New environment effect

[Viluin]

Again, 20 nukes your a large nation. The argument is the lower nations got hit harder then maybe expected, and large nations defending this to the teeth don't see the overall impact.. Nor, I suppose they will totally unless someone drastically sold off all nukes, infra, and wonders that the large nations enjoy, and come down below the 5k range. Which wont happen.. So, I suppose the overall idea was good, the impact is bad. So instead of everyone fighting and flaming, maybe we all need to think up how to improve this.

and yes i know i am guilty of initally fighting and flaming, but after actually listening to some of the advice it is slightly workable.. now it just needs imporvied.

As far as I know even smaller nations can have a perfect environment, since they don't have nukes. All that's required is a decent trade set and a small amount of tech. Possibly some border walls.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Viluin

[uaciaut]

I honestly do not see a problem with the changes that were made yesterday. I don't understand how some of you can sit at 6-7 environment. I import oil and uranium, and I have 20 nukes. My environment is still 1 + GRL.

My daily income is practically the same as before.

Note that i don't generally stay on BW's, i only build them when i collect, mostly because i want to be fully prepared militarily and thus have the maximum citizen count i can have so i can buy as many tanks/soldiers as i can.

Border Walls do increase my collection ammount by a bit (all 5 do it by around 1 million) but they decrease my citizen ammount still.

My main concern with this is balancing resources so they all have a level of atractiveness and "fit in" one set or another.

I got a PM today from one of my tech sellers who was at around 1k infra telling me he wants to reroll because no one wants to trade with him since he has uranium. I mean that's completely wrong imho

Edited May 20, 2008 by uaciaut

[fixxx]

good update only thing I would suggest is lowering the infra needed for a NEO to 11k or 10k, I'm at 6540 infra now, to get to 13k infra would mean an investment of about 1.8 billion, it would take me another year to get there which is crazy

[titodafarmer]

i actually was not hurt(badly) by this. My environment was full except for a little half star, because someone decided to launch some nooks. I lost about 900 people, out of my 47,900some. I do no support this though. This makes you focus more on keeping your envir happy, then running your country. Then again, thats what america is doing also....go figure it is more like real life.

Edited May 20, 2008 by titodafarmer

[The fox]

I must agree with most of the people when I say that this is a bad update. I have lost atleast 200 in pop from this, Most probably more. I am not too sure about my happiness altho I can only suspect it has also taken a major hit, Which sucks. As I am currently saving up for a Wonder, I am not sure if this update will put me into bill-lock, If it does, Then it would suck even more. Not saying that this update should be completely removed, Perhaps add something to counter-balance the effects of it? Perhaps more improvements/wonders to help a nations enviroment.

[Kielmog]

Good update. [/super obvious sarcasm]

Here's a preview for the next update:

You know how tech used to be good for the government? Now it's bad. So bad. Every 100 tech= -$2000.00 to your income. Phew. Only the larger nations survive.

Wait, wait, I got it. Every infra you buy causes a leprechaun to leap from your game and kick you in the nads. Unless if you have more than 14,000 infra.

No, wait. Buying a nuke causes you to have to listen to Goldmember say, "Can I paint his yoo-hoo GOLLLDDD?" 50 times if your NS is less than 100k.

All without any warning. I love CN, but this update is THE worst idea ever. Watergate, the Bay of Pigs, the Vietnam War, THESE were better ideas than this update. Ouch, way to screw up big time.

[Bob Janova]

Making environment have an effect is a good idea. However, the way it was done is not:

- Such a drastic change (even after the error correction) should come with some advance warning

- The 'best' resource set (Fast Food, Beer and Construction) has been given a boost, whereas the alternative set (Fine Jewellery, Affluent Population and Steel) has been hurt. This undoes a very good balancing change made recently.

- Nations with Coal, Oil or (especially) Uranium are really hurt a lot, as their resources won't be wanted.

I suggest:

- Reducing the environment effects of importing Coal, Oil and Uranium to 1/5 or 1/10 of a point, bringing them back down to the level they were previously.

- Reducing the minimum infrastructure of the NEO

- Adding an effect of land (or infra/land², i.e. building density), making land more useful.

- Removing the effect of nukes. You already pay in environment points for the government position and for importing uranium, and it is unrealistic that owning nukes would damage the environment.

[energizer]

Is the admin gunna change the changes hes made at all? Cause i WAS at 72/citizen income. Im now sitting at 45/citizen income... the crap??

[LJ Scott]

I'd say let land decrease environment

1000 land = -0.2 environment

That suggestion is horrible.

[Kielmog]

That suggestion is horrible.

So was this one but it got approved.

[Terra Extraneus]

It's odd to see how many people actually get involved in discussions after something is implemented but aren't there to fight it when the suggestion is at its infancy.

[Mikhail Moldavi]

Amazing.

For the next update I would like to suggest; If globally enough nukes are launched the game resets, and no one will be able to remake a new nation for 30 years because of nuclear winter.

/

Edited May 20, 2008 by Mikhail Moldavi

[LJ Scott]

So was this one but it got approved.

This one was pretty across the board tho.

[LJ Scott]

It's odd to see how many people actually get involved in discussions after something is implemented but aren't there to fight it when the suggestion is at its infancy.

Well in all fairness no one really had a chance to have any input on this one

But yeah happens all the time.

Next up hopefully nukes

[Kielmog]

This one was pretty across the board tho.

Someone's in denial. This only truly affects up-and-coming nations who had, as of previous days, been playing this game with a semblance of competence. Now the resources are ridiculously unbalanced and wars/conflicts that were currently happening are now thrown into chaos.

Bad form: No warning.

Bad form: Little time for deliberation.

Bad form: Taking the opinion of someone who will be unaffected.

Bad form: Lack of careful planning.

Bad form: The current ignoring of the outcry by many members of CN that do not have 100k NS.

Good form: Increase in discussion. That is all.

[Ski11585]

Well in all fairness no one really had a chance to have any input on this one

But yeah happens all the time.

Next up hopefully nukes

My main concern is what this update will do for the balance between the rich and poor. YES, the big nations have been playing longer, etc, etc. But this seems to further solidify their position as top nations.

If something was done to increase damages of nukes, or create a new, more powerful weapon, then I would certainly be fine with this current update.

[LJ Scott]

Someone's in denial. This only truly affects up-and-coming nations who had, as of previous days, been playing this game with a semblance of competence. Now the resources are ridiculously unbalanced and wars/conflicts that were currently happening are now thrown into chaos.

Bad form: No warning.

Bad form: Little time for deliberation.

Bad form: Taking the opinion of someone who will be unaffected.

Bad form: Lack of careful planning.

Bad form: The current ignoring of the outcry by many members of CN that do not have 100k NS.

Good form: Increase in discussion. That is all.

Meh so what I lost 50% of my previous collections thanks to 4K lost citizens etc etc. I never moaned about it.

Also when is there ever warning? It's a beta!

The small deliberation time only shows it was something admin had been thinking about doing himself.

Most suggestions are made by long running players. Fair enough Syz only lost a few $m in collections probably, but thats a result of how he chose to go about building his nation.

How do you know there was no planning?

Admin stated that he knew it would be unpopular, much like the NS calc. changes, but that he'd stick by it to give enviroment some meaning.

Instead of people moaning about something thats not going to be altered, head on over to the discussion forum and suggest something to help combat the change, e.g. new improvements/wonders, or changes to current ones, or resource changes etc etc.

Also "OH NOES MAH PIXELS CHANGED FRM 43,678 TO 37,993 FOR MA CITIZENS!!!1!!1 WORST SUGGESTION EVA!" sadly doesn't contribute to discussion.

[LJ Scott]

My main concern is what this update will do for the balance between the rich and poor. YES, the big nations have been playing longer, etc, etc. But this seems to further solidify their position as top nations.

If something was done to increase damages of nukes, or create a new, more powerful weapon, then I would certainly be fine with this current update.

There is currently a discussion on Reworking Nuclear Weapons to increase the damage they cause. Currently at 7 pages of discussion.

Also there's one on New Missiles, again currently on 7 pages of discussion.

[Un4Gvn1]

From the start I knew this would not be a popular update and I expect to see many threads like this and many PM complaints. My response... bring it on. Environment was a feature that had a lot of potential in the game and now that potential is better realized with this update.

While I like the environment having a real impact now, it would have been great to have a warning ahead of time so nations could collect taxes prior to the huge changes. If a nation was saving for several days, this change has devastated the income.

Edit: By the way, I lost 10K population, am a large nation, and was hurt badly.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Peggy_Sue

[Kielmog]

I understand that this is a beta, which is why the suggestions of the MAJORITY of the members, no matter how poorly worded or inarticulately written, should take precedence over the ramblings and insipid ideas of one very large nation.

The admins tried something, nobody likes it except for those that are unaffected by it, and therefore it should be removed. Simple as that. The NS calculations affected everyone equally and while annoying, proportionally affected each nation. That was fair and balanced... to quote a horrible news source. This is not.

I've already submitted a petition asking for a reversal of this change until a more moderate and better system of adding impact to the environment can be thought up. Hopefully, the topic is approved. I URGE EVERYONE who is dissatisfied with this most recent of game changes to sign it if it gets approved.

Also "OH NOES MAH PIXELS CHANGED FRM 43,678 TO 37,993 FOR MA CITIZENS!!!1!!1 WORST SUGGESTION EVA!" sadly doesn't contribute to discussion.

Edit: fixed a typo or two. *sigh*

While not articulate or eloquent, it is an opinion, and when large numbers of people say it, it must be accounted for. Suffice it to say, the environment having little to no impact should be in place over this ridiculous overshoot that was created.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Kielmog

[acrux]

Maybe updates like this a msg should go out to all users, and not have me hunting down an update log.

Wow they followed through on this today.. makes me a little happier.

[LJ Scott]

Well I'm pretty satisfied with this update, I was even before he lowered the effect after the accidental x10 extra in the formula.

[Benjamin Smythe]

I'm not a top nation... roughly top 2%... and I haven't been hit hard at all, like I said before I've lost like 100k per collection. I'm basically shrugging my shoulders at this one. Not supporting, not hating. I really just don't care. Change happens, yes, and if implemented slowly, humans don't resist. But you can't have your cake and eat it.

Business as usual. And personally, I think everyone should just take a chill pill because people can't control their words. Shouldn't have really gotten to that stage in the first place, but meh. Wishful thinking.

[King Aldarich]

well I only lost 100k income overall.

[Statalyzer]

I love all the people arguing for "This isn't realistic" in a game where nuclear missiles fly across the globe daily, wars are cheap and easy if you pick your targets well since there's no cost to deploy troops all over the world, the best way for 3rd world countries to make money is selling technology to high-tech nations, and where ships are magically impossible to build.

I also love how people complain instead of just changing their strategy from the tried-and-true cookie cutter formula that is basically "buy infra buy infra buy infra." Now that the 10x bug is fixed, this shouldn't be a problem at all, just a good change that adds variety - if you have a deficit, then get more tech, sell some infra, get some land, get rid of some soldiers, sell off some nukes (I do agree that it's stupid that nuke sitting in a silo is an environment penalty though), change your government, change your trades - the ones who can adapt will survive, the ones who only know one set way to play won't. The changes weren't perfectly convenient for me either - I have a low population density and water as a resource and I still lost about 8% of my population, but all this whining is ridiculous.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Statalyzer