Why the War?

[chefjoe]

I do have an allergy to lying, the amount of spin that Equilibrium is pulling on this is making me a bit sick. Feel free to point out where I've lied. Don't bother if you don't have the facts to back it up though, your words mean nothing.

 

Eh, I dont think you have lied M9P, but for AI to just assume your words about not going to PM and restocking after the wars with your alliance mates would be foolish. As AI .gov cannot see into the future that i know of we wuld then have to take the facts into account and the facts at the time were that you had gotten your first stagger borked, so you got into PM reloaded and then came out and hit AI again, then your slots were filled by your alliance mates,again with no stagger, so regardless of what you 'said' you were gonna do(not hit PM again and not redec any more wars) the prior facts refuted that and as those are what we had as an MO, we couldnt accept your declaration of intending to stop hostilities with AI and acted according. Thats just simple fact and form following function based upon prior modus operandi from yourself.

[Caliph]

My memory is fine, the only issue is that someone let a Blue team nation on the Umbrella AA, so any oversight quickly fact checking two pages of nuke strikes going back to mid-January was unintentional.  I own my mistakes.  Do you own yours?

 

 

Because a quick note to Admin would have resolve the issue...but that would require that you actually follow up.  Instead, you used it as cover...and if your people were doing so much damage, why were the war deleted?  One again, the whole thing smells bad.

 

 

Too bad you don't have an allergy to lying...you've been doing so much of it, I might even loan you an EpiPen.

 

In game decisions by moderation are not debatable or appealable, so no, a "quick note" to admin would not have resolved the issue, any new wars we declared on Puppets would have been reported as slot filing and would have been deleted and we would be right back where we started, except instead of attacking AI nations who mean us harm we would've taken some of our non anarchied guys and wasted their offensive declares on wars that AI would counter and which would get deleted anyway.

 

As to why the wars were deleted, we did out damage the AI nations at war with Puppets.  Then Duckroll and allies hit us and Puppets no longer became a priority since DR hit us 3 deep.  We no longer had a desire to waste resources on Puppets since Duckroll was the much bigger threat.  After you declared war on us and had engaged our nations, that is when the wars were deemed slot filling and deleted.  Your war on us was prior to any decision by moderation about the wars.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Caliph

[Masterof9puppets]

 
Eh, I dont think you have lied M9P, but for AI to just assume your words about not going to PM and restocking after the wars with your alliance mates would be foolish. As AI .gov cannot see into the future that i know of we wuld then have to take the facts into account and the facts at the time were that you had gotten your first stagger borked, so you got into PM reloaded and then came out and hit AI again, then your slots were filled by your alliance mates,again with no stagger, so regardless of what you 'said' you were gonna do(not hit PM again and not redec any more wars) the prior facts refuted that and as those are what we had as an MO, we couldnt accept your declaration of intending to stop hostilities with AI and acted according. Thats just simple fact and form following function based upon prior modus operandi from yourself.

Indeed, and I have no problem with doubting the word of a rogue that was attacking your alliance. However, some simple speculation (eg the rogue just blew his entire warchest and only has 80 mil left and oh he's also saying that this round of war is his last maybe the two are connected!) would have been useful. Two months later, when i still haven't declared any wars or retaliated or been active in the slightest might be a good time to drop the "you're a liar and were sent on a jihad by umbrella" bs propaganda. (directed towards footstool hal, not you). Along with all of the other crap his mouth is spewing.

[chefjoe]

Indeed, and I have no problem with doubting the word of a rogue that was attacking your alliance. However, some simple speculation (eg the rogue just blew his entire warchest and only has 80 mil left and oh he's also saying that this round of war is his last maybe the two are connected!) would have been useful. Two months later, when i still haven't declared any wars or retaliated or been active in the slightest might be a good time to drop the "you're a liar and were sent on a jihad by umbrella" bs propaganda. (directed towards footstool hal, not you). Along with all of the other crap his mouth is spewing.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but tbqh we didnt  gather an intel Spy op done on you so had no clue as to how much your WC was left after you re-bought, though we obviously saw that you spent a crap ton of money re-buying, for all we knew at the time you still had enough dongs left to keep going etc. So as we both know that without hard evidence to say otherwise we had to assume it would happen again despite your stating otherwise. Sounds like in the end it was a chicken and the egg kinda deal and only in hindsight(seeing you not re-dowing, just sending out your tech) did it become clear that you were being sincere.

