The Story Thus Far

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Micheal Malone' timestamp='1324615607' post='2884568']
I can't believe I read this entire thread, and not one mention of NG... we need to go to war even more frequently?
[/quote]

Hit someone worth while and then you'll get a mention.

[Krack]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1324611170' post='2884482']
I'm not reading the entire thread to see if anyone else has said this, but what about Grub and Xiph? They fit antagonist fairly well. What exactly did the others do differently that Xiph and Grub didn't? Just so we know if the future whensomeone wants to play antagonist.
[/quote]

Neither one of them ever had any power or influence. Anybody can [i]play[/i] antagonist; you actually have to be able to do something to [i]be[/i] an antagonist.

[Great Lord Moth]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1324611939' post='2884492']
I simply believe that SF and C&G weren't very good bad guys which is why moralism became outdated.
[/quote]

It's easy to not be a good bad guy when you're not trying to be one in the first place.

[Krack]

[quote name='Micheal Malone' timestamp='1324615607' post='2884568']
I can't believe I read this entire thread, and not one mention of NG... we need to go to war even more frequently?
[/quote]

It's because you're irrelevant. You're not a power player on either side (and make no mistake, the "sides" have been the same for about 5 years now - occassionally someone switches sides, but they are pretty much the same) and you were created out of two alliances that were never a power player on either side. Being a meatshield and dutifully marching off to war does not make you a mover & shaker; all it makes you is Valhalla's replacement when Mjolnir takes it's beating next spring break (summer at the latest).

EDIT: TPF was a toadie alliance. PC split off to do it's own thing. It did nothing of note. It absorbed iFOK and basically became TPF; you once again are a toadie alliance. They don't write books about the toadies.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Krack

[TehChron]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1324625594' post='2884707']
It's because you're irrelevant. You're not a power player on either side (and make no mistake, the "sides" have been the same for about 5 years now - occassionally someone switches sides, but they are pretty much the same) and you were created out of two alliances that were never a power player on either side. Being a meatshield and dutifully marching off to war does not make you a mover & shaker; all it makes you is Valhalla's replacement when Mjolnir takes it's beating next spring break (summer at the latest).

EDIT: TPF was a toadie alliance. PC split off to do it's own thing. It did nothing of note. It absorbed iFOK and basically became TPF; you once again are a toadie alliance. They don't write books about the toadies.
[/quote]
lol

Wo-how-ow-wooooow.

You know what? I'm not even going to start off on the numerous things you've gotten wrong in this comment and your previous one, and am just going to let the people who you're actually lobbing stuff at handle this.

This is pretty funny. Good stuff, I'm enjoying it.

[Krack]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1324626083' post='2884713']
lol

Wo-how-ow-wooooow.

You know what? I'm not even going to start off on the numerous things you've gotten wrong in this comment and your previous one, and am just going to let the people who you're actually lobbing stuff at handle this.

This is pretty funny. Good stuff, I'm enjoying it.
[/quote]

Well you've certainly shown yourself to be quite an expert over the previous three pages. You've got it all figured out.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1324625594' post='2884707']
It's because you're irrelevant. You're not a power player on either side (and make no mistake, the "sides" have been the same for about 5 years now - occassionally someone switches sides, but they are pretty much the same) and you were created out of two alliances that were never a power player on either side. Being a meatshield and dutifully marching off to war does not make you a mover & shaker; all it makes you is Valhalla's replacement when Mjolnir takes it's beating next spring break (summer at the latest).

EDIT: TPF was a toadie alliance. PC split off to do it's own thing. It did nothing of note. It absorbed iFOK and basically became TPF; you once again are a toadie alliance. They don't write books about the toadies.
[/quote]

Yea guys be more like Aloha. You could...ummm well....you could....ummm.....Have you guys ever done anything besides lose your entire alliance membership except for one person?

[TehChron]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1324626441' post='2884717']
Well you've certainly shown yourself to be quite an expert over the previous three pages. You've got it all figured out.
[/quote]
Sarcasm works better when you're implying something that is actually ironic, rather than simple snapping.

And I, by no means, pretend to have it all figured out. But I think I know what I'm talking about better than you, and certainly don't assume that I'm right despite not knowing what I'm talking about.

Once again: Good stuff. Keep it up. It's pretty funny.

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='Krack' timestamp='1324625594' post='2884707']
It's because you're irrelevant. You're not a power player on either side (and make no mistake, the "sides" have been the same for about 5 years now - occassionally someone switches sides, but they are pretty much the same) and you were created out of two alliances that were never a power player on either side. Being a meatshield and dutifully marching off to war does not make you a mover & shaker; all it makes you is Valhalla's replacement when Mjolnir takes it's beating next spring break (summer at the latest).

