Monster Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='ADude' timestamp='1337043121' post='2967535'] I'm not an econ god or anything (Maybe Roq should proof read this ) but is 21k tech a month good when you have 141 nations in selling range? When you figure that when dealing 3/100 and assuming that 100 (allowing for 41 ghosts/people not selling and you have the buyers to cover all of these [size="1"]which you do[/size]) are actively dealing 5 slots (250 every 10 days after paying for 2 cycles) that's 50k tech in one month.. Lets assume that you are selling 3/50 and assuming the same about your buyers/sellers (100 active out of 141 sellers and they are actively dealing 5 slots) that's 25k tech once they pay it off, with 3/50 you get less obviously because its half and your in a Pay > Tech > Pay again cycle so you can't get the second batch of tech out. Still lets see, you are probably right about the slot usage not being part of an alliance growth rate because tech has no effect on NS and those sellers won't be able to buy anything with those millions from tech deal (especially from 3/50) right? So yea... You win on that I guess because you guys imported 85k tech in four months :thumbsup: Grats, that's quite an accomplishment. It's just too bad that your smaller nations aren't participating in that much because, well they can't afford to [/quote] Spot on. No it's not that great, and your analysis is accurate. Nothing to brag about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1337061688' post='2967623'] Spot on. No it's not that great, and your analysis is accurate. Nothing to brag about. [/quote] Except GATOs ghost problem hasnt been fully taken into account. Try halving those number of sellers he listed. Then lets take onto account thst a recruiting alliance like GATO always will get members whom go inactive after a few weeks, if that. Try halving again. Then maybe you have an a better picture of what our internal seller action really is. Now I know we sre nowhere near the top of the econ chain but for what we are able to actually work with.....not as bad as you make out are we? Edited May 15, 2012 by magicninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1337067675' post='2967636'] Except GATOs ghost problem hasnt been fully taken into account. Try halving those number of sellers he listed. [/quote] You have nearly 70 ghosts? Or is this one of those numbers you randomly came up with like "GOD only declared like 4 wars on us"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikita Ilyich Lenin Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Congratulations to our allies in TLR for making such a milestone achievement! Rush, Jgoods, i'm really impressed. That merger really took off! p.s. all jokes aside good job tLR, onward to 2 million etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='crazyemolad' timestamp='1337023069' post='2967413'] Always a big thanks to IRON, to bad it cant be diplomatically. [/quote] Just be grateful we allow your continued existence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyemolad Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1337077066' post='2967665'] Just be grateful we allow your continued existence [/quote] I love how you actually think you allow us to have an alliance. You really power tripping that much? Hasn't your mother taught you if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all? We should get together sometime for a drink or 12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='crazyemolad' timestamp='1337078661' post='2967668'] I love how you actually think you allow us to have an alliance. You really power tripping that much? Hasn't your mother taught you if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all? We should get together sometime for a drink or 12. [/quote] I love the way you continually suck up to us for better relations and the way you make announcements about mediocre achievements. I love the way you treaty the most inept alliances on bob and that you are always getting rolled. But most of all I love the way that every announcement you make is overshadowed by jokes about your acronym belonging to a more competent alliance. And no she never taught me that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrash Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1337068431' post='2967638'] You have nearly 70 ghosts? [/quote] Sounds like a job for MK, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyemolad Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Hey, what can I say. They are mediocre achievements in your eyes. To us and our friends they are a step in the right direction. We value quality over quantity. Also we took a hard hit in the last war, but it was worth every pixel for our allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernhard Klein Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) [quote] I love the way you continually suck up to us for better relations and the way you make announcements about mediocre achievements. I love the way you treaty the most inept alliances on bob and that you are always getting rolled. But most of all I love the way that every announcement you make is overshadowed by jokes about your acronym belonging to a more competent alliance.