[Masterof9puppets]

 
I understand where you are coming from, but tbqh we didnt  gather an intel Spy op done on you so had no clue as to how much your WC was left after you re-bought, though we obviously saw that you spent a crap ton of money re-buying, for all we knew at the time you still had enough dongs left to keep going etc. So as we both know that without hard evidence to say otherwise we had to assume it would happen again despite your stating otherwise. Sounds like in the end it was a chicken and the egg kinda deal and only in hindsight(seeing you not re-dowing, just sending out your tech) did it become clear that you were being sincere.

Well there were multiple intel spy ops done on me throughout the second round of war, but other than that I agree.

[Steve Buscemi]

Would it be honorable of me to stop raping your nation  :popcorn:

 

And GGA is not better mate

 

Wow, such a classy post.  Wouldn't expect anything different from TIO I guess.
 

[salsabeast1]

Wow, such a classy post.  Wouldn't expect anything different from TIO I guess.
 

NG speaking on classy. What a world.

[Caliph]

NG speaking on classy. What a world.

 

We call it like we see it.

[Partisan]

Wow, such a classy post.  Wouldn't expect anything different from TIO I guess.
 

 

Let's not go here, buddy.

[Brehon]

What a load of happy horse shit.

Lets look at a timeline shall we and in doing so we can take a look at the "why the war".

• In DH/NPO peace talks, Umbrella lets the NPO know via Natan we have not lost enough. Instead of MK pulling out matching NS from peace mode, for peace NPO has to offer up its highest teir to Umbrella high teir nations all declaring down.
• I tell Roq, MK gov and Sardonic there are no hardfeelings, well played and we go our way. Rog tells me he doesn't believe it, but we move forward.
• Roq gets on my show (this is post leaving Umbrella), I show my ass, Roq is embarrassed on the show, Umbrella and friends of Roq are pissed to high heaven.
• DH in one form or another tried to sell Valhalla was gunning for NPOsphere not realizing NPO, Olympus and Valhalla had been talking for MONTHS so we were sharing with one another what was being said.
• DH in one form or another stated they wanted a piece of Ai, even before it was finalized stating it was being done as an aggressive move against DH. Fact was, once again we were all talking and knew exactly why Ai was going to be formed. The fact of it was a combination of activity and internal need between the three. The project was in planning for MONTHS before DH decided to lob insults.
• DH tried to sell Ai wanted to fight CnG
• Word got out people in MK felt NPO was their greatest threat.
• DH asked NPO to go aggressive on targets (viewed as us doing lifting for them), we only agree to defend our allies. NPO DOS forces our allies to a side.
• DH internally breaks the deal to absorb NPO's ally NATO and privately asks Umbrella to hit a few of their largest targets.
• NPOsphere sans Ai (because Ai wanted no part of that crap war) take out GOD and VE due to attacks on NG by GOD.
• Umbrella aids targets fighting against NPO and NG, aka the other side of the war in which we were on the same side.
• TOP immediately after Dave war, whether it was gov or just people, attempted to sow discontent between Ai and her allies, specifically NPO.
• Umbrella taps Natan as their new leader who runs a platform of mending relations with NPO.
• NPO (aka I) flip my shit with Umbrella for tapping one of the most anti NPO people in Umbrella as leader, the same guy months prior who said we needed to lose more. Umbrella members respond accordingly.
• Several attempts are made by NPO (to include myself personally) to settle issues with Umbrella. None of them worked. Umbrella members attempted to calm the issues. None of that worked.
• Various issues back and forth between Umbrella and NPO, all minor.
• I notify my allies who are attached to DH I have had enough to the point maybe we should reconsider our treaties. In the end we all decide we would rather be treatied (my Umbrella concerns were known loud and often).
• DH breaks out old propaganda against Hegemony emotions.
• DH breaks out old members to put pressure on various allies to cover the growing distrust of Umbrella derp actions in order to hold treaties together which are seeing tension reach new levels.
• Tensions on the OWF mount as people start talking about a winter war (some of this was before I notified my allies, some after) and the "come at me bro", "do something about it", "you don't have the balls to attack" and etc etc etc start between the obvious two sides.
• Natan and I talk, both admit if given the chance we would punch each other in the face but agree it wouldn't benefit our mutual allies. Specifically Natan asks me to stop going all anti Umbrella on the air, I agree (and did stop).
• Issues with Puppets. Umbrella half ass tries to play politics about how they are doing more damage to him, avoiding the actual issue, tries to push their internal policy as one the world should accept and ONLY when it was clear Ai and friends have had enough does Natan decide to show up. That conversation is so dismissive we all shake our heads and realize Umbrella is going to keep playing this game of "okay we did this, but its isn't that bad"

Yes, you are correct only in the detail we have always held a contingency plan of being attacked. That contingency plan was initially talked about at very private levels between NPO, Olympus and friends once it was clear Umbrella wanted more. This effort continued to grow as aggressive moves were made/said about Ai. It grew more once Natan was made leader of Umbrella. Any alliance who says they do not have contingencies for enemies is a liar flat out. The only reason Umbrella didn't have a military contingency to NPO and others (do not deny the Umbrella political games its insulting) is because we lack any form of high end tier.