EDIT: TPF was a toadie alliance. PC split off to do it's own thing. It did nothing of note. It absorbed iFOK and basically became TPF; you once again are a toadie alliance. They don't write books about the toadies.
[/quote]

Ribbit, ribbit, ribbit.... you're still dead.

[Daimos]

I think the difference between now and Pre-karma is the lack of fear.

Pre-Karma NPO created fun through fear. In an atmosphere of being entertained we enjoy being scared.

[Doitzel]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1324611939' post='2884492']
There was no rise of moralism. Moralism saw its peak before and during Karma. Afterwards, when NPO had been cast down, everyone somewhat stood around wondering what to do. Rather than recognising that the boredom was due to the end of an era, there was a great backlash against moralism, which was supposedly 'killing the game' because it prevented people from 'doing interesting stuff'. This was of course a myth because by this point everyone had turned on moralism. Vladimir would say that the usefulness of moralism had run its course and thus it was abandoned. I am less cynical. I simply believe that SF and C&G weren't very good bad guys which is why moralism became outdated. That didn't stop NPO from playing the victim of course, except that because of their history most people saw through the !@#$%^&*. It was only newer players who hadn't been around to experience their rule who got sucked into it.
[/quote]
Moralism certainly was real, just not for the people to whom it was attributed. It simply became the next target of ire because those that usurped its message dropped it after the war and let those who fell in its name control the conversation -- hence why the word is used so derisively now. Obviously it's no longer a factor and oh, look, things are more boring than ever; when moralism was at its most popular things were close to the most interesting they'd ever been.

The community is stupid, basically.

[quote name='Micheal Malone' timestamp='1324615607' post='2884568']
I can't believe I read this entire thread, and not one mention of NG... we need to go to war even more frequently?
[/quote]
Quick! If you look up now you might just see the point!

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1324653968' post='2884864']
The community is stupid, basically.
[/quote]
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!
[hr]
I paraphrase myself from last week's "CN is dead" thread as an expert in the field: Until alliances develop true ideologies and then base actions and ally-relationships on those ideologies, you will all remain boring and your treaty mess will prevent fast-paced action. The post-Karma Era ended months ago, Chron, as the sun set on the timeframe for alliances to take advantage of the freedom afforded them in the vaccuum left by the devolution of Continuum.
Far from your claim otherwise, it is a lack of creativity and an adherence to 2007 modes of play which have brought us to this point[i] once more[/i].

Edited December 23, 2011 by Schattenmann

[TehChron]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1324654212' post='2884868']
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

I paraphrase myself from last week's "CN is dead" thread as an expert in the field: Until alliances develop true ideologies and then base actions and ally-relationships on those ideologies, you will all remain boring and your treaty mess will prevent fast-paced action. The post-Karma Era ended months ago, Chron, as the sun set on the timeframe for alliances to take advantage of the freedom afforded them in the vaccuum left by the devolution of Continuum.
Far from your claim otherwise, it is a lack of creativity and an adherence to 2007 modes of play which have brought us to this point[i] once more[/i].
[/quote]
People have attempted to be creative, they just haven't done a very good job of it.

I consider competency to be paramount in creating an interesting narrative. Moreover, why do you think post-Karma ended months ago? What exactly served as the closing of that period's curtains in your eyes?

[Stonewall Jaxon]

For a while I thought of comparing Karma to the Protestant Reformation, but then any and all arguments in the game stopped being based on principle so I gave up on that.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1324653968' post='2884864']
Moralism certainly was real, just not for the people to whom it was attributed. It simply became the next target of ire because those that usurped its message dropped it after the war and let those who fell in its name control the conversation -- hence why the word is used so derisively now. Obviously it's no longer a factor and oh, look, things are more boring than ever; when moralism was at its most popular things were close to the most interesting they'd ever been.

The community is stupid, basically.
[/quote]
So basically you blame the death of moralism on the people who never bought into it in the first place. Why did you grand Voxian crusaders drop the torch after victory? Why should people who don't support an ideology keep it on life support just to provide a counterpoint to their own views? Perhaps you should reflect on the failure of moralism in light of the post-Karma choices of the moralists: that of deletion or obscurity in micros.

[Ardus]

There is no alliance that can afford the kind of cartoonish villainy you people want. The moment somebody prances about like a full-blown, clear as day antagonist they'll be abandoned by allies and murdered by the world.

