New environment effect

[King Srqt]

Sorry to disappoint you, but none of my suggestions is worked in "magically". Simple math proves that

- resources and trade setups who were at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage before (Lead, RadiationCleanup) have been strengthened

- 99% of all nations can equal out the penalties by making the correct decisions when it comes to Gov, Trades, Improvements

- strong nations are hurt MORE than weak nations, because the penalty is a PERCENTAGE so they will lose a higher part of their pop AND happiness if they do not fight the env penalties, in addition to that highlevel nations have more likely high amounts of nukes and with that an uranium import. They either need to maintain 5 borderwalls (costs pop) OR need to invest 100 millions into a NEO to get rid of these

- more skill (=making the right decisions at the right times) now increases your performance in the game.

The only ones who can be real angry are those who have actually collected tax while the WRONG formula was active, but that is absolutely and entirely out of my responsibility. I even agree that these should be refunded because it is actually possible that they lost significant amounts of cash.

Now please please please with a lot of sugarcoating on top: show me with cold, hard math how significantly this update has crippled your nation or anyone elses. And no "my income gone down" does not count - almost everyones income has gone down, except the one of people which have trade combos which were VERY VERY bad before (8BG for example) which have now been strengtened.

I absolutely agree that such changes should be announced some days in advance in the future, to prevent nations currently at war, bill locked or backcollecting being trapped by surprise. But that is not in my power to do nor my responsibility.

I am sorry that you do not like the change and that you are angry about it, but that does not change the fact that it will for sure make the game more interesting over time. Alone the now political aspect of GRL and the resource balances is worth it.

From my experience the admin is actually very vary about "big changes" and is open for logical argumentation. Give him good reasons why this update is horrible and he will actually listen to you. But going around complaing and repeating "how horrible" it is, without showing clear proof why (math) will not change anything.

lol syz math is not the same as enjoyment. If people enjoy the game less than th change is bad. No number of equations will ever change that.

[wakka wakka]

is the cybernations site down for anyone else? maybe admin is making more tweeks.

[zzzptm]

Not in bill lock, and I'm glad I jettisoned my 20 nukes a few weeks ago. Too much buck, not enough bang. They'll mess up your environment if you use them, and make everyone mad at you if you do. Junk 'em if you got cash to do so. When they can kill more than 150 infra, call me, I might buy some again.

BTW, I bet you young whippersnappers will listen next time an old hand tells you to have a big stack of cash to pay your bills with. It's not just a warchest, now... it's now also an unannouncedupdatechest.

Anyway, if there's a massive war this summer, we'd best all have a huge amount of cash on hand to ride out the nuclear winter.

And for those saying, "Hey, if you want to build your nation, there's peace mode..." Well, after day five, there's a MASSIVE drop in citizen income. I don't know the exact number, but it's large enough to warrant an adjective in all caps. Knocks taxes down by around 50%. Not a lotta building going on with only 25%-33% of one's former after-bill income.

Part of the frustration in the game stems from the fact that we're all waiting for the next big war. Rather than curse the darkness, I think I'll go light a candle... time to post a suggestion.

[Ephriam Grey]

Not in bill lock, and I'm glad I jettisoned my 20 nukes a few weeks ago. Too much buck, not enough bang. They'll mess up your environment if you use them, and make everyone mad at you if you do. Junk 'em if you got cash to do so. When they can kill more than 150 infra, call me, I might buy some again.

BTW, I bet you young whippersnappers will listen next time an old hand tells you to have a big stack of cash to pay your bills with. It's not just a warchest, now... it's now also an unannouncedupdatechest.

Anyway, if there's a massive war this summer, we'd best all have a huge amount of cash on hand to ride out the nuclear winter.

And for those saying, "Hey, if you want to build your nation, there's peace mode..." Well, after day five, there's a MASSIVE drop in citizen income. I don't know the exact number, but it's large enough to warrant an adjective in all caps. Knocks taxes down by around 50%. Not a lotta building going on with only 25%-33% of one's former after-bill income.

Part of the frustration in the game stems from the fact that we're all waiting for the next big war. Rather than curse the darkness, I think I'll go light a candle... time to post a suggestion.

National Peace/War Preference - The Peace/War Preference option allows you to specify whether or not you want to allow other nations to declare war on you and attack your nation or to play the game as a peaceful nation. Keeping your nation in peace mode for prolonged periods of time will damage your nations economy. New nations get a 7 day grace period when in peace mode to allow them to learn the game without receiving any economic penalties. If your nation is older than 7 days and you remain in peace mode for more than:

4 days = -3 population happiness

6 days = -5 population happiness

8 days = -6 population happiness

10 days = -7 population happiness

12 days = -8 population happiness

14 days = -9 population happiness

There is also an additional economic penalty on top of the population happiness penalty if your nation is in peace mode for more than 5 days. A nation in peace mode may not send foreign aid, however it will be allowed to continue to receive foreign aid. In order to exit peace mode nations are required to collect taxes on the day that they wish to change out of peace mode.

