TOOL Announcement

[Penguin]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302550243' post='2688673']
This isn't about people and their predecessors, this is about the [i]people[/i] now taking shots at 'our side' (Haflinger, Alterego, HoT, etc) who tied themselves into what they complain about now. I mean, there's really nothing to complain about in forcing a natural seller alliance to sell some tech.

If those individuals want to come out and say they've changed, and they regret their past actions, then, eh, maybe they can be treated differently moving forward, but they still have no place to complain about others doing the same things they did in the past.

And to be honest, the world is not in a state where it is easy to change at the moment. To change it, you need the support of a large power base, and most of the alliances that are worth including in that power base do not share a moral agenda. You might disagree since we were just at war, but generally VE does its part for that, with fair terms when we do go to war and making sure we have a good reason before doing so. We deposed the old hegemony in Karma, but it turns out that there aren't enough alliances who subscribe to a strong moral code to keep that spirit together.

I fear we're getting off topic, though . TOOL was only ever a fringe member of the old hegemony grouping, and what we're talking about isn't that relevant to them.
[/quote]
Given the same evidence, I still don't reach the same conclusion you do. It seems you ought to be thrilled that so many of the alliances you defeated now take the mantle up themselves, even considering a sizable percentage of them are perhaps just saying it as propaganda and have not taken it to heart. That skepticism runs deeper than it needs, to the extent that you don't bother to name individuals but discount entire alliances over a checkered past and one or two outspoken members (recall that you called TOOL a hypocritical alliance, not Alterego a hypocritical poster). These reckless insults also strike at decent people with whom you might otherwise be able to forge lasting friendships and pass on some of your ideals like you once did to me. I don't mean to be hard you, Bob, but it upsets me to see you waste that potential when you could correct it by exercising just a little bit more care and showing just a hint more of the optimism you once had.

The truth isn't that a power base can't exist to drive the world closer to your ideals, but that so many happily trade in their idealism for pragmatism. Perhaps not such a bad thing in general, but if everyone tries too hard to be pragmatic at once they might grow disillusioned like you and really start to believe that the world is static.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1302552036' post='2688688']
Even if 3m/50 was the going rate (which it isn't), these are supposed to be reparations. The fact that they're actually [i]profitable[/i] for TOOL speaks volumes for "the new hegemony". Then again, 3m/150 deals would still have been, what, $500,000 profit from each deal? Give me a break.
[/quote]
They're only profitable if you limit yourself to scratching the surface of economics. TOOL has more than enough monetary supplies to rebuild themselves faster than they will with any rate of tech deals. In this day and age when most established alliances have an effectively limitless supply of cash, slot efficiency becomes the deciding factor. The payment will mitigate some of the costs, but the only way you could possibly conclude it will be [i]profitable[/i] for TOOL is if you take an extremely pessimistic view of their knowledge of economics. The optimist that I am, I do not.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Penguin

[NowaCorp]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1302552496' post='2688692']
This might come as a surprise to you but you and your allies are the core belligerents in this war of oppression. NPO and Legion are innocent victims of your aggressive actions against them. The idea they need to be punished for being the target of your unprovoked attack against them is a moronic suggestion.
[/quote]
The use of the word belligerent doesn't imply aggression but simply that they are party to the conflict. To paint us as the oppressors and NPO/Legion as innocent victims is specious at best. They're not being punished because we're evil; they're being punished because they lost.

Also, this thread should be a celebration of peace not hostile rhetoric. Please leave your incendiary choice of words at the door, and let TOOL rebuild their nations without being yoked to failed old-world alliances.

[the dakotans]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302545672' post='2688645']
It's quite a large headline number, but since TOOL is naturally a selling alliance with its current build, it takes some strong spin to make these terms look bad.
[/quote]

Now we did agree to these terms, so I don't think they're terrible but I'd like to mention that we're not a selling alliance. At one point this was true, however we no longer have that 6k ANS, and haven't for a couple years. We'd be more than happy to buy up the tech ourselves and would have a surplus of buyers in the end if we did so.

I agree with what Penguin said earlier when he stated the tech deals weren't a really good deal or a really bad one. We could have gotten better of course, but it could have been worse, easily.