[/quote] MCRABT, I can't speak for everyone in the alliance, but my sentiment is that we are not a bunch of people that seek power on Bob. We all come from decently successful backgrounds and are content as a community through which to grow and interact. We sometimes treaty out of friendship, something that will rarely get us power. Of course, there will always be those who cite the yoke of "Francoism" and social Darwinism as reasons why we should be stamped out of existence. But why should we, when only three or four of the original ex-IRON members remain in our ranks, remain the centerpiece for such scorn? I'm sure you have your reasons, but consider for a moment the amount of additional support IRON & co. could have if she didn't threaten the total annihilation of groups that she does not agree with. Perhaps you don't want our support: I suppose that if I were in your position, I would not feel any inclination to be benevolent toward all those beneath me. I just hope history does not repeat itself while you stamp on our faces. On a less morbid note, thanks again Edited May 15, 2012 by BKlein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IYIyTh Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) Did everyone's balls fall off so hard that they're picking on The Last Republic to make them feel good about themselves? Is this that whole "fitting in thing," where being an ass, without tact and generally unnecessarily rude is how one fits in with a certain group of people that I never understood? Congrats. Also outclassed by tLR? Yeeeesh. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img] Edited May 15, 2012 by IYIyTh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoADarthCyfe6 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='BloodFury' timestamp='1337041164' post='2967522'] Ohh lord, I thought you were seriously trying to pretend that you were tough, then I read your AA. You sir are a funny man. I congratulate you on making me laugh. [/quote] Congratulations, you're an idiot. [quote name='ADude' timestamp='1337043121' post='2967535'] [b]I'm not an econ god or anything[/b] (Maybe Roq should proof read this ) but is 21k tech a month good when you have 141 nations in selling range? When you figure that when dealing 3/100 and assuming that 100 (allowing for 41 ghosts/people not selling and you have the buyers to cover all of these [size="1"]which you do[/size]) are actively dealing 5 slots (250 every 10 days after paying for 2 cycles) that's 50k tech in one month.. Lets assume that you are selling 3/50 and assuming the same about your buyers/sellers (100 active out of 141 sellers and they are actively dealing 5 slots) that's 25k tech once they pay it off, with 3/50 you get less obviously because its half and your in a Pay > Tech > Pay again cycle so you can't get the second batch of tech out. Still lets see, you are probably right about the slot usage not being part of an alliance growth rate because tech has no effect on NS and those sellers won't be able to buy anything with those millions from tech deal (especially from 3/50) right? So yea... You win on that I guess because you guys imported 85k tech in four months :thumbsup: Grats, that's quite an accomplishment. It's just too bad that your smaller nations aren't participating in that much because, well they can't afford to [/quote] Most importantly the highlighted part, I am an Econ guy and I know how everything works. First off, you seemed to have confused overall growth with aid slot percentage. There's more to an alliance's overall growth rate then to simply just Economics/Finance. Magicninja never once pointed out that The Last Republic had a small aid slot percentage until you accused him of it. A Small aid slot percentage is obviously going to not give a significant addition to overall growth, but an alliance can still grow without it in many ways. These other ways include purchasing Infrastructure, Military, Land, and recruitment of new nations. A growth rate is what you find on the "Alliance History Chart" which gives you an accurate view on what is happening with the alliance over a 30 day period. Now to address what you said of GATO. I know what is and isn't our problem with our aid slot usage and it's something that has been like this for a while. This is something that cannot be fixed overnight and will take months of work. Us importing 85k Tech over the past 4 months is a fairly good accomplishment. Want to know why? Lets take a look at this, other alliances may have a larger slot usage in use because they have more of an active member base who will do tech deals. Ok, that's great but look at it a bit deeper and you will find that most of these deals are 3/50 deals. Almost anyone can get a 3/50 deal and it will take up two aid slots. The problem is it gets you half as much as tech (as you mentioned) but it stills eats up slots. We fill our slots with 3/100 deals which is going to get us more tech then those who do 3/50. So overall, while their slot usage may be more then ours, we are growing in overall tech more then they are. Overall, I would rather have a lower slot usage but grow overall tech then do have a higher slot usage and have to deal with 3/50 deals. We have potential to work with if we get these deals to be 3/100 and we will be growing at a much faster pace then before. Could our numbers be better? Absolutely. But we have more to work with because we do 3/100 deals. Will our numbers be better? In the long run, I believe they will grow a much faster pace. It's going to take time and a lot of effort to correct our problems, but they will be corrected and we are focusing on those problems now. So don't give me some pile of rubbish saying that we are bad when half of the other alliances around Bob have a bit higher slot usage then us when we are acquiring more tech then they are. Overall, what matters is that we add to our total tech because that's going to give our larger nations the more power to push then others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCRABT Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='BKlein' timestamp='1337090811' post='2967704'] MCRABT, I can't speak for everyone in the alliance, but my sentiment