[CloudGT4]

Its easy for you Syzygy who probably lost 2mil income outta like 4billion.. And 100mil outta your war chest.. come on please..... that really hurts you to I am sure.. You large nations benefitted.. you dont see the loss to the other 90% so please save us you oh pitty my little 2million loss.. Its sickening.

My original post a few pages back, backed up by mrcybers post.. States the perfect argument. Why hasn't noone seen this yet.. The large nations are jolly and happy.. the other 90% are like.. wow.. i am stuck at mid range forever now...

There simply isn't enough good resources in the game for everyone to get the "perfect trade", you have probably a billion extra improv slots.. so its nothing for you to buy border walls.. However at my range.. i will have to drop 11 improvements to buy 5 boarderwalls.. seriously.. your suggestions for a fix aren't holding no water.. for the majority of the game.. The Middle Range..

We lost somewhere between 30 to 60 percent income.. you may.. maybe lost 4 to 5%.. so yeah thats equally fair.. sure.

[choop]

lol syz math is not the same as enjoyment. If people enjoy the game less than th change is bad. No number of equations will ever change that.

this.

gameplay > math

not everything in this simulator needs to be completely balanced or mathematically precise or even logical. when everything in CN is as formulaic and boring as everything in RL, why would i even bother to log in. i log in as an escape, as a distraction, not as an exercise to teach myself how to balance my checkbook.

[Gebiv]

I'm afraid this will hurt the tech dealing market. It can now become profitable to amass tech earlier.

[thedestro]

Losing some money does not affect gameplay. Just less money, that's it.

We all lost money, so what's the drastic change in balance?

[Oktavia]

This change makes it so you have to micromanage your nation smarter. Enviroment was just a mediocre thing in the game that needed a change.

Now you have to manage your soldier count, bonuses, goverments, buy land, and border walls to make gains from the losses.

I notice buying 1 border wall makes me only lose 150 citizens for 0.5 increased enviroment and 3 happiness. I should have lost 1080 citizens, but the gain is better than the loss.

[admin]

- strong nations are hurt MORE than weak nations, because the penalty is a PERCENTAGE so they will lose a higher part of their pop AND happiness if they do not fight the env penalties, in addition to that highlevel nations have more likely high amounts of nukes and with that an uranium import. They either need to maintain 5 borderwalls (costs pop) OR need to invest 100 millions into a NEO to get rid of these

I've quoted this because it seems some of you are hung up on a very basic principle of math. A percentage of a large number is always bigger than the percentage of a smaller number. Large nations were affected MORE by this update. Many large nations probably had the funds available to quickly adjust their nations but that does not negate the fact that their nation was hit harder by today's update than smaller and mid-sized nations.

This update is hours old and I doubt any of you have done any real math about it. Give everyone some time to adjust before drawing your conculsions and conspiracy theories.

[Syrik]

According to the updates, there's no change in the Income formula itself, just the factors that make up the income formula (Happiness and Environment).

However, for some reason my income dropped WAY below what it used to be. I used to have a Gross Income of about $311 a day. Now with the best environment (2.09) and as much happiness as I can possibly gather (70.23, note that I've never been above 70 happiness before) my income dropped to $221.00.

I'm just wondering if anyone here can look at my nation and tell me where the Income Drop comes from. I've obviously missed something.

[Syzygy]

Its easy for you Syzygy who probably lost 2mil income outta like 4billion.. And 100mil outta your war chest.. come on please..... that really hurts you to I am sure.. You large nations benefitted.. you dont see the loss to the other 90% so please save us you oh pitty my little 2million loss.. Its sickening.

My original post a few pages back, backed up by mrcybers post.. States the perfect argument. Why hasn't noone seen this yet.. The large nations are jolly and happy.. the other 90% are like.. wow.. i am stuck at mid range forever now...

There simply isn't enough good resources in the game for everyone to get the "perfect trade", you have probably a billion extra improv slots.. so its nothing for you to buy border walls.. However at my range.. i will have to drop 11 improvements to buy 5 boarderwalls.. seriously.. your suggestions for a fix aren't holding no water.. for the majority of the game.. The Middle Range..

We lost somewhere between 30 to 60 percent income.. you may.. maybe lost 4 to 5%.. so yeah thats equally fair.. sure.

