An Announcement from the Global Alliance and Treaty Organization

[D34th]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1343972369' post='3018061']
What are you blithering about? I have been loyal to ODN since February 2006. I haven't 'changed sides' once.

D34th speaking his mind is the problem - we all get to see the vacuity in there.
[/quote]

You are more than welcome to ignore my posts if you don't have solid arguments to reply them and need harmless insults to try to look smart, I'm not going to miss you, I swear.

Edited August 3, 2012 by D34th

[Timberland]

go get'em GATO

[Azreal]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1343966380' post='3018032']
I feel this is what you tell yourself to be able to sleep at night, but I don't need to be in the same situation to know what I should do, and belive me or not, I (belive your or not) would not stay or accept to be in alliance who bend over when facing ridiculous peace terms.
[/quote]

It's very easy to sit a high horse when you have no idea what being in that situation is like, but you'll have excuse us if your opinion means little to those that have been through it.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Azreal

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1343907419' post='3017813']
Just trying to make sure I understand correctly, your terms to Legion are 1 round of war with their upper tiers and a surrender?And they rejected that? Wow. That doesn't sound like the Legion I remember dealing with who were, despite their faults, fairly reasonable.
[/quote]

No no no. Legion isn't in question here. They've fought extremely well. The terms were for MCXA to come out for 1 round of war. I don't doubt the size of Legion's spherical manhood.

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1343912509' post='3017821']
You talk so tough for someone who, to enforce peace, has to call in additional firepower. You couldn't even win this war without the help of your allies, so why are you bashing another alliance's warrior prowess? You have overwhelming odds, of course you're going to act tough.

One day, the tables will turn, as they always do. We'll see how you react.
[/quote]

The Legion/MCXA coalition has (roughly) 12.1 million NS and 516 nations.

The ODN/BFF coalition has (roughly) 18.6 million NS and 494 nations. (all stats pre-GATO. If you want to factor in GATO, I'll factor in Sparta)

Not quite overwhelming odds, especially since they have more nations. Calling in support to help fill out a lower-tier isn't a bad sign. It's a sign that you have support. I'm really sick of the losing side of every war crying about how abusive the winning side is. What we're seeing today is nothing like what we saw at the height of the Hegemony (of which MCXA was a part, might I remind you). We're winning this war just fine, and in fact, our opponents have already admitted they've lost. They were just unhappy with the terms. We've been on the wrong side of a beatdown before (keep in mind Europa is UCN with a different name) and we never !@#$%*ed and moaned about being dogpiled. Crawl back into your hole, Starfox, because nobody wants to wash your drool towels anymore. Your constant frothing at the mouth and spasms of anger worry us all deeply, and I think it's time you got some help.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1343972215' post='3018059']
So because I'm not taking part in this war you think I'm just talk?
[/quote]

Pretty much, until your actions echo your words then you will simply be viewed as the mouthpiece of a fool.

[bkphysics]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1343972369' post='3018061']
What are you blithering about? I have been loyal to ODN since February 2006. I haven't 'changed sides' once.

D34th speaking his mind is the problem - we all get to see the vacuity in there.
[/quote]
I don't think loyalty to ODN is what he is referring to. Maybe think more along the lines of how the ODN has become accustomed to having the same leash around their necks but with different owners holding it up? Of course I don't speak for starfox, but i would guess that is along with what he was implying.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1344007645' post='3018134']
Pretty much, until your actions echo your words then you will simply be viewed as the mouthpiece of a fool.
[/quote]
Only a fool would ever discount the value words can carry, not all actions need to be made with a gun in hand.

[Pingu]

[quote name='bkphysics' timestamp='1344014103' post='3018165']
I don't think loyalty to ODN is what he is referring to. Maybe think more along the lines of how the ODN has become accustomed to having the same leash around their necks but with different owners holding it up? Of course I don't speak for starfox, but i would guess that is along with what he was implying.
[/quote]

I am aware that he was probably attempting to imply something of this sort. But since that whole line of argument is fallacious, it is not incumbent upon me to infer it. Rather I can deal with what he actually said.

I realize that loyalty to one's alliance is not universally held in high esteem. But the substance of the argument here is that various past leaders of GATO and Legion would have done better to abandon their alliances rather than help them survive through the most difficult circumstances. I do not see things the way Messrs Starfox, D34th et al see them. It takes true strength of character to stand by one's alliance in the darkest times, which viceroyships were.

