Trouble at the MCXA?

[Doug Falkner]

Do you think that has anything to do with those who left's conduct while in MCXA?

Perhaps, I just think that once everyone got over the initial worry about so many people leaving, people just realized that we have far more good people remaining. Really, we're an alliance of around 700 people, while not everyone is active, there are enough active people that losing 30 or 40 people (though 30 or 40 of the more active) isn't something that we can quickly make up. Indeed, I've seen a blossoming of a lot of the people who've been in the alliance for a while, been active, but largely haven't before played as central a role.

For example, I've noticed that our Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been flooded by people who want to be diplomats, our new MoFA Jimmy has done an astounding job and I think has done more to repair our relationship with NpO than his predecessor did in the entire time he was in office (note: this isn't intended as a slight to DA in anyway, I know you tried but I think history was working against you). Our Ministries of Finance and Interior are rebuilding nicely under the watchful eyes of Rextu and KingEd. And for the most part our Ministry of Defense was left intact (we lost the people in the ministerial level but the folks who did most of the day to day tasks all remained).

I think once people realized that the folks leaving didn't actually hurt us all that badly, people were rather excited at the possibilities opened up by the change. Indeed, we've seen a mini-explosion of applications by folks who left the MCXA in the past and who now want to return.

[Prodigal Moon]

I believe that several TSO members contacted MCXA's allies prior to leaving to asure the treaties were more then safe. Although that in itself was not really in doubt, I believe some allies were contacted to make sure.

But don't quote me on it.

Quoted

If that was the case, then it's nice to hear.

[King Srqt]

The name of this thread is tasteless in my opinion, whether Gopher agreed to it or not I think it was a disrespectful way to present yourself. that is about the extent of my opinion on the situation. Good luck to all involved.

[WalkerNinja]

For the first two, the general feeling seems to be the exact opposite, actually. What is being said is that the majority of experienced leaders left at once, which can never be a good thing. Any benefits arising from that would be from those left overcoming the obstacles invariably thrown up in their way without any significant preparation. As for the last one, I think the only person that's been seriously claiming anything close to that in this thread is Sponge, but that's kind of Sponge's "thing" and most people just skim past those parts and move on, because anything else really isn't worth the trouble.

Perhaps this is the case, but the posts espousing the positions that I addressed were lodged in my mind when I sat down to type something out. I'll have to read through the thread again later.

Need some mud?

[Valashu]

Quoted

Left myself wide open for that one .

[Delta1212]

You have been expelled by the majority of the "traitors", is your opinion really that unbiased?

post at logan, about our original plan, too bad you messed it up

The member who "leaked" TSO was brought into it by a disagreement between some members, and because the majority of TSO did not want her in the discussion, left again, then leaked it. She did not do it due to her virtue or love for the MCXA.

Ok, I wasn't praising this move as excellent in my initial post, and for reasons I think I laid out adequately, but I still gave you then benefit of the doubt.

Now the story is changing from an open and amicable decision to split to a co-conspirator backed out and leaked the idea to the membership? And to top it off this caused you to change plans from a slow secret transition to a sudden ragged one? That has to be the single most poorly handled plan I have ever seen, and I've seen some doozies. You better thank the heavens you have a half-way decent spin team or this could have turned out considerably uglier if what you say is true.

[Bob]

More than a few have left during their terms (I can list them if you like), but I did not. In fact, I had intended to retire my membership in the alliance a full term before I did, but remained in office to lend a degree of continuity during a time of crisis. I didn't particularly like doing that and privately informed the government of it when I did so. I was basically a figure head my last term.

So was everything done exactly how I would do it? No, probably not, but I said that in my opening post.

Being one of those to have left while in office, its not a major thing unless its the whole government leaving en masse. Oh wait, that's what's happened here :/

There are some people that were probably hurt by this, and I can understand that. Does it take 19 pages of histrionics from uninvolved parties on the Open World Forum to express that? No. Splits and splinters are fundamentally internal issues. From all I have seen over the past week, this one has been handled better than most (which I also expressed in my opening post). Was it handled perfectly? Clearly not, but it was handled much better than most.

I agree with you regarding the unnecessary nature of most of this thread, splits and splinter alliances are internal problems but when so much of the government is involved in it, this kind of thing is to be expected. When you consider that most of them were what we consider the public face of MCXA, its natural to understand the apprehension regarding what has happened here and the 19 pages of reactions. If (I just pulled a couple of TOP govt names who I recognized off the wiki, I believe they are up to date but I am not sure) Saber, Dr. Dan, Feanor Noldorin, DJPenguin, Timberland and Bodvar Jarl all left TOP and MCXA had given them a protectorate, there would be this length of thread. If any sanctioned alliance did something like this/had something like this happen to them, there would be this length of thread. Personally after reading this topic beyond TOP assuring us that it was handled well, I've seen people like logan and nc1701 posting about the conduct of TSO members being in question, and so I'm not sure about how well this split was handled by all of the involved parties. Personally the fact that I haven't seen Gopherbashi or Dr. Fresh post in this thread besides to correct a misconception speaks for itself about how well this was handled.