Did Ai, IRON, NPO, NATO, TIO all attack Umbrella? Yes. Were we aggressive in that we declared that war? Without doubt. Was it a random act of "because we want to"? Absolutely not, this is, was, will remain a measured response to a chain of events Umbrella could have handled better (sure we could have too) any step of the way. To say otherwise is again, a complete line of bullshit.

You poked, you prodded in little steps over and over again. You took on the perceptional facade of you couldn't be touched and made the fatal mistake other powers have made in the past, you believed your own bs. You are a victim here; a victim of your own actions. Do not hide the reasons for the war, we all have lived it. I understand the need to attempt to paint a picture so you can mend political fallout, but you can all stop now. I for one would be more understanding if you just admitted you screwed up and abused issues. At least from there we can move forward.

And for the love of Bob stop with the old Hegemony crap. I am pretty sick to death of you actually trying to pass off some oppression level propaganda about how you are going to be charged reps, how we all want to push all of CN under our boot. I want you all to try something you haven't had to do in years... talk to people you don't like as equals, you would be surprised what you learn. Finally stop trying to sell to your allies what NPO is going to do, if you want to know about something, ask me, stop being little school children trying to spin stories of what "could" happen. To date I have done EXACTLY what I have said I would do. Put on your big boy pants and talk face to face. Edited March 2, 2013 by Brehon

[Caliph]

What a load of happy horse shit.

Lets look at a timeline shall we and in doing so we can take a look at the "why the war".

• In DH/NPO peace talks, Umbrella lets the NPO know via Natan we have not lost enough. Instead of MK pulling out matching NS from peace mode, for peace NPO has to offer up its highest teir to Umbrella high teir nations all declaring down.
• I tell Roq, MK gov and Sardonic there are no hardfeelings, well played and we go our way. Rog tells me he doesn't believe it, but we move forward.
• Roq gets on my show (this is post leaving Umbrella), I show my ass, Roq is embarrassed on the show, Umbrella and friends of Roq are pissed to high heaven.
• DH in one form or another tried to sell Valhalla was gunning for NPOsphere not realizing NPO, Olympus and Valhalla had been talking for MONTHS so we were sharing with one another what was being said.
• DH in one form or another stated they wanted a piece of Ai, even before it was finalized stating it was being done as an aggressive move against DH. Fact was, once again we were all talking and knew exactly why Ai was going to be formed. The fact of it was a combination of activity and internal need between the three. The project was in planning for MONTHS before DH decided to lob insults.
• DH tried to sell Ai wanted to fight CnG
• Word got out people in MK felt NPO was their greatest threat.
• DH asked NPO to go aggressive on targets (viewed as us doing lifting for them), we only agree to defend our allies. NPO DOS forces our allies to a side.
• DH internally breaks the deal to absorb NPO's ally NATO and privately asks Umbrella to hit a few of their largest targets.
• NPOsphere sans Ai (because Ai wanted no part of that crap war) take out GOD and VE due to attacks on NG by GOD.
• Umbrella aids targets fighting against NPO and NG, aka the other side of the war in which we were on the same side.
• TOP immediately after Dave war, whether it was gov or just people, attempted to sow discontent between Ai and her allies, specifically NPO.
• Umbrella taps Natan as their new leader who runs a platform of mending relations with NPO.
• NPO (aka I) flip my shit with Umbrella for tapping one of the most anti NPO people in Umbrella as leader, the same guy months prior who said we needed to lose more. Umbrella members respond accordingly.
• Several attempts are made by NPO (to include myself personally) to settle issues with Umbrella. None of them worked. Umbrella members attempted to calm the issues. None of that worked.
• Various issues back and forth between Umbrella and NPO, all minor.
• I notify my allies who are attached to DH I have had enough to the point maybe we should reconsider our treaties. In the end we all decide we would rather be treatied (my Umbrella concerns were known loud and often).
• DH breaks out old propaganda against Hegemony emotions.
• DH breaks out old members to put pressure on various allies to cover the growing distrust of Umbrella derp actions in order to hold treaties together which are seeing tension reach new levels.
• Tensions on the OWF mount as people start talking about a winter war (some of this was before I notified my allies, some after) and the "come at me bro", "do something about it", "you don't have the balls to attack" and etc etc etc start between the obvious two sides.
• Natan and I talk, both admit if given the chance we would punch each other in the face but agree it wouldn't benefit our mutual allies. Specifically Natan asks me to stop going all anti Umbrella on the air, I agree (and did stop).
• Issues with Puppets. Umbrella half ass tries to play politics about how they are doing more damage to him, avoiding the actual issue, tries to push their internal policy as one the world should accept and ONLY when it was clear Ai and friends have had enough does Natan decide to show up. That conversation is so dismissive we all shake our heads and realize Umbrella is going to keep playing this game of "okay we did this, but its isn't that bad"