is that we are not a bunch of people that seek power on Bob. We all come from decently successful backgrounds and are content as a community through which to grow and interact. We sometimes treaty out of friendship, something that will rarely get us power. Of course, there will always be those who cite the yoke of "Francoism" and social Darwinism as reasons why we should be stamped out of existence. But why should we, when only three or four of the original ex-IRON members remain in our ranks, remain the centerpiece for such scorn? I'm sure you have your reasons, but consider for a moment the amount of additional support IRON & co. could have if she didn't threaten the total annihilation of groups that she does not agree with. Perhaps you don't want our support: I suppose that if I were in your position, I would not feel any inclination to be benevolent toward all those beneath me. I just hope history does not repeat itself while you stamp on our faces. On a less morbid note, thanks again [/quote] You seem like a reasonable fellow. tLR knows exactly what my problem is, the ex-IRON members who poached from within our ranks and defecated all over a community they claimed to love are still in your government. The same people who burned the olive branch I handed to them even after your departure still hold the reins. I didn't threaten you guys with inhalation, that would be a waste of time, with that said I'll reserve the right to blow a little smoke up your ass every now and then. We don't want,care or expect your support. [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1337091192' post='2967706'] Did everyone's balls fall off so hard that they're picking on The Last Republic to make them feel good about themselves? Is this that whole "fitting in thing," where being an ass, without tact and generally unnecessarily rude is how one fits in with a certain group of people that I never understood? Congrats. Also outclassed by tLR? Yeeeesh. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif[/img] [/quote] Yes because me stating my dislike for tLR and giving them a hard time is some sort of revelation As a general rule of a thumb I believe politeness is a given and respect is earned; however those who spit in your face are deserving of neither. Edited May 15, 2012 by MCRABT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADude Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1337067675' post='2967636'] Except GATOs ghost problem hasnt been fully taken into account. Try halving those number of sellers he listed. Then lets take onto account thst a recruiting alliance like GATO always will get members whom go inactive after a few weeks, if that. Try halving again. Then maybe you have an a better picture of what our internal seller action really is. Now I know we sre nowhere near the top of the econ chain but for what we are able to actually work with.....not as bad as you make out are we? [/quote] Ok, so who's fault is it for recruiting like that? Recruit > adjust/train > Recruit again. Not being able to field 100 sellers out of 141 is pretty bad, sorry but it's true. [quote]Most importantly the highlighted part, I am an Econ guy and I know how everything works. First off, you seemed to have confused overall growth with aid slot percentage. There's more to an alliance's overall growth rate then to simply just Economics/Finance. Magicninja never once pointed out that The Last Republic had a small aid slot percentage until you accused him of it. A Small aid slot percentage is obviously going to not give a significant addition to overall growth, but an alliance can still grow without it in many ways. These other ways include purchasing Infrastructure, Military, Land, and recruitment of new nations. A growth rate is what you find on the "Alliance History Chart" which gives you an accurate view on what is happening with the alliance over a 30 day period. [/quote] [quote]]Most importantly the highlighted part, I am an Econ guy and I know how everything works. First off, you seemed to have confused overall growth with aid slot percentage.[/quote] They are directly related.. [quote]There's more to an alliance's overall growth rate then to simply just Economics/Finance. Magicninja never once pointed out that The Last Republic had a small aid slot percentage until you accused him of it.[/quote] I never said that, I pretty much asked how well GATO was growing without much aid flowing into the alliance. [quote]A Small aid slot percentage is obviously going to not give a significant addition to overall growth,[/quote] Oh no, not at all. Aid only allows small nations to buy the things they need to grow, I also almost think that you forgot tech deals in NS as well [quote] but an alliance can still grow without it in many ways. These other ways include purchasing Infrastructure, Military, Land, and [b]recruitment of new nations[/b].[/quote] They can't afford [u]any[/u] of those things if they don't have deals so yes your slot usage is directly related to growth. [quote]Now to address what you said of GATO. I know what is and isn't our problem with our aid slot usage and it's something that has been like this for a while. This is something that cannot be fixed overnight and will take months of work. Us importing 85k Tech over the past 4 months is a fairly good accomplishment. Want to know why? Lets take a look at this, other alliances may have a larger slot usage in use because they have more of an active member base who will do tech deals. Ok, that's great but look at it a bit deeper and you will find that most of these deals are 3/50 deals. Almost anyone can get a 3/50 deal and it will take up two aid slots. The problem is it gets you half as much as tech (as you mentioned) but it stills eats up slots. We fill our slots with 3/100 deals which is going to get us more tech then those who do 3/50. So overall, while their slot usage may be more then ours, we are growing in overall tech more then they are. Overall, I would rather have a lower slot usage but grow overall tech then do have a higher slot usage and have to deal with 3/50 deals. We have potential to work with if we get these deals to be 3/100 and we will be growing at a much faster pace then before. [/quote] [quote]Now to address what you said of GATO. I know what is and isn't our problem with our aid slot usage and it's something that has been like this for a while. This is something that cannot be fixed overnight and will take months of work.