You have been expelled by the majority of the "traitors", is your opinion really that unbiased?

post at logan, about our original plan, too bad you messed it up

The member who "leaked" TSO was brought into it by a disagreement between some members, and because the majority of TSO did not want her in the discussion, left again, then leaked it. She did not do it due to her virtue or love for the MCXA.

FakeEdit: dangit Delta, you addressed this so well already ):

Edited February 23, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[youwish959]

Perhaps, I just think that once everyone got over the initial worry about so many people leaving, people just realized that we have far more good people remaining. Really, we're an alliance of around 700 people, while not everyone is active, there are enough active people that losing 30 or 40 people (though 30 or 40 of the more active) isn't something that we can quickly make up. Indeed, I've seen a blossoming of a lot of the people who've been in the alliance for a while, been active, but largely haven't before played as central a role.

For example, I've noticed that our Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been flooded by people who want to be diplomats, our new MoFA Jimmy has done an astounding job and I think has done more to repair our relationship with NpO than his predecessor did in the entire time he was in office (note: this isn't intended as a slight to DA in anyway, I know you tried but I think history was working against you). Our Ministries of Finance and Interior are rebuilding nicely under the watchful eyes of Rextu and KingEd. And for the most part our Ministry of Defense was left intact (we lost the people in the ministerial level but the folks who did most of the day to day tasks all remained).

I think once people realized that the folks leaving didn't actually hurt us all that badly, people were rather excited at the possibilities opened up by the change. Indeed, we've seen a mini-explosion of applications by folks who left the MCXA in the past and who now want to return.

I for one am glad to hear this. Especially, after the certain elements I disliked about MCXA are now gone. I think MCXA will be much better off without those members, and will grow and prosper even further.

[Libera]

I for one am glad to hear this. Especially, after the certain elements I disliked about MCXA are now gone. I think MCXA will be much better off without those members, and will grow and prosper even further.

Now if only soldier would get rid of certain elements I dislike then they would be much better off

[Lyria]

I think everything is written within this passage that needs saying.

Had those "loyal MCXA members" not created that much drama, the transition would have been smoother and a lot less sudden.

You're blaming MCXA members for the drama now? Seriously? Because they brought to the alliance's attention that the majority of government wanted to leave, it's their fault for this mess?

Bigwoody said it best. You made your own alliance into someplace that none of you wanted to be. Each and every member of TSO who left from the MCXA disgusts me. You're cowards, immature, and unable to claim responsibility for your own actions.

[Chinatownbus]

Ok, I wasn't praising this move as excellent in my initial post, and for reasons I think I laid out adequately, but I still gave you then benefit of the doubt.

Now the story is changing from an open and amicable decision to split to a co-conspirator backed out and leaked the idea to the membership? And to top it off this caused you to change plans from a slow secret transition to a sudden ragged one? That has to be the single most poorly handled plan I have ever seen, and I've seen some doozies. You better thank the heavens you have a half-way decent spin team or this could have turned out considerably uglier if what you say is true.

Not enough attention has been given to this. Therefore I am quoting Delta's post to make sure it is read and pondered over, because it is a very important point.

Why has the story changed now?

Also, someone noted that MCXA elections typically have 60 voters, of which 40 have left. That leaves 20 voters in an alliance of 677 members. Trouble at the MCXA? I should say so.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Chinatownbus

[Blacky]

If Saber, Dr. Dan, Feanor Noldorin, DJPenguin, Timberland and Bodvar Jarl all left TOP and MCXA had given them a protectorate, there would be this length of thread.

So true.

It's part of the nature of digisapiens on digiterra. Double standards are so common.

[Reason]

You're blaming MCXA members for the drama now? Seriously? Because they brought to the alliance's attention that the majority of government wanted to leave, it's their fault for this mess?

Bigwoody said it best. You made your own alliance into someplace that none of you wanted to be. Each and every member of TSO who left from the MCXA disgusts me. You're cowards, immature, and unable to claim responsibility for your own actions.

Except Bigwoody forming TORN involved 3 key members, not 20-30. The damage to MXCA and the surrounding situation are far more substantial, though the Woody's point on the motive I believe to be completely understandable. However, boredom does not make it right.

[Petrovich4]

I for one am glad to hear this. Especially, after the certain elements I disliked about MCXA are now gone. I think MCXA will be much better off without those members, and will grow and prosper even further.

I would like to echo youwish's (and others) good wishes and hopes towards this invigorated MCXA. It is very good to hear that there is a renaissance and 'coming alive' within MCXA. GL guys and gals

[BamaBuc]

I cut out the relevant passage for you to read, logan

So... you were planning to bail on MCXA in a way that they wouldn't even know they were being bailed on? I'm not trying to troll, I don't know all the details, that's just what it sounds like you're saying.