Yes, you are correct only in the detail we have always held a contingency plan of being attacked. That contingency plan was initially talked about at very private levels between NPO, Olympus and friends once it was clear Umbrella wanted more. This effort continued to grow as aggressive moves were made/said about Ai. It grew more once Natan was made leader of Umbrella. Any alliance who says they do not have contingencies for enemies is a liar flat out. The only reason Umbrella didn't have a military contingency to NPO and others (do not deny the Umbrella political games its insulting) is because we lack any form of high end tier.

Did Ai, IRON, NPO, NATO, TIO all attack Umbrella? Yes. Were we aggressive in that we declared that war? Without doubt. Was it a random act of "because we want to"? Absolutely not, this is, was, will remain a measured response to a chain of events Umbrella could have handled better (sure we could have too) any step of the way. To say otherwise is again, a complete line of bullshit.

You poked, you prodded in little steps over and over again. You took on the perceptional facade of you couldn't be touched and made the fatal mistake other powers have made in the past, you believed your own bs. You are a victim here; a victim of your own actions. Do not hide the reasons for the war, we all have lived it. I understand the need to attempt to paint a picture so you can mend political fallout, but you can all stop now. I for one would be more understanding if you just admitted you screwed up and abused issues. At least from there we can move forward.

And for the love of Bob stop with the old Hegemony crap. I am pretty sick to death of you actually trying to pass off some oppression level propaganda about how you are going to be charged reps, how we all want to push all of CN under our boot. I want you all to try something you haven't had to do in years... talk to people you don't like as equals, you would be surprised what you learn. Finally stop trying to sell to your allies what NPO is going to do, if you want to know about something, ask me, stop being little school children trying to spin stories of what "could" happen. To date I have done EXACTLY what I have said I would do. Put on your big boy pants and talk face to face.

 

What a load of anti DH drivel.  NPO had their part, AI had their part, IRON had their part.  This war wasn't caused by Umbrella's actions, not 100%, but by DR's decision to roll DH.  Our actions caused them to think one way about DH, our actions made their coalition busy easy, but trying to claim that everything was our fault is a load of crap.

 

That said, it is appreciated you're not lying and spinning on the nature of this war.  AI and IRON could take lessons from you in that regard.

[Charles the Great]

Look when will you understand if you act like the schoolyard bully pushing everyone around. It is your fault when you get the inevitable beatdown.

 

:facepalm:

[Tick1]

Look when will you understand if you act like the schoolyard bully pushing everyone around. It is your fault when you get the inevitable beatdown.

 

:facepalm:

When will you learn if you dress like a skank you're going to get raped......Oh wait.

[Brehon]

What a load of anti DH drivel.  NPO had their part, AI had their part, IRON had their part.  This war wasn't caused by Umbrella's actions, not 100%, but by DR's decision to roll DH.  Our actions caused them to think one way about DH, our actions made their coalition busy easy, but trying to claim that everything was our fault is a load of crap.
 
That said, it is appreciated you're not lying and spinning on the nature of this war.  AI and IRON could take lessons from you in that regard.

Caliph I never said we didn't have our part, at all, you need to reread. This war is based on the actions of Umbrella, NPO and all parties involved. To act as if you didn't (which is what YOU have been posting) is why I posted that. Absolutely NO WHERE did I say it was all 100% umbrellas fault.

[IYIyTh]

this is all clearly a continuation of ujp oppresion

[Tick1]

Caliph I never said we didn't have our part, at all, you need to reread. This war is based on the actions of Umbrella, NPO and all parties involved. To act as if you didn't (which is what YOU have been posting) is why I posted that. Absolutely NO WHERE did I say it was all 100% umbrellas fault.

 

Hey Brehon, really don't care about your post at all, but thanks for agreeing that you are the aggressors in terms of this war. You are correct when saying we went out of our way to encourage you guys in declaring on us. That being said, audios.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

this is all clearly a continuation of ujp oppresion

 

Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help help I'm being repressed!

 

 

 

 

 

 

e: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS_1bzaj2fw

Edited March 3, 2013 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[chefjoe]

What a load of anti DH drivel.  NPO had their part, AI had their part, IRON had their part.  This war wasn't caused by Umbrella's actions, not 100%, but by DR's decision to roll DH.  Our actions caused them to think one way about DH, our actions made their coalition busy easy, but trying to claim that everything was our fault is a load of crap.

 

That said, it is appreciated you're not lying and spinning on the nature of this war.  AI and IRON could take lessons from you in that regard.

 

Sure we will take a few courses in those lessons when Umbrella decides to remove the self made Ivory tower out of their ass. Fair is fair after all ;)

[JoshuaR]

Well, from all that, what I get is that NPO didn't like Umbrella and especially Natan, who enforced the agreement of pulling Pacifican nations out of peace mode at the end of DH/NPO and was thus a hardass. We did such antagonizing things as to defend in voice our former leader Roquentin even while he was spilling vitriol about our own alliance, send a total of nine million dollars to our own enemies (which is it: the billions sent to GOONS are meaningless, or the nine mil of joke aid sent to a nation in the upper mid tier is a grave offense?), and then actively attack a rogue nation, formerly of our own alliance. While at war, we did not avoid hitting the enemy, even though our dear ally, Pacifica, asked us to do so.

 

Those are the facts. The rest is hearsay, spin, or simply pure propaganda.

 

But that's okay. Because hating someone is a far better reason for war than pretending that fighting a rogue nation was the hair that broke the camel's back and ushered the entire world into one of the largest wars this realm has ever seen.

[Brehon]

JoshuaR said: Let me twist what Natan said and make it about during the peace process, forgetting it was AFTER the NS was given up.
JoshuaR said: Its okay we went against our word in a coalition because we are not allies with Pacifica.
JoshuaR said: Its okay we aided AGAINST our coalition against NG and NPO because the act itself is only valued on the amount of aid.
JoshuaR said: I will ignore when Brehon said he showed his ass and I only look to justify Umbrella retallitory actions in response as if Brehon didn't already say it was "in kind".
JoshuaR said: Its okay that Umbrella enforced its internal policy for the world to accept. No one else can do that, hell I will ignore history and the political landscape that is easier than saying we screwed up. None of that matters, we are Umbrella and make the rules, forget we handed you a CB in what will go down as a great political blunder.

Your post is the kind of drivel spin Umbrella has been politically pushing, at this point, for years. You twist and contort the facts, omit little pieces to adjust the lighting and then get defiant against anyone who "dares" to challenge your bs. You know when my kids were little, and I am talking preteen here, they tried the same thing. It didn't work for them and its not going to work for you. Unlike the general people you argue with normally on here, I am the guy that lived through and even gave up my own faults in it without reservation. For once if Umbrella was accountable and responsible I think the collective world would pass out in shock.

[RevolutionaryRebel]

I believe this video will be most useful in determining who is truly responsible for this war.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gye0nO_efqI

 

Problem?

[Tick1]

JoshuaR said: Let me twist what Natan said and make it about during the peace process, forgetting it was AFTER the NS was given up.
JoshuaR said: Its okay we went against our word in a coalition because we are not allies with Pacifica.
JoshuaR said: Its okay we aided AGAINST our coalition against NG and NPO because the act itself is only valued on the amount of aid.
JoshuaR said: I will ignore when Brehon said he showed his ass and I only look to justify Umbrella retallitory actions in response as if Brehon didn't already say it was "in kind".
JoshuaR said: Its okay that Umbrella enforced its internal policy for the world to accept. No one else can do that, hell I will ignore history and the political landscape that is easier than saying we screwed up. None of that matters, we are Umbrella and make the rules, forget we handed you a CB in what will go down as a great political blunder.

Your post is the kind of drivel spin Umbrella has been politically pushing, at this point, for years. You twist and contort the facts, omit little pieces to adjust the lighting and then get defiant against anyone who "dares" to challenge your bs. You know when my kids were little, and I am talking preteen here, they tried the same thing. It didn't work for them and its not going to work for you. Unlike the general people you argue with normally on here, I am the guy that lived through and even gave up my own faults in it without reservation. For once if Umbrella was accountable and responsible I think the collective world would pass out in shock.

 

Don't worry, I don't think we'll be held accountable anytime soon.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Tick1

[JoshuaR]

I oppose the poor grammar in the "JoshuaR said" attributions. :P