I made 12 Million clear profit per day before.

I lost ~10,000 citizens while my income was stable around $133 tax per citizen. This makes 1.33M loss of clear income per day, which equals 11.1% of my income.

And thad AFTER I invested 100Million for a NEO, else the effect had been even worse.

Now prove your point of having lost 30-60% income please, since that claim is not backed up by any math (at least not to my knowledge). With 5 Borderwalls you can completely negate the env-penalties, while the +10happiness you gain from them roughly equal out the -10% citizens for midtier nations (not always, but its close). If you have not enough free improvement slots for these, raze military improvements while collecting tax, while fighting no one should have borderwalls anyway because they reduce your troop size and tank count.

So, either you link me to a nation which has done the right decisions and STILL suffers ~30-60% income penalty, or please STOP making statements which are simply WRONG.

I am not sure if a -60% income penalty is even POSSIBLE from this update.

[Gebiv]

This doesn't favor my trade set much, but at least others got hit too.

[Syrik]

So, either you link me to a nation which has done the right decisions and STILL suffers ~30-60% income penalty, or please STOP making statements which are simply WRONG.

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=62677

Lost 29% income. 29 is close to 30.

[acrux]

cool first day and i have a warn level.. guess you cant say hell and admin in the same line..

[CloudGT4]

I made 12 Million clear profit per day before.

I lost ~10,000 citizens while my income was stable around $133 tax per citizen. This makes 1.33M loss of clear income per day, which equals 11.1% of my income.

And thad AFTER I invested 100Million for a NEO, else the effect had been even worse.

Now prove your point of having lost 30-60% income please, since that claim is not backed up by any math (at least not to my knowledge). With 5 Borderwalls you can completely negate the env-penalties, while the +10happiness you gain from them roughly equal out the -10% citizens for midtier nations (not always, but its close). If you have not enough free improvement slots for these, raze military improvements while collecting tax, while fighting no one should have borderwalls anyway because they reduce your troop size and tank count.

So, either you link me to a nation which has done the right decisions and STILL suffers ~30-60% income penalty, or please STOP making statements which are simply WRONG.

I am not sure if a -60% income penalty is even POSSIBLE from this update.

Okay.. I lost 3k citizens. So, i now need to drop 3 improvements.. adding the boarder walls i have to to drop 5 improvements to add the boarder walls, which in turn take more citizens, which means i have to drop more improvements to gain the walls.. where is the benefit in that? To make my 4.09 environment a little lower to make a few extra dollars per citizens that i have left? No. sorry boarderwalls are not the answer.. And of course your almighty brains missed the point.. that there isn't enough nations for everyone to have a perfect trade set.. Your 11% income loss isn't noticable to the 3 million I lost.. And, the rest of the midrange nations.. So again almighty one sitting on top with hundreds of millions, doesn't realize the effect on the nations that make the game.. the middle half.. It doesn't hurt the top range at all. so its great for you.. again.. let me baww over you 1.3million loss..

[Syrik]

But now adding borderwalls hardly drops your citizen count. The -1 environment ~Almost makes up for the 2% loss in people, so you probably won't drop any more improvement slots after that. I'm positive there is a way around all this and admin did all the calculations ahead of time, it's now up to us to figure it out rather than whine.

[V The King]

I must've lost roughly 5K citizens, and my collections are about a million bucks smaller. Not too bad when one can afford border walls.

A comment on the change overall, I think some warning should've been given as it was a major modification to the game, and it caught many people with their pants down.

Also, it hurts nations around 4-6K infra with nukes quite a bit, as most of them will be compelled to sacrifice some improvement for border walls, while bigger nations will continue to grow almost as fast as before.

[Lord Sharpe]

Okay.. I lost 3k citizens. So, i now need to drop 3 improvements.. adding the boarder walls i have to to drop 5 improvements to add the boarder walls, which in turn take more citizens, which means i have to drop more improvements to gain the walls.. where is the benefit in that? To make my 4.09 environment a little lower to make a few extra dollars per citizens that i have left? No. sorry boarderwalls are not the answer.. And of course your almighty brains missed the point.. that there isn't enough nations for everyone to have a perfect trade set.. Your 11% income loss isn't noticable to the 3 million I lost.. And, the rest of the midrange nations.. So again almighty one sitting on top with hundreds of millions, doesn't realize the effect on the nations that make the game.. the middle half.. It doesn't hurt the top range at all. so its great for you.. again.. let me baww over you 1.3million loss..

You also are on full war improvements. Fix that, it won't be nearly as bad.