[D34th]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1344015033' post='3018173']
But the substance of the argument here is that various past leaders of GATO and Legion would have done better to abandon their alliances rather than help them survive through the most difficult circumstances. I do not see things the way Messrs Starfox, D34th et al see them. It takes true strength of character to stand by one's alliance in the darkest times, which viceroyships were.
[/quote]

You would be correct if that was what I said.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1343947562' post='3017955']
Not my fault if you bend over and accepted the viceroyship, indeed most people would disband and that's just because most people sucks, but [b]disbandment is better than slavery while [u]both are still terrible choices[/u] when you always can keep fighting[/b], what the worse thing that can happen? Be Zi'ed? Boo hoo! I love my freedom much more than my infra or technology, if your GATO members don't, shame on you. The fact is that your alliance preferred slavery than keep fighting, may be nobody said to you that your alliance had this option or the members were too afraid of lose more infra to think in this possibility, but if you really think that you deserve any respect because your alliance bend over and it's members passively accepted it I have to laugh, a lot.
[/quote]

What you are saying is take takes true strength of character to endure slavery and I disagree, since in viceroyship all you need to do is obey your masters and all that it requires is a passive behavior. True strength of character is do anything to not become a slave since there was as a third way, keep fighting. Now you and GATO members can give me any amount of poor excuses about how I never was in this situation and crap like that, but the fact remains: Unlike others alliances when facing terrible odds, they decided that their infra was more important than their freedom and accepted ridiculous surrender terms in order to save any infra they had left.

Now some of you would be asking why bring such old facts to the discussion and I tell you: The best way to discover how someone or something will behave in future is look at the past and both GATO and ODN has a long history of taking poor and coward decisions to save their own skin when facing losing wars.

[Varianz]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1343988312' post='3018090']
No no no. Legion isn't in question here. They've fought extremely well. The terms were for MCXA to come out for 1 round of war. I don't doubt the size of Legion's spherical manhood.
[/quote]
Ah ok, that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[Laserwolf]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1344020020' post='3018186']
You would be correct if that was what I said.
What you are saying is take takes true strength of character to endure slavery and I disagree, since in viceroyship all you need to do is obey your masters and all that it requires is a passive behavior. True strength of character is do anything to not become a slave since there was as a third way, keep fighting. Now you and GATO members can give me any amount of poor excuses about how I never was in this situation and crap like that, but the fact remains: Unlike others alliances when facing terrible odds, they decided that their infra was more important than their freedom and accepted ridiculous surrender terms in order to save any infra they had left.

Now some of you would be asking why bring such old facts to the discussion and I tell you: The best way to discover how someone or something will behave in future is look at the past and both GATO and ODN has a long history of taking poor and coward decisions to save their own skin when facing losing wars.
[/quote]

*sigh*

To say GATO wanted to hug our infra is absurd seeing as 95% of us had no infra to hug at the time.

To say it was a coward decision to take "ridiculous surrender terms" is a bit of a stretch as the coward action, in my opinion, would have been to disband, tuck-tail and run for the hills. While yes, 1-2 people mentioned GATO disbanding or feeling that was the only way to survive 1V, the prospect of disbandment was never taken seriously. In that moment in time, the desire for and the overall need for the community was to accept the terms given to us. Was it the terms we wanted? Heck no. What I learned a long time ago is to never thump an alligator on the nose when you're standing waist deep in swamp water.

Also, to say we bent over and took whatever the Viceroyship said/wanted is hilarious. Ask Cortath, Baka, Zeta, or SDRD (especially SDRD) about the grief we gave the entire Viceroy staff. It's amazing none of them rage quit on us.

Anywho, I know where you stand D34th, understand your point of view, and am quite content to agree to disagree. This argument/discussion will continue to go in circles because of the differences in perception and philosophy of leadership and decision making. This is just same song different verse. I'll gladly continue to talk though it may be more productive to be done so via other channels.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Laserwolf

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1344020020' post='3018186']
You would be correct if that was what I said.



What you are saying is take takes true strength of character to endure slavery and I disagree, since in viceroyship all you need to do is obey your masters and all that it requires is a passive behavior. True strength of character is do anything to not become a slave since there was as a third way, keep fighting. Now you and GATO members can give me any amount of poor excuses about how I never was in this situation and crap like that, but the fact remains: Unlike others alliances when facing terrible odds, they decided that their infra was more important than their freedom and accepted ridiculous surrender terms in order to save any infra they had left.

