yung flow Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 With fake wars? Oh wait... You might as well called yours fake :p. main goal was obviously to keep RE away from the flags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bombuator Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 You might as well called yours fake :P. main goal was obviously to keep RE away from the flags. Because that was our last war, which you obviously inferred with the statement "bunch of micros". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartfw Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 You might as well called yours fake :P. main goal was obviously to keep RE away from the flags. I'm pretty content comparing our wars to your fake skirmish. I'm still not sure why everything you say is wrong, you would think eventually the odds would catch up with you just by chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernsters Posted May 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'm starting to like War Doves because they're not complaining, seems like they enjoy a good 'ol fashioned war :popcorn: Then again, maybe they're not complaining because they have lots of others doing it for them. Seeing some good counters so far, can't wait until tonight :ehm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwise Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) I'm starting to like War Doves because they're not complaining, seems like they enjoy a good 'ol fashioned war :popcorn: Then again, maybe they're not complaining because they have lots of others doing it for them. Seeing some good counters so far, can't wait until tonight :ehm: From my nation bio: Personal message provided on 4/9/2014: Everything. Must. Burn. ^That includes me. :nuke: Edited May 18, 2014 by Samwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul711 Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'm starting to like War Doves because they're not complaining, seems like they enjoy a good 'ol fashioned war :popcorn: Then again, maybe they're not complaining because they have lots of others doing it for them. Seeing some good counters so far, can't wait until tonight :ehm: when was the last legit war your bunch ever declared.... go on I'll wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvon Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 So where did you think that this war was actually fair? I know, right? They should have brought someone else along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwise Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 I know, right? They should have brought someone else along. ROFL Say what you want about War Doves, but we provide quality entertainment for all ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingervites Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 I don't know what all the fuss is about. Clearly an updeclare. Go get 'em! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernsters Posted May 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 The counter is real for Kommifornia! You don't have me yet, War Doves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurdanak Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 My apologies to my current opponents - I've had to put CN on the backburner lately due to RL matters that I won't go into specific details of on a public forum. Hopefully I'll get it together very soon, however. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwise Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 My apologies to my current opponents - I've had to put CN on the backburner lately due to RL matters that I won't go into specific details of on a public forum. Hopefully I'll get it together very soon, however. :) You are still fired >:| Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurdanak Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 You are still fired >:|Was that a big enough of an explosive return to put me into consideration for rehiring? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwise Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 Was that a big enough of an explosive return to put me into consideration for rehiring? ;) I've got something for you, Turtledove: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHEIN Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 (edited) I've got something for you, Turtledove: You both fail as WD gov; ONE Warrior has actually managed to avoid Anarchy. Unacceptable. :smug: Edited May 20, 2014 by ARCHEIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwise Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 You both fail as WD gov; ONE Warrior has actually managed to avoid Anarchy. Unacceptable. :smug: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqXaJqqp2SI]Here at War Doves, we like to take our time[/url] But it's coming... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurdanak Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 You both fail as WD gov; ONE Warrior has actually managed to avoid Anarchy. Unacceptable. :smug: I'm still catching up on lost time, give me a break. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John More Dread Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 (edited) Um, I'm a little confused guys... It seems a lot of people are complaining that an alliance might engage in a war it is pretty certain it can win. As if this were somehow dishonorable, like an 8th grader bullying a kindergartener, when in reality this is a nation simulation game, and only a stupid or desperate alliance of nations would EVER attack an enemy they weren't absolutely certain it could beat. It also seems a rather manipulative concept to take the attitude that people who are doing better at the game should not attack people doing worse at the game in order to help their own nations. Am I missing some major philosophical concept in this game? It seems like if we want a world where everything is "fair" and wars are fought, if at all, like in-tournament duels between statistically matched opponents, we shouldn't have a "war" button but a "model UN" button. The way the game is set up, however, there should be only the following considerations made to determine whether a war is justified, at least in TE: 1. Is the war in my alliance's best interest? 