[berbers]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1324677746' post='2885083']
There is no alliance that can afford the kind of cartoonish villainy you people want. The moment somebody prances about like a full-blown, clear as day antagonist they'll be abandoned by allies and murdered by the world.
[/quote]

MK does enjoy a good prance now and again though.

[Sephiroth]

After the Unjust War, The Citadel formed as an elite bloc independent from the power structure. With my nation having been created as the Unjust War started, the atmosphere for the game had always been for me NPO dominating the game and rolling alliances at will, as most major alliances tried buddying up with them to avoid getting rolled next. NPO represented everything I resent, an overly large government with to much control who abuses its power.

Citadel/Q - TOP convinces OG and Gremlins to join Q with them, the FCC is told after the others and doesn't join. FCC is unhappy with other members having loyalties to another bloc now and remains opposed to Q.

With Citadel attached to NPO strongly through Q, as well as every other major bloc, there is nobody who can be a match for NPO. Former Unjust Path alliances like MK are alliances who are isolated by NPO and allies by pressuring alliances not to sign treaties with them.

When FAN gets terms from NPO, in the FCC nations pledge over $100m in aid to begin being sent to FAN immediatly after they finish their terms. NPO declares on FAN a few days before the terms would of expired, the christmas rebuild aid present to FAN ends up not happening and FCC is not happy with their friends in FAN being attacked and kept at constant war. FAN being kept at perma-war was just one of the reasons for wanting the downfall of NPO to come.

With me pushing very hard in the FCC for it in order to align ourselves less NPO, FCC signs a MDP with MK, who is known to be anti-NPO to anyone who could connect the dots despite what MK says otherwise. TOP & OG is deeply against it and make a huge fuss over it. Gremlins are cautiously supportive, as they had been considering relations of their own with MK.

noCB War Occurs - With all of Citadel in Q mostly with TOP and OG assisting NPO's side in the war, the FCC is left with allies on both sides and Citadel asking FCC to stay neutral. Despite recently being promoted to High Court Judge, I resign from FCC and join MK for the nuclear war that ensues.

After the war ends and I help with reps for a few cycles, me and some other former FCC members form an alliance called Onyx Hand. It has a triumvirate government with me holding the one of the triumvir positions as Executor, who is in charge of war. I organize the military structure for the alliance having gained experience fighting NPO and VE as a member of MK in the noCB War.

It is throughout this 6 months of Onyx Hand existing that FCC becomes mostly inactive, Gremlins leave Q and there is a lot of arguing between pro-NPO (TOP+OG) and anti-NPO (Gremlins+Umbrella) alliances in Citadel. When I become King of FCC after merging Onyx Hand back in, it shifts the anti-NPO alliances to 3 vs 2. The FCC more than doubled in size to 1.6m in less than 6 months in time for the Karma War. With the FCC military organized under my new system and the priority of getting as many members to have MP as possible through internal aid programs, when the Karma War came leading the FCC I declare war on IRON in the war that finally brought about the end of NPO's reign. NPO who had ruled with an ironfist for as long as I had been playing and as I had described to a friend previously what I considered the "end boss of the game". For me winning cybernations was defeating NPO in a world where the common tactic among most alliances was to ally NPO to be on the winning side. I saw no challenge in that and chose to win not by allying the strongest power, but defeating it.

How did NPO lose despite being allied to members of Citadel, MHA and most major alliances? Citadel had started organizing a power bloc meant to be a counter balance to NPO, which Citadel invited various allies to Citadel allainces who weren't quite members of Citadel. This included alliances like Fark, MHA, FOK and Sparta, along with FCC, Umbrella, Gremlins and TOP invited to the planning forum. Everyone was ready to sign the bloc into action except TOP, who still had loyalty to NPO. Eventually when NPO declared the war which started the Karma War, the new side was already formed to counter them who just hadn't put the alliance in bloc treaty form yet. VOLTRON likely would of been the bloc, but once NPO was taken down it was agreed by potential signatories it would no longer be needed and to similiar to Q when a counter balance to Q was no longer needed.

When the Karma War started TOP was still conflicted, but with the rest of Citadel declaring on NPO's side and the fall of Q immenent, TOP sided with the majority of Citadel on the side of Karma. OG fought on the side of NPO, later Umbrella pushed for OG to be booted from Citadel which was the beginning of the end for the bloc.

After the Karma War I continued to be King of the FCC for around a year, but after NPO was beaten there was no more political maneuvering to do or enemies to beat. So every day became the same boring thing with no threats to prepare for, as everyone became less active with nothing going on. The only bloc somewhat hostile toward Citadel was Frostbite, so to increase activity I started getting an idea on how the idea would fly. Those in Citadel saw them as no real threat, except NpO considered somewhat hostile due to the noCB War and TOP's involvement. Eventually seeing that I was considering warmongering, someone in the alliance made a big push for me to be removed. A vote was held and the alliance voted against removal, although with someone else wanting to step up as leader I eventually stepped down.