Now some of you would be asking why bring such old facts to the discussion and I tell you: The best way to discover how someone or something will behave in future is look at the past and both GATO and ODN has a long history of taking poor and coward decisions to save their own skin when facing losing wars.
[/quote]

So, fighting for months and accepting a viceroy was the cowardly option, as would disbanding have been. So your solution was perma war? The only way they would have gained your expect was to fighting forever until they were all bill-locked.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you D34th, he'll be here all week. Unfortunately

[Pingu]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1344020020' post='3018186']
You would be correct if that was what I said.

What you are saying is take takes true strength of character to endure slavery and I disagree, since in viceroyship all you need to do is obey your masters and all that it requires is a passive behavior. True strength of character is do anything to not become a slave since there was as a third way, keep fighting. Now you and GATO members can give me any amount of poor excuses about how I never was in this situation and crap like that, but the fact remains: Unlike others alliances when facing terrible odds, they decided that their infra was more important than their freedom and accepted ridiculous surrender terms in order to save any infra they had left.

Now some of you would be asking why bring such old facts to the discussion and I tell you: The best way to discover how someone or something will behave in future is look at the past and both GATO and ODN has a long history of taking poor and coward decisions to save their own skin when facing losing wars.
[/quote]

Back when there actually was an evil hegemony, and a majority willing to facilitate it, then resisting it often left a choice of temporarily conceding to what you term slavery - evil practices happily now banished from the world due to the benevolence of Admin and the current, cuddly dominant powers - or complete annihilation. That the world today is free of such non-choices is thanks to the survival of alliances (not of infrastructure) that were able eventually to tear down that oppressive order of things and build something better. Much as I respect FAN for their 'keep fighting' approach (they're the only alliance I can think of that approximates your description), they didn't end that old order of things, nor could they have through that approach.

I agree with Senor Lasergato that this will go nowhere productive. But I'm sure you'll be back to re-re-restate your opinion that we are terrible alliances for surviving this long.

[Banedon]

Terrible for surviving this long, I think I've heard that before...

It's an old hat. People have been saying Legion was terrible for ages. "We should have disbanded." "You're a pitiful shell of yourselves."

Accepting temporary weakness to gather strength and throw off your shackles, is not weakness. It is Wisdom. To not only survive, but thrive is the ultimate defiance when the powers of the world want you dead.

[D34th]

[quote name='Laserwolf' timestamp='1344021300' post='3018190']
*sigh*

To say GATO wanted to hug our infra is absurd seeing as 95% of us had no infra to hug at the time.

To say it was a coward decision to take "ridiculous surrender terms" is a bit of a stretch as the coward action, in my opinion, would have been to disband, tuck-tail and run for the hills. While yes, 1-2 people mentioned GATO disbanding or feeling that was the only way to survive 1V, the prospect of disbandment was never taken seriously. In that moment in time, the desire for and the overall need for the community was to accept the terms given to us. Was it the terms we wanted? Heck no. What I learned a long time ago is to never thump an alligator on the nose when you're standing waist deep in swamp water.

Also, to say we bent over and took whatever the Viceroyship said/wanted is hilarious. Ask Cortath, Baka, Zeta, or SDRD (especially SDRD) about the grief we gave the entire Viceroy staff. It's amazing none of them rage quit on us.

Anywho, I know where you stand D34th, understand your point of view, and am quite content to agree to disagree. This argument/discussion will continue to go in circles because of the differences in perception and philosophy of leadership and decision making. This is just same song different verse. I'll gladly continue to talk though it may be more productive to be done so via other channels.
[/quote]

We agree to disagree then. I have to say that I appreciate the respectful post, this is a rare thing to see nowadays.


[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' timestamp='1344021972' post='3018193']
So, fighting for months and accepting a viceroy was the cowardly option, as would disbanding have been. So your solution was perma war? The only way they would have gained your expect was to fighting forever until they were all bill-locked.
[/quote]

Yes, since perma war never last forever, see what happened with FAN. What's the big deal of being bill-locked? Opethian of PPF stayed among us for years while being bill locked and enjoyed his stay nonetheless. This is the type of comment who make me believe you're the same type of person who care more about your nation stats than about your principles.


[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1344022214' post='3018195']
Back when there actually was an evil hegemony, and a majority willing to facilitate it, then resisting it often left a choice of temporarily conceding to what you term slavery - evil practices happily now banished from the world due to the benevolence of Admin and the current, cuddly dominant powers - or complete annihilation. That the world today is free of such non-choices is thanks to the survival of alliances (not of infrastructure) that were able eventually to tear down that oppressive order of things and build something better. Much as I respect FAN for their 'keep fighting' approach (they're the only alliance I can think of that approximates your description), they didn't end that old order of things, nor could they have through that approach.

I agree with Senor Lasergato that this will go nowhere productive. But I'm sure you'll be back to re-re-restate your opinion that we are terrible alliances for surviving this long.
[/quote]

I don't think you are terrible for surviving this long, I think you are terrible because the decisions you've done to survive when there were much more honorable ways to do the same thing and I think you are terrible because your choice of only survive instead of aiming for great things, at least GATO were one of the world leaders back to great wars times, but ODN never had any other ambition than survive and suck those in power.

Edited August 3, 2012 by D34th

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1344015033' post='3018173']
I am aware that he was probably attempting to imply something of this sort. But since that whole line of argument is fallacious, it is not incumbent upon me to infer it. Rather I can deal with what he actually said.

I realize that loyalty to one's alliance is not universally held in high esteem. But the substance of the argument here is that various past leaders of GATO and Legion would have done better to abandon their alliances rather than help them survive through the most difficult circumstances. I do not see things the way Messrs Starfox, D34th et al see them. It takes true strength of character to stand by one's alliance in the darkest times, which viceroyships were.
[/quote]

SOMEONE PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD, as im now [b]agreeing[/b] with Pingu^ in the same thread ive defended GATO.....admin help me

Edited August 3, 2012 by chefjoe

[Pingu]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1344024831' post='3018212']
SOMEONE PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD, as im now [b]agreeing[/b] with Pingu^ in the same thread ive defended GATO.....admin help me
[/quote]

Oh gods, no. Make it stop.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1344023339' post='3018201']

Yes, since perma war never last forever, see what happened with FAN. What's the big deal of being bill-locked? Opethian of PPF stayed among us for years while being bill locked and enjoyed his stay nonetheless. This is the type of comment who make me believe you're the same type of person who care more about your nation stats than about your principles.

[/quote]

FAN spent 2+ years in perma-war and lost countless members, crippling their alliance, that isn't living, that isn't fun. The big deal of being bill-locked is that you're irrelevant, you can't do anything with a bill-locked nation, you are effectively dead NS and you might as well not exist at all.

As for your last bit, clearly you're misinformed. If you'll kindly check my nation you'll see that I have only 60,000 less casualties, 3.66 million to your 3.72 than you despite your nation being over 2.5 years older. I have never shirked a battle, indeed I've fought battles that I had no requirement to become involved in when I joined IRON to help drag down Gramlins after I'd already been beat-down in Bi-Polar, and joining NSO as their sole 100k nation as I got 3v1'ed down to ZI against Legion. I fought both of those wars because of my principles and my beliefs with little regard for my pixels, and indeed I'm still doing so right now while you cry foul from your ivory tower. If you have such an issue then by all means join Legion and fight for their cause.

You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone, I just think it is a shoddy argument.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Lord Fingolfin

[D34th]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' timestamp='1344025567' post='3018215']
FAN spent 2+ years in perma-war and lost countless members, crippling their alliance, that isn't living, that isn't fun. The big deal of being bill-locked is that you're irrelevant, you can't do anything with a bill-locked nation, you are effectively dead NS and you might as well not exist at all.

As for your last bit, clearly you're misinformed. If you'll kindly check my nation you'll see that I have only 60,000 less casualties, 3.66 million to your 3.72 than you despite your nation being over 2.5 years older. I have never shirked a battle, indeed I've fought battles that I had no requirement to become involved in when I joined IRON to help drag down Gramlins after I'd already been beat-down in Bi-Polar, and joining NSO as their sole 100k nation as I got 3v1'ed down to ZI against Legion. I fought both of those wars because of my principles and my beliefs with little regard for my pixels, and indeed I'm still doing so right now while you cry foul from your ivory tower. If you have such an issue then by all means join Legion and fight for their cause.

You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone, I just think it is a shoddy argument.
[/quote]

So for you is better and funnier become a lackey of someone else? I can bet that FAN had more fun in the 2 years of perma-war than GATO had in their time having to serve a NPO viceroy. People around here usually repeats thousand times that war is fun, but what they really mean is that war is fun only when they are winning. I also disagree with this vision that having zero infra/tech make you become irrelevant, many of the most important leaders of prominent alliances of the past and present are/used to be very relevant to cyberverse even having a tiny nation, Vox who was one the most important movements of CN history were made in their great majority for members in perma-ZI lists.