2. Is the war in my nation's best interest? If you pick your wars by asking "is the war in my OPPONENT'S best interest" you're not honorable, you're an idiot. And rather than putting yourself in the best position to win the game, you are screwing yourselves by trying to make yourselves look abstractly "fair". If you're playing chess against a vastly inferior opponent, and you deliberately make a less than optimal move to "give them a chance", you're insulting them. If you're already losing a chess game, and your opponent takes your queen, and you complain that this is unfair because they were already doing better than you, you're not enforcing fairness, you're being a sore loser. That is essentially what people who complain about unequal wars are doing. If you don't like the way the mechanics of the game allow people to attack inferior or vulnerable opponents, then find a different game, don't create a false concept of pixelated honor to try and sociopathically manipulate the people who are winning into not taking advantage of existing game mechanics that have been consciously designed to allow them to further enhance their position. PS: the only reason I'M in anarchy is because two of the nations I'm fighting apparently had WC's big enough to buy MP's and summarily nuke me while I was out and about. Which I must say was pretty clever, although I imagine more expensive than the damage you caused. Edited May 22, 2014 by John More Dread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHEIN Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 (edited) Um, I'm a little confused guys... It seems a lot of people are complaining that an alliance might engage in a war it is pretty certain it can win. As if this were somehow dishonorable, like an 8th grader bullying a kindergartener, when in reality this is a nation simulation game, and only a stupid or desperate alliance of nations would EVER attack an enemy they weren't absolutely certain it could beat. It also seems a rather manipulative concept to take the attitude that people who are doing better at the game should not attack people doing worse at the game in order to help their own nations. Am I missing some major philosophical concept in this game? It seems like if we want a world where everything is "fair" and wars are fought, if at all, like in-tournament duels between statistically matched opponents, we shouldn't have a "war" button but a "model UN" button. The way the game is set up, however, there should be only the following considerations made to determine whether a war is justified, at least in TE: 1. Is the war in my alliance's best interest? 2. Is the war in my nation's best interest? If you pick your wars by asking "is the war in my OPPONENT'S best interest" you're not honorable, you're an idiot. And rather than putting yourself in the best position to win the game, you are screwing yourselves by trying to make yourselves look abstractly "fair". If you're playing chess against a vastly inferior opponent, and you deliberately make a less than optimal move to "give them a chance", you're insulting them. If you're already losing a chess game, and your opponent takes your queen, and you complain that this is unfair because they were already doing better than you, you're not enforcing fairness, you're being a sore loser. That is essentially what people who complain about unequal wars are doing. If you don't like the way the mechanics of the game allow people to attack inferior or vulnerable opponents, then find a different game, don't create a false concept of pixelated honor to try and sociopathically manipulate the people who are winning into not taking advantage of existing game mechanics that have been consciously designed to allow them to further enhance their position. PS: the only reason I'M in anarchy is because two of the nations I'm fighting apparently had WC's big enough to buy MP's and summarily nuke me while I was out and about. Which I must say was pretty clever, although I imagine more expensive than the damage you caused. A heavyweight boxer who plans to fight a lighter weight has cleary planned to win. Nothing wrong with that, if you do not value your planning, skill, time investment ,etc etc. Yet, what will the heavyweight actually have accomplished in winning? Merely the mundane and the expected, the results of a boring and tedious bout. They either have no confidence in their ability or are simply lazy, perhaps with egos in need of inflation, by initiating a substantial down declare when more balanced options exsisted. Of course, every once in a while, the unexpected occurs: the heavyweight gets knocked on his ass, as current stats clearly demonstrate. A clear conclussion to be found here; downdeclares are low reward/high risk proposistions. Better choices exist. Edited May 22, 2014 by ARCHEIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvon Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 So ... We won, right? The bellyaching, and the "unfair" posts are for naught -- the statistically larger Warriors brought their clean, new tanks and uniforms and left in poopy rags with spare screws falling from their holey pockets ... War Doves are always prepared, always ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwise Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 Um, I'm a little confused guys... It seems a lot of people are complaining that an alliance might engage in a war it is pretty certain it can win. As if this were somehow dishonorable, like an 8th grader bullying a kindergartener, when in reality this is a nation simulation game, and only a stupid or desperate alliance of nations would EVER attack an enemy they weren't absolutely certain it could beat. It also seems a rather manipulative concept to take the attitude that people who are doing better at the game should not attack people doing worse at the game in order to help their own nations. Am I missing some major philosophical concept in this game? It seems like if we want a world where everything is "fair" and wars are fought, if at all, like in-tournament duels between statistically matched opponents, we shouldn't have a "war" button but a "model UN" button. The way the game is set up, however, there should be only the following considerations made to determine whether a war is justified, at least in TE: 1. Is the war in my alliance's best interest? 