[/quote] You are the oldest AA in the game, that's not an excuse. [quote]Want to know why? Lets take a look at this, other alliances may have a larger slot usage in use because they have more of an active member base who will do tech deals. Ok, that's great but look at it a bit deeper and you will find that most of these deals are 3/50 deals. Almost anyone can get a 3/50 deal and it will take up two aid slots. The problem is it gets you half as much as tech (as you mentioned) but it stills eats up slots. We fill our slots with 3/100 deals which is going to get us more tech then those who do 3/50. So overall, while their slot usage may be more then ours, we are growing in overall tech more then they are. Overall, I would rather have a lower slot usage but grow overall tech then do have a higher slot usage and have to deal with 3/50 deals. We have potential to work with if we get these deals to be 3/100 and we will be growing at a much faster pace then before. [/quote] What I got out of all of this is that you can't find 3/100's and that is somehow not your fault. If you can do one of the following. a: Make what active seller staff you have sell 3/100 (you have to have at least 50 right?) b: Go out and actively look for 3/100, its not that hard.. I can give you a list of AA's to talk to if you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoADarthCyfe6 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='ADude' timestamp='1337100958' post='2967728'] Ok, so who's fault is it for recruiting like that? Recruit > adjust/train > Recruit again. Not being able to field 100 sellers out of 141 is pretty bad, sorry but it's true.[/quote] It's getting people to do things that's the problem. Easier said then done. [quote] They are directly related..[/quote] I said that, I also said that you are confusing aid slot percentage with overall growth. There's so much more to that then the aid slot percentage. [quote] I never said that, I pretty much asked how well GATO was growing without much aid flowing into the alliance.[/quote] Yes you did. [quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1337002076' post='2967334'] Nearly two years to get to million.....replace jgoods imo. That is beyond pathetic. You sjould be cancelled on and left to raiders since you are basically not even a real alliance with a growth rate like that. [/quote] No where does it state anything about Aid Slot usage. [quote name='ADude' timestamp='1337013320' post='2967366'] TLR recently just shot back up even beyond what they had post war(IIRC), that could be credited to something like wanting to keep a smaller member base at first and than changing the plan. [b]Also if !@#$ econ makes an alliance not an alliance[/b], is GATO in that category? Because as I see it with slot usage like that your not really growing anything besides what you recruit... [/quote] Where on earth did this statement come from then??? Magicninja never once stated anything about Aid slot usage about The Last Republic. [quote] Oh no, not at all. Aid only allows small nations to buy the things they need to grow, I also almost think that you forgot tech deals in NS as well [/quote] 50 Tech = 250 NS added. 3 mil given to smaller nations can be used for warchests and purchasing infras and other important things. What did I miss? [quote] They can't afford [u]any[/u] of those things if they don't have deals so yes your slot usage is directly related to growth.[/quote] Not if they don't want to do tech deals. Saying how people should be doing tech deals while actually getting them to do it is two entirely different things. [quote] You are the oldest AA in the game, that's not an excuse.[/quote] Who says it was an excuse? It's a fact, its going to take time to correct. [quote] What I got out of all of this is that you can't find 3/100's and that is somehow not your fault. If you can do one of the following. a: Make what active seller staff you have sell 3/100 (you have to have at least 50 right?) b: Go out and actively look for 3/100, its not that hard.. I can give you a list of AA's to talk to if you like. [/quote] Then you didn't get much out of all of this at all. I said of the two scenario's, I'd rather be in the one we are currently in now because we have so much more to work with. Edited May 15, 2012 by SoADarthCyfe6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADude Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1337101704' post='2967732'] It's getting people to do things that's the problem. Easier said then done. [/quote] [quote]Not if they don't want to do tech deals. Saying how people should be doing tech deals while actually getting them to do it is two entirely different things. [/quote] I can understand 10 to 20 people, but on with that many maybe you should..do something about it? If they aren't willing to grow maybe you should kick them out? Edit* That would probably help with the activity issue. [quote] I said that, I also said that you are confusing aid slot percentage with overall