[Lord Fingolfin]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1344026653' post='3018219']
So for you is better and funnier become a lackey of someone else? I can bet that FAN had more fun in the 2 years of perma-war than GATO had in their time having to serve a NPO viceroy. People around here usually repeats thousand times that war is fun, but what they really mean is that war is fun only when they are winning. I also disagree with this vision that having zero infra/tech make you become irrelevant, many of the most important leaders of prominent alliances of the past and present are/used to be very relevant to cyberverse even having a tiny nation, Vox who was one the most important movements of CN history were made in their great majority for members in perma-ZI lists.
[/quote]

I would make the assertion that in the case of both FAN and GATO neither had a very fun time in their respective scenarios. When FAN finally got out of perma-war they weren't all "Oh haha lol thanks for the fun times warring NPO", it was more along the lines of "I will rape your wives, sell your children into slavery, burn down your cities, and sow the ground with salt so that nothing will every grow again and then after that you will have my permission to die."

War is fun, sure, it can even be fun when you're losing (hell I'm losing right now arguably and I'm still having a pretty good time) but nobody enjoys getting completely wrecked and destroyed. That isn't fun. Sports are fun too, even losing a match of soccer if you played a good game and it was a intense match can be fun. It isn't fun losing 10-0 though in a game where you are clearly outmatched.

And yes there have been significant entities/people who have operated with insignificant nations. Ivan, Sponge, others come to mind. But they were able to do this because their own nation didn't matter, it was just a small part of the whole. They had millions of NS from their alliance and others to back them up, their individual nation was meaningless. In the case of Vox, sure, they weren't a statistical force but they were still relevant you argue. Their relevance was because they played a part in convincing people who had NS to oppose NPO. Without SF/C&G/Continuum defectors going to bat in Karma then they would have been completely ineffectual and useless. You in particular might not need NS to be relevant, but you need to have it from somewhere otherwise there is no bite to your bark.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='bkphysics' timestamp='1344014103' post='3018165']
I don't think loyalty to ODN is what he is referring to. Maybe think more along the lines of how the ODN has become accustomed to having the same leash around their necks but with different owners holding it up? Of course I don't speak for starfox, but i would guess that is along with what he was implying.


Only a fool would ever discount the value words can carry, not all actions need to be made with a gun in hand.
[/quote]

Words lacking substance are meaningless.

Highly amusing that someone can talk about permanent war being noble and honorable in comparison to being under a viceroyship...yet this same person has been screaming about this war since its inception and yet has not fought in it at all. Am I the only one who finds their only in that?

Edited August 4, 2012 by Charles Stuart

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1343988312' post='3018090']
The Legion/MCXA coalition has (roughly) 12.1 million NS and 516 nations.

The ODN/BFF coalition has (roughly) 18.6 million NS and 494 nations. (all stats pre-GATO. If you want to factor in GATO, I'll factor in Sparta)

Not quite overwhelming odds, especially since they have more nations. Calling in support to help fill out a lower-tier isn't a bad sign. It's a sign that you have support. I'm really sick of the losing side of every war crying about how abusive the winning side is. What we're seeing today is nothing like what we saw at the height of the Hegemony (of which MCXA was a part, might I remind you). We're winning this war just fine, and in fact, our opponents have already admitted they've lost. They were just unhappy with the terms. We've been on the wrong side of a beatdown before (keep in mind Europa is UCN with a different name) and we never !@#$%*ed and moaned about being dogpiled. Crawl back into your hole, Starfox, because nobody wants to wash your drool towels anymore. Your constant frothing at the mouth and spasms of anger worry us all deeply, and I think it's time you got some help.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to claim even somewhat even odds here? The stats you just put up show a 6.5 million NS gap. 24 more nations isn't going to affect that at all. You even went further to add Sparta as a party, an alliance tied down by numerous more wars. Is that really a fair number to add? At least call it what it is, you're not very good at trying to be a lawyer. Now, you refer to me as the losing side. Please do share how I've lost while not participating? Not to mention, you're trying to lecture me on a hegemony I fought for years, while you sat idly by. Yes, that hegemony? Please tell me more about it, expert. I don't need to be reminded of who was in it, as I am well aware. The past doesn't matter, no grudges should be held. Only the present matters. Thank you for also attempting to diagnose me. Again, it is well appreciated. I think I'll be okay though.

Try again, junior.

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1343972369' post='3018061']
What are you blithering about? I have been loyal to ODN since February 2006. I haven't 'changed sides' once.
[/quote]
Swing...and a miss.