After this I just stayed on my own AA for a while ignoring recruitment messages, until I got one from Ivan Moldavi asking to join. I respond that I'm not interested in an alliance where I can't advance to having a say in what the alliance does, he responds by explaining the system of advancement within NSO and that I could eventually challenge him for his position someday. I end up joining as I'm impressed by Ivan's recruitment skill and how pleasant they were towards me when just not long ago I had been warmongering in their thread and on the other side of the treaty web.

After joining NSO is when my bridges were brunt with MK, as MK hated NSO enough that it turned most of them against me that I would join an alliance they saw as an enemy. MK expressing dislike for me in their posts after I joined NSO caused me to develop a dislike for MK, which got stronger when I ended up at war with GOONS and MK sanctioned me for them.

In NSO I advanced to a Sith Marauder of Lies, although later when challanging for Sith Master of Lies I ended up running against Dilber and lost. With Ivan having left the alliance and NSO having peaced out the war, I end up leaving the alliance to assist IRON/TORN/DAWN who were still being kept at war. It was after this I never joined another alliance and just formed my own doing as I please without worrying about political ramifications, just enjoying the war system having already completed all the political goals I ever had.

Now I'm a member of CA, which is my first I've really joined since NSO and FCC before then. Although my time after I left FCC can all be considered retirement, as it was when I stopped trying to play the political aspect and focused on the game mechanics with the war system to keep me interested.

Problem with CN is we have to many alliances and leaders who have the mentality that winning means joining the winning the side, there are to few people who seek victory through defeating those who are on top rather than join them. Think Doomhouse and GOONS shouldn't be launching their pre-emptive wars and asking huge reps of anyone who counter declares on them? Then if you want to make CN interesting figure out how to bring about their defeat through political means that will turn the world against them when they make their next slip up. If you want to do something work towards a goal and find allies who also work towards it.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Methrage

[Ardus]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1324693620' post='2885278']
MK does enjoy a good prance now and again though.
[/quote]
Not nearly to the reckless extent that I would prefer. Unfortunately the same laws of physics that fell every other superpower apply to us, or so I'm told.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Ardus

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1324677746' post='2885083']
There is no alliance that can afford the kind of cartoonish villainy you people want. The moment somebody prances about like a full-blown, clear as day antagonist they'll be abandoned by allies and murdered by the world.
[/quote]

Or there's a mass member exodus.

See: Gremlins under Ramirus.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1324699455' post='2885357']
Not nearly to the reckless extent that I would prefer. Unfortunately the same laws of physics that fell every other superpower apply to us, or so I'm told.
[/quote]
The problem becomes, the very reason you're a super power is people allied around you to defeat NPO, who was seen as the bad guy. When you then start acting like a villain, those who allied you and were willing to follow you before see you becoming what they hate. If you don't do anything like MHA, then people find you boring and you aren't considered a superpower since you don't have the influence. Without any bad guys to go after like back when NPO actually was a threat to everyone, you then have to be bad to get any wars going.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1324677746' post='2885083']
There is no alliance that can afford the kind of cartoonish villainy you people want. The moment somebody prances about like a full-blown, clear as day antagonist they'll be abandoned by allies and murdered by the world.
[/quote]
I'm saying that using that as an excuse is indicative of the limitations of your own imagined approach.

If you can't find allies that are driven more by self-interest or loyalty (the latter of which I hear was the point of CnG), then you're clearly not suited for the role. So don't pursue it.

But just because you can't find a way to pull it off doesn't make it impossible. So please, refrain from the absolutist statements. Your approach just hasn't worked to keep anyone entertained, not even yourselves.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1324657772' post='2884905']
People have attempted to be creative, they just haven't done a very good job of it.[/quote]
I think you're being generous for no particular reason, or you're just repeating your point because it's your point. What was creative about signing a hundred treaties between SF and C&G? What was creative about forming PB? What was creative about rolling TPF for spying while they were at war? What was creative about ... anything that happened after Karma? This is an honest question; I'm old enough in the game to be jaded, and I don't remember everything that happens, but, honestly, I can't think of anything that struck me as creative in the past 3 years. There have been interesting developments, but nothing creative. [i]Ooh, another bloc! Oh! And now its members just signed 4 MDPs with alliances in another bloc! How marvelous! I say, why hasn't there been a war yet?[/i]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1324657772' post='2884905']I consider competency to be paramount in creating an interesting narrative. Moreover, why do you think post-Karma ended months ago? What exactly served as the closing of that period's curtains in your eyes?
[/quote]
For me, the post-Karma era ended with the formation of Pandora's Box. The post-Karma era was defined by its unprecedented freedom: of association, of sovereignty, of ideology, to declare war without bringing half the world in, to create any little alliance that popped into our heads, the closest to inter-alliance anarchy that we've been in a long time. But do cattle run free if the fence is torn down? No, though they may walk past the fence, they still behave as cattle. And so as the dust from the Karma War settled, alliances fell back into the Pax Pacifican mentalities. Pandora's Box and Doom House's formations coupled with the devolutions of C&G and SuperFriends (and later the subservience of PF and Mjolnir) have brought us full circle. Alliances, for so long used to defining themselves by association rather than internal identity, did not know what to do with themselves post-Karma, and they have been overjoyed to stampede back into the comfort of a fence now that it is up again. It is a product of lack of ambition, of self-confidence, and a reliance on outsourcing brains and victory. That is why I formed Cult of Justitia, it is why I will not quit on CoJ.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1324697081' post='2885315']
Problem with CN is we have to many alliances and leaders who have the mentality that winning means joining the winning the side, there are to few people who seek victory through defeating those who are on top rather than join them . . . Then if you want to make CN interesting figure out how to bring about their defeat through political means that will turn the world against them when they make their next slip up. If you want to do something work towards a goal and find allies who also work towards it.
[/quote]
Hear, hear!

[TehChron]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1324711114' post='2885487']
I think you're being generous for no particular reason, or you're just repeating your point because it's your point. What was creative about signing a hundred treaties between SF and C&G? What was creative about forming PB? What was creative about rolling TPF for spying while they were at war? What was creative about ... anything that happened after Karma? This is an honest question; I'm old enough in the game to be jaded, and I don't remember everything that happens, but, honestly, I can't think of anything that struck me as creative in the past 3 years. There have been interesting developments, but nothing creative. [i]Ooh, another bloc! Oh! And now its members just signed 4 MDPs with alliances in another bloc! How marvelous! I say, why hasn't there been a war yet?[/i][/quote] If I had to pin it down I'd say the former. I mean, the concept of Supergrievances could be construed as an attempt at creativity, you know, if the people at in the top political class were trying to outsource political antagonism while also maintaining their dominance.

PB and the TPF war were by no means creative. And Grub tried to be creative with BiPolar. I will give credit where it's due. He just failed at it. I'll also say the Knights of Ni! raid was original in it's open-faced audacity. And I'm sure that there are a dozen or so smaller examples that don't come to mind because they never really went anywhere.

But like I said, Im probably just being generous.

[quote]For me, the post-Karma era ended with the formation of Pandora's Box. The post-Karma era was defined by its unprecedented freedom: of association, of sovereignty, of ideology, to declare war without bringing half the world in, to create any little alliance that popped into our heads, the closest to inter-alliance anarchy that we've been in a long time. But do cattle run free if the fence is torn down? No, though they may walk past the fence, they still behave as cattle. And so as the dust from the Karma War settled, alliances fell back into the Pax Pacifican mentalities. Pandora's Box and Doom House's formations coupled with the devolutions of C&G and SuperFriends (and later the subservience of PF and Mjolnir) have brought us full circle. Alliances, for so long used to defining themselves by association rather than internal identity, did not know what to do with themselves post-Karma, and they have been overjoyed to stampede back into the comfort of a fence now that it is up again. It is a product of lack of ambition, of self-confidence, and a reliance on outsourcing brains and victory. That is why I formed Cult of Justitia, it is why I will not quit on CoJ.[/quote]The tragedy is that is actually a very reasonable perspective.

By that token, the only reason we haven't returned to the pre-karma era is because the role of antagonist has been left empty, and those who are in power now are too afraid of being rallied against should they attempt to take up the mantle. It may or may not be the one truth of the matter, but it's by no means an incorrect viewpoint.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1324712470' post='2885492']
PB and the TPF war were by no means creative. And Grub tried to be creative with BiPolar. I will give credit where it's due. He just failed at it. I'll also say the Knights of Ni! raid was original in it's open-faced audacity. And I'm sure that there are a dozen or so smaller examples that don't come to mind because they never really went anywhere.
[/quote]
I'm not sure the kind of backstabbing NpO used in trying to destroy TOP was as creative as completely foolish short term thinking. With that war giving TOP reason to crush NpO right now and for as long as they want, while also turning MK against NpO causing them to have no allies.