Another thing I don't get is the attitude from some in TSO that the person/people who told MCXA about TSO were somehow wrong in doing so. Look, we can debate all day about whether or not splinter alliances are ethical or not, but I don't see how these people were wrong to tell their alliance that this was going on. Again, I don't know all the details, but that's what it sounds like you're saying... that whoever leaked TSO should not have told MCXA about it. Doesn't make sense to me.

-Bama

[youwish959]

Now if only soldier would get rid of certain elements I dislike then they would be much better off

And how would we be better off without those certain elements which you seem to wish to leave unnamed?

[Penguin]

From all I have seen over the past week, this one has been handled better than most (which I also expressed in my opening post). Was it handled perfectly? Clearly not, but it was handled much better than most.

I guess I just feel that 90% of the current government of a sanctioned alliance, resigning in the middle of their term of office, with a weeks notice, after logs were leaked to the membership that spoiled their plan to trickle out unnoticed, while finding protection in an ally of their original alliance, all to the loud public outcry of the Open World Forum and the embarrassment of both parties is more on the side of my definition of not well handled. I'm not trying to blame TSO or MCXA for the blunder, sometimes these things just happen for circumstances outside of their control. Nonetheless, I think it would be very difficult to argue that this was a smooth transition. I suppose that in the end we all hold ourselves and our leaders to different standards.

[theArrowheadian]

So... you were planning to bail on MCXA in a way that they wouldn't even know they were being bailed on? I'm not trying to troll, I don't know all the details, that's just what it sounds like you're saying.

Another thing I don't get is the attitude from some in TSO that the person/people who told MCXA about TSO were somehow wrong in doing so. Look, we can debate all day about whether or not splinter alliances are ethical or not, but I don't see how these people were wrong to tell their alliance that this was going on. Again, I don't know all the details, but that's what it sounds like you're saying... that whoever leaked TSO should not have told MCXA about it. Doesn't make sense to me.

-Bama

We have a winner, I wish I had a prize to give you.

[Blacky]

Also, someone noted that MCXA elections typically have 60 voters, of which 40 have left. That leaves 20 voters in an alliance of 677 members. Trouble at the MCXA? I should say so.

Meh, inactivity is the curse of all large alliances that's hardly their fault. Actually looking back in history the NAAC managed to maintain above average activity as a bigger alliance. Not a lot of other examples exist though.

Edit: For clarity there are better examples in recent times for example Polaris.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Blacky

[Chinatownbus]

Meh, inactivity is the curse of all large alliances that's hardly their fault. Actually looking back in history the NAAC managed to maintain above average activity as a bigger alliance. Not a lot of other examples exist though.

Sure. But that sort of inactivity is appalling.

[Freelancer]

Also, someone noted that MCXA elections typically have 60 voters, of which 40 have left. That leaves 20 voters in an alliance of 677 members. Trouble at the MCXA? I should say so.

I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh at this, many moons ago when I was at the helm of 50 nations all nuclear, I was called one of the biggest threats ever to hit the maroon team, I look at this and just wonder what's being said in those smoke filled rooms.

[SunnyInc]

Maybe you guys could've (still could) offered MCXA a month-long protectorate or something? That would've been interesting - certainly would demonstrate that the move isn't intended to just leave them hanging.

The TSO government and its members spent alot of time and effort making sure the transition was smooth for both parties.

[King Srqt]

So... you were planning to bail on MCXA in a way that they wouldn't even know they were being bailed on? I'm not trying to troll, I don't know all the details, that's just what it sounds like you're saying.

Another thing I don't get is the attitude from some in TSO that the person/people who told MCXA about TSO were somehow wrong in doing so. Look, we can debate all day about whether or not splinter alliances are ethical or not, but I don't see how these people were wrong to tell their alliance that this was going on. Again, I don't know all the details, but that's what it sounds like you're saying... that whoever leaked TSO should not have told MCXA about it. Doesn't make sense to me.

-Bama

Here I was happy to have no opinion and then I came across this. which made me read stuff I had previously skipped. I pretty much agree with bama here, it is bad enough to have some covert plan to have a mass exodus from your alliance but to somehow paint the person who notified the alliance of this plan as bad is just mind boggling.

And how would we be better off without those certain elements which you seem to wish to leave unnamed?

I think he was (not so) cleverly implying that he doesn't like you.

[twodivine]

One thing that hasn't really been touched on this, but has been hinted at a few times. So, I'll ask it in a little more clearer wording.

What makes what TSO has done with taking most of the alliances government and up and leave with 30 to 40 members any different than regular members that plan and plot to do the same thing?

Seriously if this was the standard rank and file member in any of the alliances out there, there would be charges of mass recruiting and the new alliance would be under attack.

But since these are alliance government buddies it appears to be "OK". That is so full of BS to treat this any other way then what it is. Treason and mass recruiting from within the alliance without government knowledge and approval. Oh wait, government approval? Oh that's themselves. Oh that is so much more right it makes the situation.

[Leftbehind]

Bigwoody said it best. You made your own alliance into someplace that none of you wanted to be. Each and every member of TSO who left from the MCXA disgusts me. You're cowards, immature, and unable to claim responsibility for your own actions.

You sir feel the same way as myself.