[diskord]

Okay.. I lost 3k citizens. So, i now need to drop 3 improvements.. adding the boarder walls i have to to drop 5 improvements to add the boarder walls, which in turn take more citizens, which means i have to drop more improvements to gain the walls.. where is the benefit in that? To make my 4.09 environment a little lower to make a few extra dollars per citizens that i have left? No. sorry boarderwalls are not the answer.. And of course your almighty brains missed the point.. that there isn't enough nations for everyone to have a perfect trade set.. Your 11% income loss isn't noticable to the 3 million I lost.. And, the rest of the midrange nations.. So again almighty one sitting on top with hundreds of millions, doesn't realize the effect on the nations that make the game.. the middle half.. It doesn't hurt the top range at all. so its great for you.. again.. let me baww over you 1.3million loss..

Lets play "spot the kids that failed math class" in this thread...

It's a fun game for us "almighty brains" sitting on top of piles of cash.

Now I just need to cackle with glee and the image is complete.

Edit to add: The issue is you keep whining about my nation this, and my nation that, instead of the overall game play of the game. Listen, I was the one who SUGGESTED the NS Tech adjustment, and yet I was probably hit harder than anyone by it. I was ranked around 50th at the time, but dropped all the way down 200th, thats 400% drop in the rankings because of a change I SUGGESTED. But it was the right change that improved the game. Likewise this change DOES effect those up at top more, but it seems to me those at the top seem more content with seeing the game improve and less concerned about OH MY BITS crying.

Look, I have worked with Syzygy on multiple different projects, and the fact that you would call in his character or motivation on the changes being ANYTHING other than game play improvement is just ludicrous.

Get over yourself, read the thread, dump some improvements, buy some border walls and get on growing your nation. You aren't hurt as bad as you think you are, you have just refused to listen to everyone giving you the answer on how to "fix" your problem, because the solution they are telling you is something other than "roll back the changes so I don't have to think."

Edited May 19, 2008 by diskord

[Terra Extraneus]

I lost $500,000.00 , It isn't that much even with my not so ideal trade set. But of course, I would be happier if I hadn't lost it. Though I would have preferred to lose money because of war, not because a change in the system. So it goes.

[BamaBuc]

The new environment is like having actual geography. If it had been here at the start, it would have been amazing. But when you add it in at this stage, it's just a pain. I've seen a million people suggest having real geography in CN. That would be cool to have, but at this point, it would be terrible to add. This is the same, albeit on a smaller scale.

-Bama

[Aeternos Astramora]

I've quoted this because it seems some of you are hung up on a very basic principle of math. A percentage of a large number is always bigger than the percentage of a smaller number. Large nations were affected MORE by this update. Many large nations probably had the funds available to quickly adjust their nations but that does not negate the fact that their nation was hit harder by today's update than smaller and mid-sized nations.

This update is hours old and I doubt any of you have done any real math about it. Give everyone some time to adjust before drawing your conculsions and conspiracy theories.

Speaking of math

Environment | Border walls | Population | Happiness | % increase of population per environment point (taking into account the -2% population from a border wall) | Happiness increase (not including the +2 from the border walls) |

5.09 | 0 | 106,129 | 62.44 | --------- | ------- |

4.09 | 1 | 105,859 | 65.03 | +1.78% | +0.59 |

3.09 | 2 | 105,543 | 67.66 | +1.81% | +0.63 |

2.09 | 3 | 105,182 | 70.33 | +1.84% | +0.67 |

Now for a nuke change:

Starting environment: 5.09.

20 nukes to 19.

New environment: 4.99.

Result: +1 nuke = -0.1 environment.

That -0.1 environment:

Environment | Population | Happiness | % increase of population per environment point (so I multiplied the value by 10) | Happiness increase per happiness point (so I multiplied by 10 |

5.09 | 106,129 | 62.44 | --------- | ----- |

4.99 | 106,323 | 62.50 | +1.83% | +0.6 |

Edited May 19, 2008 by Aeternos Astramora

[Syzygy]

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=62677

Lost 29% income. 29 is close to 30.

- change gov

- import water instead of pigs (-3.5%pop, +4.5hap, -1env penalty)

- alternative: gold = you lose 3.5%pop but gain +2hap (microchips) +3$income (gold), -1env penalty (rad cleanup), GRL reduced by 50%

magically this 29% will turn into the same 10-15% like it was for me or most others.

In addition to that the 5 borderwalls you have should completely cancel out the bad env effects AND the +2hap they provide are close to equal out the -2%pop at your level. It is hard to believe that your income has dropped by 29% at all.

[Junkalunka]

I initially greatly disliked the changes made to the game... but as I see arguments made I can definitely see certain benefits to the game that result from them.

:jihad: