tehol Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 We have waited many years in anticipatory tension. Silently. Internally. We each chant "Cash Rules Everything Around Me". Our prayers have been answered! Praise be to Almighty Admin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 January 11, 2024. The first aid package of over $9m in the history of cyber nations. One for the history books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMustaine Posted January 12 Report Share Posted January 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 yikes. well that's it, game over everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: yikes. well that's it, game over everyone. Been thinking about this, unlimited foreign aid will break the game completely. I'm going to keep foreign aid on for the remainder of this round, but limit it to 50,000,000 cash and 2,500 tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 congrats to everyone who asked for this; enjoy it while it lasts because you've just demonstrated why you can't have nice things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentMK Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 21 minutes ago, admin said: Been thinking about this, unlimited foreign aid will break the game completely. I'm going to keep foreign aid on for the remainder of this round, but limit it to 50,000,000 cash and 2,500 tech. Like per aid offer? Or like you can only send or receive 50m like ever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 7 minutes ago, AgentMK said: Like per aid offer? Or like you can only send or receive 50m like ever? Per aid offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 It''s still quite a lot to be able to send but it does mean the rest of us can strip our nations of resource to send upwards for a few people to catch up. What is there stopping people re-rolling a nation mid-round to get 2000 infra and a FAC to send the rest of their start up cash to the fighter of their choice? Welcome to the Planet Steve Oligarchy Showdown! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobwebbyarc6 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 7 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: congrats to everyone who asked for this; enjoy it while it lasts because you've just demonstrated why you can't have nice things. It has not been demonstrated because the results are still unknown. An entire round would be required to see the legitimate result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 4 minutes ago, cobwebbyarc6 said: It has not been demonstrated because the results are still unknown. An entire round would be required to see the legitimate result. one result is known and it's uncapped aid might fry the planet and the other planet we live on if a large enough amount of something was sent, the forces of entropy are not to be taken llightly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tehol Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 8 hours ago, admin said: Been thinking about this, unlimited foreign aid will break the game completely. I'm going to keep foreign aid on for the remainder of this round, but limit it to 50,000,000 cash and 2,500 tech. Thank you for the change in any event this round. May I ask to confirm if you think it breaks gameplay or if it risks causing server issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tehol Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: one result is known and it's uncapped aid might fry the planet and the other planet we live on if a large enough amount of something was sent, the forces of entropy are not to be taken llightly! I agree that to truly attempt the experiment uncapped is needed. We havent yet hit infra levels where infra becomes super expensive. Nor have we yet built up tech reserves. I am convinced that the increasing costs of things naturally causes diminishing returns to unlimited aid. iI agree the game strategy is significantly shifted (and likely evolving) but that was kinda the point edit: for example, the strategy i attempted with firingline totally fails if FL or Warden absconded with my cash Edited January 13 by tehol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 7 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: congrats to everyone who asked for this; enjoy it while it lasts because you've just demonstrated why you can't have nice things. You know what breaks the game even more? When you can just turtle during wars, do a quick trade swap, and rebuild completely. As if letting your nation get ravaged and then jumping to your largest-ever size the next day makes any sense. That's what OP's been doing for quite some time now, and it's functionally impossible to counter. We sent two nations 2k tech. Something OP could replicate in 5 minutes. And that breaks the game? Edited January 13 by firingline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerschbs Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 10 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: yikes. well that's it, game over everyone. the hyperbole is strong with this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerschbs Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 37 minutes ago, firingline said: You know what breaks the game even more? When you can just turtle during wars, do a quick trade swap, and rebuild completely. As if letting your nation get ravaged and then jumping to your largest-ever size the next day makes any sense. That's what OP's been doing for quite some time now, and it's functionally impossible to counter. We sent two nations 2k tech. Something OP could replicate in 5 minutes. And that breaks the game? Indeed. It kinda makes the war function pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 2 hours ago, tehol said: Thank you for the change in any event this round. May I ask to confirm if you think it breaks gameplay or if it risks causing server issues? I doubt it's a server issue because there's no change to how many slots would be sent or increase to server traffic, just larger integers of money/tech being sent. It's that which I think is the problem admin realised. If you read the Info Index with all the equations that determine all the things about our nations, you might get an idea of how uncapped integers of certain resources being sent in a lump sum to someone might screw with them and they are the governing mechanics of everything about building your nation and everyone elses. It may also be the case that the root code of the game has a cap itself on the highest possible integer of something someone can have at a given time. If that cap is exceeded the number doesn't keep getting larger, it goes back to zero or a negative number. Can you imagine sending a huge amount of something to find out that you just sent someone negative tech and the implications of that? 2 hours ago, firingline said: You know what breaks the game even more? When you can just turtle during wars, do a quick trade swap, and rebuild completely. As if letting your nation get ravaged and then jumping to your largest-ever size the next day makes any sense. That's what OP's been doing for quite some time now, and it's functionally impossible to counter. We sent two nations 2k tech. Something OP could replicate in 5 minutes. And that breaks the game? You didn't break the game you silly goose; you just revealed to admin something that would've been apparent if removing the aid cap was debugged before implementation, to make sure it didn't effect the core mechanics and equations that determine various elements of the game itself. Adding the foreign aid mechanic with a larger cap than SE has could also make it either a lot easier to turtle if you could send all your tech away and just get it back later but it could also be a good workaround to deal with people turtling by sending tech to whoever has the nukes to rip the shell off the turtle's back! There are ways around it all if you experiment with this new-fangled irrigation system we have with far greater capacity than the other planet does. Sure there's a cap now but it's still a good chunk of stuff you can fling around where it might be needed for a fight. Essentially you helped debug a part of the game that you and others asked to be implemented and revealed it couldn't safely be left uncapped, not because what you did caused an immediate issue but it revealed the potential for something which definitely would be. We do still have the ability to send large amounts of aid though and you all wisely co-ordinated the most effective way of utilising that capless aid potential first so I'm unsure why you seem irritated- or why you're ranting at me about OP like I care? They're just turtles, crack off the shell with a suped up nuke and eat the delicious meats inside! If you thought being able to send aid would help you deal with the turtles then that remains an option, you just can't crank it to 11 because the mathematics behind everything in the game won't allow 11 it'd give you 0 or less. 1 hour ago, kerschbs said: the hyperbole is strong with this one. A for effort on the co-ordination with this. Ideal day to optimise the amount of money and tech you could acquire before the shooting really started. F for implentation. You seem to have wasted your slots and opportunity experimenting with uncapped aid by simply flinging it back and forth. Edited January 14 by Johnny Apocalypse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 13 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: What is there stopping people re-rolling a nation mid-round to get 2000 infra and a FAC to send the rest of their start up cash to the fighter of their choice? Re-rolling is temporarily disabled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerschbs Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) Those weren’t re-rolls and having new nations join and send aid wasn’t against the rules, that’s not really fair. I have three nations who want to join and play for the rest of the round, can you open it back up and add a limit of like seven days before people can send aid? edit: so that does mean no more nations can join this round? Edited January 14 by kerschbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 5 hours ago, Johnny Apocalypse said: Essentially you helped debug a part of the game that you and others asked to be implemented and revealed it couldn't safely be left uncapped, not because what you did caused an immediate issue but it revealed the potential for something which definitely would be. What are you going on about? We sent 2,500 tech to one nation using a bunch of other nations. Roughly the equivalent of 4-5 people sending 500 tech each to a specific nation. How was that not the intent of unlimited aid? How is it a bug or breaking the game in any way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, kerschbs said: Those weren’t re-rolls and having new nations join and send aid wasn’t against the rules, that’s not really fair. I have three nations who want to join and play for the rest of the round, can you open it back up and add a limit of like seven days before people can send aid? edit: so that does mean no more nations can join this round? Who knows. Admin seems to be retroactively changing rules on the fly here with no explanation. Apparently you can't have a non-serious player join to send a lump sum of tech. You can, however, have a nonserious player park on resources to give your players access to trade combos without dealing with any of the negative consequences of actually holding those resources. Even if the trade bonuses are financially more rewarding to your alliance than the lump sum of tech. ALSO, it's totally not OK to send unlimited aid even if the mechanics allow it. It IS, however, OK to take advantage of the infra rebuild mechanics to "turtle-nuke", swap with those 'fake players' holding certain resources, and immediately buy back to a higher NS, physically blocking your opponent from effectively fighting your nation. Basically - it's OK to take advantage of mechanics in a way that is difficult to compete with if you're OP. But if you're AW, the rules need to be retroactively changed. You know, to ensure things are competitive! Edited January 14 by firingline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 3 minutes ago, firingline said: What are you going on about? We sent 2,500 tech to one nation using a bunch of other nations. Roughly the equivalent of 4-5 people sending 500 tech each to a specific nation. How was that not the intent of unlimited aid? How is it a bug or breaking the game in any way? An example of what I'm going on about which might be related to why the cap needed to be put on would be this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_overflow Brief summary for you as well. Quote In programming and information security, a buffer overflow or buffer overrun is an anomaly whereby a program writes data to a buffer beyond the buffer's allocated memory, overwriting adjacent memory location [...] Exploiting the behavior of a buffer overflow is a well-known security exploit. On many systems, the memory layout of a program, or the system as a whole, is well defined. By sending in data designed to cause a buffer overflow, it is possible to write into areas known to hold executable code and replace it with malicious code, or to selectively overwrite data pertaining to the program's state, therefore causing behavior that was not intended by the original programmer. To be crystal clear with you here; I am not in any way saying that anyone was doing anything along the lines of trying to exploit the coding (you especially as you don't know what I'm talking about, so how would you know what to even do to exploit it in the first place) However; if there was an instance where a large enough sequence was entered into area you type out how much aid you want to send that exceeded the buffer- or let's call it "the cap" of the memory in the program's code? The example above is what might happen, that may be why there is a need for a secondary cap on the front-end/player interface to prevent a buffer overflow disrupting things across the game. I'm no expert on this kinda thing, just have a bit of rudimentary knowledge that I've picked up from other programmers and other computer magicians over the years. I could be way off and the need for a cap is for some other reason. What I'm trying to communicate to you by pointing this one example out is this: The aid cap was not added to spite you, it was done for the stability of the very game you enjoy playing. But yes, I'm sure you feel it isn't fair that you can't send as much aid as you want anymore, you asked for uncapped aid which has been taken away. Admin should remove the cap for you again, buffer overflows be damned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firingline Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 The first reason given was that it would break the fairness of the game. Only later did admin claim it would somehow break the game. Which is weird, because transactions totaling billions of dollars regularly hit the database. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrinkledStraw Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 24 minutes ago, firingline said: The first reason given was that it would break the fairness of the game. Only later did admin claim it would somehow break the game. Which is weird, because transactions totaling billions of dollars regularly hit the database. It’s all made up. Wondering when I can join TE. I have a great nation name ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Apocalypse Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 (edited) 32 minutes ago, firingline said: The first reason given was that it would break the fairness of the game. Only later did admin claim it would somehow break the game. Which is weird, because transactions totaling billions of dollars regularly hit the database. Both are capable of being the case tbh. First of all; Al posted a thread in Report a Bug two days prior to this thread being made about only being able to send 100 tech to another nation, which is how it is in SE. From this it would seem that the code for sending aid in SE was copied to TE and left unchanged, this explains why Al ran into an aid cap that mirrored SE. This would also mean that an aid cap has been in place since the beginning, only when someone tried to send it nearly two weeks into the round did it get found. Meaning the cap not only got hastily removed from the copy of SE code- it also hadn't been tested at all prior to the round to make sure it wasn't going to be giving any given nation too much of an upper-hand; or tested to make sure that it wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the actual code of the game in ways that would be far worse than just giving the people who utilised it first the upper-hand too freely. Thats why even a re-issue of a game with slight tweaks will always be debugged before it goes on sale. These things need testing and finding where the breaking points might be, then ensuring that breaking point isn't something that can be reached before you hand it over to the user. Otherwise the user is going to be pretty angry with a broken product eventually. This is especially true when it comes to games we play online. What do we need to do to play most online games? Make an account. What does that need? Your email address and a password and you get the picture. If there's a vulnerability in the code of the game? That data we use to sign up is also potentially vulnerable if the new elements of the game code are not thoroughly debugged to ensure that not only the game architecture is stable but that user details which are given to make accounts are secure from a wouldbe hackerman. As to the nature of the code vulnerability? I don't know what it is exactly and I doubt admin is going to declare what it was in case any passerby gets any funny ideas. Yes billions of dollars are shifted daily, that's already been coded and accounted for happening it's why it hasn't been a concern. Has 10000 tech ever been moved in one go before? Make that 10000.99 to be precise. What if it was the case that a 7-digit input on the Tech you send our via foreign aid would've been all it took to sink everything? Knowing us left unchecked, we'd probably have made a game of how big we could make a ball of aid before the end of the round as a little side-game to have fun with while totally unaware of the underlying issue. We already have this thread celebrating the largest amount of money sent in history, what would have stopped us pushing it further for seemingly harmlesss laugh? I went from thinking "Jesus that's a bit excessive, so whoever does that first wins then?" but I'm more concerned about the fact this was discovered to be a risk so late without any testing being done, not about if it's fair on other players at this point. Edited January 14 by Johnny Apocalypse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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