[quote name='bkphysics' timestamp='1344014103' post='3018165']
I don't think loyalty to ODN is what he is referring to. Maybe think more along the lines of how the ODN has become accustomed to having the same leash around their necks but with different owners holding it up? Of course I don't speak for starfox, but i would guess that is along with what he was implying.
[/quote]
I'm glad someone got it. Thank you, bk.

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1344015033' post='3018173']
I am aware that he was probably attempting to imply something of this sort. But since that whole line of argument is fallacious, it is not incumbent upon me to infer it. Rather I can deal with what he actually said.

I realize that loyalty to one's alliance is not universally held in high esteem. But the substance of the argument here is that various past leaders of GATO and Legion would have done better to abandon their alliances rather than help them survive through the most difficult circumstances. I do not see things the way Messrs Starfox, D34th et al see them. It takes true strength of character to stand by one's alliance in the darkest times, which viceroyships were.
[/quote]
Really? Are you really going to lecture me about sticking with something even through dark times? Way to make an entirely, and utterly baseless accusation. I continued fights with the NPO long after you surrendered, or stood idly by and watched others burn. I've been sent to ZI so many times it's not even funny. You're really going to talk to a founding and lifetime member of Vox Populi about striving through difficult circumstances? What you said made sense, and I never debated that. However, you show a complete ignorance of history by throwing accusations at people which you know nothing about. You're so tough for letting someone else run your alliance and surrendering. So much tougher than the guy who decided the hell with that, and fought for [i]years[/i].

[Arciel]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1344024831' post='3018212']
SOMEONE PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD, as im now [b]agreeing[/b] with Pingu^ in the same thread ive defended GATO.....admin help me
[/quote]

You should do this more often.

[Pingu]

I'm not lecturing you, Starfox - I don't expect to persuade you of anything. Nor am I the one playing tough guy here. I repeat that I do not see things the way you do. You and your friends are condemning the choices made by those who helped Legion & GATO survive the dark times. I disagree. I will continue to disagree. You will continue to hold your opinion. Life will go on.

And GATO will presumably soon be at peace with Legion. Huzzah!

[Starfox101]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1344051999' post='3018329']
I'm not lecturing you, Starfox - I don't expect to persuade you of anything. Nor am I the one playing tough guy here. I repeat that I do not see things the way you do. You and your friends are condemning the choices made by those who helped Legion & GATO survive the dark times. I disagree. I will continue to disagree. You will continue to hold your opinion. Life will go on.

And GATO will presumably soon be at peace with Legion. Huzzah!
[/quote]
I never even once spoke about the choices made regarding Legion and GATO. I really don't know where you are getting this from.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1344050773' post='3018319']
Are you seriously trying to claim even somewhat even odds here? The stats you just put up show a 6.5 million NS gap. 24 more nations isn't going to affect that at all. You even went further to add Sparta as a party, an alliance tied down by numerous more wars. Is that really a fair number to add? At least call it what it is, you're not very good at trying to be a lawyer. Now, you refer to me as the losing side. Please do share how I've lost while not participating? Not to mention, you're trying to lecture me on a hegemony I fought for years, while you sat idly by. Yes, that hegemony? Please tell me more about it, expert. I don't need to be reminded of who was in it, as I am well aware. The past doesn't matter, no grudges should be held. Only the present matters. Thank you for also attempting to diagnose me. Again, it is well appreciated. I think I'll be okay though.

Try again, junior.
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6.4 million NS is not "overwhelming odds". I'm sorry bub, it just isn't. I know numbers are confusing, but try to take them slow. Also work in your reading comprehension needs improvement. I never said you were on the losing side. In fact, I didn't know, nor care what side you are or were on. I was referring to the losing side, but if you're so incompetent that you assume you're losing at any given time, who am I to crush your moronic, raving dreams? In terms of the hegemony, I know full-well the ins and outs of it. As a founding member of CDT, I can assure you I know what it was like to be a part of it. And when said hegemony screwed over my alliance (Europa) at her birth, we decided we were going to stop getting stomped for their idiocy and we moved away. Forcibly, but still.

I agree with you, obsessing over the past is ridiculous. I for one am sick of people claiming they deserve respect for their part in things like Vox. As far as I'm concerned, the only one who can still claim credit for that and be respected in the least is Schatt, and that's because he's freaking Schatt. Not trying to inflate his ego or anything, but he's Schatt.

If you'd prefer a legitimate discussion without you making irrational, childish and downright retarded assumptions, I'm game.