2. Is the war in my nation's best interest? If you pick your wars by asking "is the war in my OPPONENT'S best interest" you're not honorable, you're an idiot. And rather than putting yourself in the best position to win the game, you are screwing yourselves by trying to make yourselves look abstractly "fair". If you're playing chess against a vastly inferior opponent, and you deliberately make a less than optimal move to "give them a chance", you're insulting them. If you're already losing a chess game, and your opponent takes your queen, and you complain that this is unfair because they were already doing better than you, you're not enforcing fairness, you're being a sore loser. That is essentially what people who complain about unequal wars are doing. If you don't like the way the mechanics of the game allow people to attack inferior or vulnerable opponents, then find a different game, don't create a false concept of pixelated honor to try and sociopathically manipulate the people who are winning into not taking advantage of existing game mechanics that have been consciously designed to allow them to further enhance their position. I agree with your logic on certain points. Personally, I will never approve a war for War Doves where winning is impossible. That doesn't mean that the stats have to be in our favor, that means that I have studied each and every one of my members and I know their limitations, their schedules, and I know how they will react under pressure. Take Kurdanak for example. I can assign him 3 updeclares and I know that he will rise to the challenge every time. There is no fear of losing his own pixels programmed into him like some people. Is everyone in War Doves a Kurdanak? No, but that's where I, as their MoD, can use the knowledge I know about them and assign them accordingly. Everybody has different limitations, and it's my job to know them. But there is a difference between declaring a war where victory is certain, and declaring a war where you introduce competition. Does it make me an idiot to declare a war where it's possible that we could lose? I don't think so, but then again I hear ignorance is bliss. I think it would be rather boring if we all just attacked the lesser alliances. There would also be a lot less nations and alliances if so, and Admin has already threatened to remove TE due to lack of interest. But War Doves never complained when Warriors declared this war. We knew the numbers were against us, but we've been downdeclared before by better alliances than Warriors, and we've won. What were we going to do? Bitch and moan while watching our nations burn to the ground? No. War Doves don't fight for themselves, they fight for each other. This is why no matter what the odds, we will continue on until there's no one else on the War Doves AA. Winning wasn't our goal when we accepted your challenge, it was what our goal always is: Protect each other, because that's the reason you join an alliance - Protection. PS: the only reason I'M in anarchy is because two of the nations I'm fighting apparently had WC's big enough to buy MP's and summarily nuke me while I was out and about. Which I must say was pretty clever, although I imagine more expensive than the damage you caused. There's less than 2 weeks before the end of round wars start. The purchases we made during the war were not only to inflict damage upon you, but to also prepare for those wars as well, taking into consideration that our entire nuclear arsenal would likely be exhausted during this war . I know we boasted in here about a 100% Warriors anarchy rate, and I agree anarchy isn't everything, but anarchy is still anarchy and stopping your offensive while we continued to counter was part of our strategy that allowed us to overtake you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trs4ece Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 As the first set of rounds expired at update, there no longer exists a state of war between The Warriors and War Doves. While The Warriors could tally up victories on several fronts, the overall victors were the War Doves for this war. Now to address this down-declare/up-declare issue. Numbers are not everything. As has been proven here and has been proven in many wars between other alliances, the true victor will be the one who is best able to cooperate to take down their opponents. Even an enemy whose nation is 150% NS can be taken down by consecutive, coordinated attacks by a group of smaller nations. This is especially true if you throw nukes into the mix. Only when an alliance is able to function with near 100% coordination should they attempt to up-declare. To do otherwise is suicidal. Our ability to coordinate effectively was called into question after the battle with NDO and so we chose an opponent whose overall numeric strength was at or slightly below our own. The decision to attack War Doves after our defeat against NDO was designed to test our members ability to coordinate effectively. I put together the target list based on the availability of our members to encourage coordinated attacks. In the end, that backfired because we did not have enough of a blitz presence to anarchy more than a handful of War Doves. It did not help that most of the War Doves were armed to the teeth when we attacked. In retrospect, I should have waved off the attack but technical difficulties made that impossible. So yes, looking strictly at the numbers, this war should have favored The Warriors. However, considering The Warriors performance against NDO and WD's war history, I expected that our nations would be pushed to the limit; coordinate or die. Unfortunately, several nations chose the latter or were instantly anarchied leaving their wing-men to fight alone. With that said, those who did fight together, performed