fact, we began negotiations to move before knowing that this would be such a curbstomping; we expected to be on the smaller side of the war. But we would rather die in support of a good cause than be cannon fodder for an empire we don't agree with.

This merits some explanation. Those who remember me may have noticed that I haven't been on the boards for a long time. This is because I haven't been active. During peace time we were content to sit back, send out aid when requested by the alliance, and not be involved in greater robertopolitics. When it became clear that war was coming, we immediately began making preparations to move. Unfortunately, rounding up a group of people, talking the situation over with them, coming to a consensus, then finding a place to go takes time.

Thank you.

Ironically, this announcement was written yesterday before the revolution began. We are small group of nations and frankly don't merit a large thread on the OWF, but we had hoped that it would add to the political pressure on the NPO side of the war, and help to convince fence sitters to join the war.

Obviously with the war becoming a popular revolution, that turned out not to be necessary. We could have left Echelon and nobody outside that alliance would have been the wiser, but with our alliance flip-flopping all over the place, we decided it would make sense to let everyone know where we stand.

For the record, we stand for the side of right, regardless of what that does to our infrastructure.

I agree that this explanation is quite sufficient. What people must understand is that the average citizen of GR didn't know this was going on either. It seems that circumstances have caused timetables to advance quicker than usual and that under normal circumstances there would have been more notification to all involved. The timing is all that looks bad, but I trust that this was in normal due process before the $hit hit the fan.

Edit: And after reading Drai's post it seems this war is causing due process to be suspended. Probably the right call.

Edited by Minucci
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I would like to thank Drai for clarifying GRs position :).

Cirrus, Suffusion: You were members for some time, even part of gov't once, so I have to assume you know our laws. We do not have a supreme dictator by the name of El_Hefe. I cannot understand his reasoning behind making those statements and can only assume he was under considerable stress and too confused to deal with the situation properly, further evidenced by his complete lack to show up today.

I also don't know how you handled this issue with my leadership, but I have not seen any post from MAD members or from my gov't that was about this issue, before you announced this thread on our forums. So while some of my gov't may be at fault as well, no proper procedures were followed in this instance, so there is no legal argument to be made for you doing anything other than committing treason by leaving Echelon during a time of war. And after we handled the internal issues involved in this, and get done with the actual war that is going on, I sincerely hope we will be able to pay you back in kind.

I'm sorry DA, let me quote from Section 1, Article C of the Echelon Charter:

ii.(a) Recognizing the importance of strong leadership, Echelon recognizes two specific individuals as the legitimate Sovereigns of Echelon: the Directorate. These individuals (Directors) are granted the absolute authority to govern Echelon as they see fit, operationally (termed Executive Orders) and legislatively, limited only by the proscribed laws of this constitution.
Emphasis is my own.

Did I do the classy thing? No I did not. Was it sanctioned by a legal ruler of your alliance? Yes it was. You can still threaten me with ZI. I'm fine with that. I'd rather not fight Echelon nations, but will defend myself if necessary. At this point, though, this seems to be something between a couple of nations and their alliance and not useful fodder for the OWF.

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Wait... you were negotiating with another alliance about leaving en masse while still part of an allaince. Then you leave during a war and you also invite all members from the old allaince to join in the new alliance?

There are about 10 things that you did that should get you crushed... good luck cowards!

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I would like to thank Drai for clarifying GRs position :).

Cirrus, Suffusion: You were members for some time, even part of gov't once, so I have to assume you know our laws. We do not have a supreme dictator by the name of El_Hefe. I cannot understand his reasoning behind making those statements and can only assume he was under considerable stress and too confused to deal with the situation properly, further evidenced by his complete lack to show up today.

I also don't know how you handled this issue with my leadership, but I have not seen any post from MAD members or from my gov't that was about this issue, before you announced this thread on our forums. So while some of my gov't may be at fault as well, no proper procedures were followed in this instance, so there is no legal argument to be made for you doing anything other than committing treason by leaving Echelon during a time of war. And after we handled the internal issues involved in this, and get done with the actual war that is going on, I sincerely hope we will be able to pay you back in kind.

I thought El Hefe was one of the two directors of Echelon? Doesn't he have the power to make executive decisions?

Also from reading this post... Are you the defacto singular ruler of Echelon now? Cause that new charter you posted a little while ago said you had two directors.

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Reachwind, I am not gov't. When I spoke about "my leadership" and "my gov't" I left out the term "alliance". Neo Anglia is the other half of our directorate.

And no, I do not recognise that one Director can make such a call without talking to his counterpart, or the PM, and that is also the stance of Neo Anglia if I read his post correctly. We have no dictatorship.

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Reachwind, I am not gov't. When I spoke about "my leadership" and "my gov't" I left out the term "alliance". Neo Anglia is the other half of our directorate.

And no, I do not recognise that one Director can make such a call without talking to his counterpart, or the PM, and that is also the stance of Neo Anglia if I read his post correctly. We have no dictatorship.

Ah cool. I wasn't sure.. This sure is a mess. Where is Ross when you need him?

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If one member of your two member government gave us an answer without consulting the other member, that is not our fault. How are we supposed to know if your government doesn't follow its own processes?

Edited by Cirrus
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One thing that needs clarification here Suf.... Echelon cancelled a bi-lateral treaty with NPO. However we never cancelled our multi-lateral 1V treaty (of which NPO is a signatory). So to say that we cancelled a treaty and then pulled a U-turn is to tell a lie.

We cancelled one treaty and then proceeded to honour another.

Although I do accept that fact could have been communicated a lot more effectively.

Who's running where? :unsure:

Cause it ain't Echelon.... that's for sure.

Interesting...so you're saying you canceled a high level treaty for no reason at all? That doing so was no indicator as to the state of your alliance's position on current events? No, I'm afraid that's not how things work. What you did was to neglect to cut all ties with NPO in your haste and, once you found your haste to be harmful to your PR, tried to absorb the damage by taking advantage of failing to completely cut ties with NPO.

Treaty cancellation = clear indicator of FA position. Turning around and activating another treaty with the alliance you canceled on (especially right after facing massive disapproval of your cancellation) = 180. In fact, I'm surprised you didn't hurt yourselves turning around so fast. /sarcasm

-----------------

Back to the main topic:

I wish events had not screwed up the timing of this as they have. If things had gone as planned-as it has been shown here-these members would have left before Echelon declared, especially considering they'd no indication Echelon was going to be anything but neutral when they got off that night. They can't be faulted for what happened while they were not on. For those claiming they should have stuck with Echelon either way once they declared: This was basically a done deal from what I've read. An actual decision, made before the declaration of war by Echelon, far outweighs the formality of not having yet switched AAs. I won't fault them for following their consciences even in the face of massive disapproval.

-Drac

Edited by Dracule Mihawk
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Interesting...so you're saying you canceled a high level treaty for no reason at all? That doing so was no indicator as to the state of your alliance's position on current events? No, I'm afraid that's not how things work.

He didn't say that. We cancelled the treaty for specific reasons, which we stand by and we believe said cancellation has achieved the reaction we hoped for. However, we had been gearing up for a war for weeks and not once was there a credible plan to not follow through with it.

This was basically a done deal from what I've read.

Except for everyone in Echelon. It's like slavery was a done and legitimate deal, except no one bothered to ask the slaves. O_o

Edited by Death666Angel
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