growth. There's so much more to that then the aid slot percentage. Yes you did. No where does it state anything about Aid Slot usage. Where on earth did this statement come from then??? Magicninja never once stated anything about Aid slot usage about The Last Republic. [/quote] Econ = Growth, that's everything I have been saying here.. Also if you didn't catch that I'm saying that Tech deals and slot usage = econ [quote]Who says it was an excuse? It's a fact, its going to take time to correct. [/quote] By now you should have something efficient set up. Edited May 15, 2012 by ADude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoADarthCyfe6 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='ADude' timestamp='1337102286' post='2967733'] I can understand 10 to 20 people, but on with that many maybe you should..do something about it? If they aren't willing to grow maybe you should kick them out? Edit* That would probably help with the activity issue.[/quote] Yet you just said you were not an Econ guy so what you are saying is fairly baseless. [quote] Econ = Growth, that's everything I have been saying here.. Also if you didn't catch that I'm saying that Tech deals and slot usage = econ [/quote] You're wrong, it's part of growth and that's what I have been saying. [quote] By now you should have something efficient set up. [/quote] If you further feel the need to comment on our internal affairs without any sort of knowledge of our internal affairs, feel free, it's only making you look foolish. If you wish to understand more, contact me on IRC, as for now this thread has been derailed. My apologies to The Last Republic and congratulations again on reaching 1 mil ns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockhunter Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 woohoo! o/ TLR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyemolad Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1337098481' post='2967725'] tLR knows exactly what my problem is, the ex-IRON members who poached from within our ranks and defecated all over a community they claimed to love are still in your government. [/quote] Hmm, Not me [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1337098481' post='2967725'] The same people who burned the olive branch I handed to them even after your departure still hold the reins. [/quote] I left IRON to join OBR, apparently there was a confusion when I left but it was all squared away with Q. ( I still have the messages ) Still curious as to why I am banned from IRON forums. [quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1337098481' post='2967725'] I didn't threaten you guys with inhalation, that would be a waste of time, with that said I'll reserve the right to blow a little smoke up your ass every now and then. We don't want,care or expect your support. [/quote] When you say it like that, i'm okay with it. Community is better than support sometimes, I still consider some of the IRON members friends and will until I don't talk to them anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrash Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1337091192' post='2967706'] Is this that whole "fitting in thing," where being an ass, without tact and generally unnecessarily rude is how one fits in with a certain group of people that I never understood? [/quote] You hit the nail on the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADude Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) [quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1337104097' post='2967742'] Yet you just said you were not an Econ guy so what you are saying is fairly baseless. [/quote] I said [quote]I'm not an econ [size="4"][b][u]god[/u][/b][/size] or anything.[/quote] http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=110862&view=findpost&p=2967535 I do have enough econ experience to know what I'm doing though and its also very common knowledge that if you have someone not participating without a valid reason (why I said 10 to 20 being the "allowed") that person generally is "let go", I'm just surprised that hasn't happened on a mass scale if what you and Ninja say is true. Edit: I do have enough econ experience to know that of what I suggested of GATO is possble. [quote]If you further feel the need to comment on our internal affairs without any sort of knowledge of our internal affairs, feel free, it's only making you look foolish. If you wish to understand more, contact me on IRC, as for now this thread has been derailed. My apologies to The Last Republic and congratulations again on reaching 1 mil ns. [/quote] I'll do that sometime, but yes grats to TLR and all that. Edited May 15, 2012 by ADude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbies0310 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Good job [b]t[/b]LR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodFury Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 [quote name='SoADarthCyfe6' timestamp='1337091998' post='2967712'] Congratulations, you're an idiot. [/quote] GATO wit and intelligence at it's very finest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywall Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Darth do me a personal favor and refrain from posting on here for the next 2 months Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1337081183' post='2967674'] Sounds like a job for MK, eh? [/quote] Indeed. I'm sure there are some other people who wouldn't mind [i]ghost busting[/i] for them. Now I'll have to be extra careful when spying away their tech sellers tech. Don't want to accidentally hit a ghost. Edited May 16, 2012 by Omniscient1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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