admirably. We will be looking over the data from this war and making some adjustments. Thanks for putting up a solid fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samwise Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 What this thread is missing is stats - and well, that's shameful IMO. These stats are from the stats downloads, so from 6 PM the evening of the blitz: War Doves Stats Total Nations: 25 Total Nation Strength: 276,238 Avg. NS: 11,050 Infra: 49,448 Tech: 6,756 Nukes: 59 Nuclear Nations: 8 Nations above 20k NS - 3 Nations above 15k NS - 2 Nations above 10k NS - 4 Nations above 5k NS - 12 Nations below 5k NS - 4 Warriors Stats Total Nations: 19 Total Nation Strength: 305,541 Avg. NS: 16,081 Infra: 46,271 Tech: 6,944 Nukes: 132 Nuclear Nations: 13 Nations above 20k NS - 6 Nations above 15k NS - 5 Nations above 10k NS - 3 Nations above 5k NS - 6 Nations below 5k NS - 0 ========== Post War ========== War Doves Stats Total Nations: 24 Total Nation Strength: 173,773 Avg. NS: 7,241 Infra: 31,938 Tech: 4,482 Nukes: 3 Warriors Stats Total Nations: 18 Total Nation Strength: 130,051 Avg. NS: 7,225 Infra: 18,706 Tech: 3,276 Nukes: 80 Total Infra/Tech/Land NS Losses: 216,000 NS War Doves Dealt ~60% of the damages: 128,156 NS [hr] Now to address this down-declare/up-declare issue. Numbers are not everything. As has been proven here and has been proven in many wars between other alliances, the true victor will be the one who is best able to cooperate to take down their opponents. Even an enemy whose nation is 150% NS can be taken down by consecutive, coordinated attacks by a group of smaller nations. This is especially true if you throw nukes into the mix. Only when an alliance is able to function with near 100% coordination should they attempt to up-declare. To do otherwise is suicidal. It is easy for you to say that numbers are not everything when you declared this war because the numbers were in your favor. By all accounts, you should have won this war and batting cleanup by day 4. Your nations on average were much bigger and many stocked with more than a handful of nukes. In fact, you had more than 50% more nations that were nuclear than we did. This statement is blatantly false: Our ability to coordinate effectively was called into question after the battle with NDO and so we chose an opponent whose overall numeric strength was at or slightly below our own. While we're on the topic of NDO, you also downdeclared them. Yes, they coordinated against you and from what I could tell they were beating you. That is until they ran out of nukes because you declared on them with triple their nuke numbers. You also never saw them complain once. The decision to attack War Doves after our defeat against NDO was designed to test our members ability to coordinate effectively. I put together the target list based on the availability of our members to encourage coordinated attacks. In the end, that backfired because we did not have enough of a blitz presence to anarchy more than a handful of War Doves. It did not help that most of the War Doves were armed to the teeth when we attacked. In retrospect, I should have waved off the attack but technical difficulties made that impossible. I can understand wanting to test your members, and choosing a softer opponent because you're not sure what they can do quite yet. But you skipped over 2 alliances softer than you to hit us. I understand that literally any alliance left to declare would have been classified as a downdeclare, so you really had no choice but to downdeclare, but there were opponents statistically closer to you than War Doves. As for your blitz, no, it wasn't the best, as you only ended up putting 2 WD nations into anarchy. However, that doesn't only reflect on you, but War Doves as well. You state we were militarized when you attacked. That is official War Doves policy. I spend a great deal of time reminding people how important our individual nations defenses are. So I wouldn't really put too much blame on yourself. So yes, looking strictly at the numbers, this war should have favored The Warriors. However, considering The Warriors performance against NDO and WD's war history, I expected that our nations would be pushed to the limit; coordinate or die. Unfortunately, several nations chose the latter or were instantly anarchied leaving their wing-men to fight alone. With that said, those who did fight together, performed admirably. We will be looking over the data from this war and making some adjustments. Thanks for putting up a solid fight. This is really the only statement you should have made. It's what makes me want to believe that there wasn't any hard feelings meant. War Doves wishes you well, and good luck for the remainder of the round. o/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDSupreme Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 B-) Sam, I have to give it up to you... you are the Coordination Master on TE...! :frantic: And your Pigeons showed to be a very hard meat to eat...! :lol1: A well fought Victory against a Seriously strong contender...! :popcorn: Now, if you could come out from TE-PD's shadow and influence... less Paul, less OP.... WD could be the REAL Policing Corps of this realm! :excl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartfw Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 B-) Sam, I have to give it up to you... you are the Coordination Master on TE...! :frantic: And your Pigeons showed to be a very hard meat to eat...! :lol1: A well fought Victory against a Seriously strong contender...! :popcorn: Now, if you could come out from TE-PD's shadow and influence... less Paul, less OP.... WD could be the REAL Policing Corps of this realm! :excl: I'm not sure why you are infatuated with us, but you should really give it up. TEPD has been around for less then 1 round, and somehow we have hijacked War Doves into under our shadow, all while coordinating zero wars or anything with them? You really need to worry more about your own alliance, and set of secret allies, and stop accusing us of stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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