[General Milienius]

That is quite a bit of tech but hey I am glad peace is breaking out lol

[Letum]

[quote name='NowaCorp' timestamp='1302551820' post='2688686']
I believe certain grievances must be addressed before a long standing peace can be achieved.
[/quote]

I was unaware that sitting alone for two years minding our own damn business caused other alliances to believe they have suffered a wrong.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1302550243' post='2688673']
If those individuals want to come out and say they've changed, and they regret their past actions, then, eh, maybe they can be treated differently moving forward, but they still have no place to complain about others doing the same things they did in the past.
[/quote]
Would you care to remind me again why exactly I have "no right" to point out injustice when I see it? Or is it that you just don't like being reminded of the crimes you are conducting?

[hr]
As a side note, to GOONS - I never hated you, until now. The massive volumes of uneducated, loud-mouthed nooblets talking out their asses is starting to really piss me off. Perhaps, I guess, if your goal was to come off as having the absolute stupidest member-base, and to run what little you had left of your reputation straight into the ground, I can see how this would achieve such illustrious goals as those. But for Admin's sake, I know those of you in charge of this crapfest have a couple of neurons to rub together, can you please gag and/or educate these children? At least make them tow party lines that can be vaguely supported by fact, instead of having them leave all over the place whatever creative little fecal nuggets they dream up on the spot? Please?

[tamerlane]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1302539397' post='2688602']

Regardless your point doesnt take the fact this world is shrinking and many sellers become buyers with none to replace them.
[/quote]

Thats not necessarily true! I hear red sphere's market is about to break open with a diverse offering of tech ventures.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302555695' post='2688731']
Would you care to remind me again why exactly I have "no right" to point out injustice when I see it? Or is it that you just don't like being reminded of the crimes you are conducting?

[hr]
As a side note, to GOONS - I never hated you, until now. The massive volumes of uneducated, loud-mouthed nooblets talking out their asses is starting to really piss me off. Perhaps, I guess, if your goal was to come off as having the absolute stupidest member-base, and to run what little you had left of your reputation straight into the ground, I can see how this would achieve such illustrious goals as those. But for Admin's sake, I know those of you in charge of this crapfest have a couple of neurons to rub together, can you please gag and/or educate these children? At least make them tow party lines that can be vaguely supported by fact, instead of having them leave all over the place whatever creative little fecal nuggets they dream up on the spot? Please?
[/quote]
I disagree with this. Our OWF community has been shrinking, and it's good to see some new blood coming in for once, even if they don't really know what's going on yet. Let's not run off the few newbies who are willing to come within a mile of this place. I'm tired of the same old, bitter group of us arguing over the same things we argued about four years ago.

-Bama

[Letum]

[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1302555907' post='2688736']
I disagree with this. Our OWF community has been shrinking, and it's good to see some new blood coming in for once, even if they don't really know what's going on yet. Let's not run off the few newbies who are willing to come within a mile of this place. I'm tired of the same old, bitter group of us arguing over the same things we argued about four years ago.

-Bama
[/quote]

Yeah. Besides, they are really funny, and you shouldn't really take them too seriously HoT. Half of the stuff that's made up is being intentionally done, for recreational purposes.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302555695' post='2688731']

As a side note, to GOONS - I never hated you, until now. The massive volumes of uneducated, loud-mouthed nooblets talking out their asses is starting to really piss me off. Perhaps, I guess, if your goal was to come off as having the absolute stupidest member-base, and to run what little you had left of your reputation straight into the ground, I can see how this would achieve such illustrious goals as those. But for Admin's sake, I know those of you in charge of this crapfest have a couple of neurons to rub together, can you please gag and/or educate these children? At least make them tow party lines that can be vaguely supported by fact, instead of having them leave all over the place whatever creative little fecal nuggets they dream up on the spot? Please?
[/quote]

Please... PLEASE reread this statement.

Edited April 11, 2011 by tamerlane

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1302555907' post='2688736']
I disagree with this. Our OWF community has been shrinking, and it's good to see some new blood coming in for once, even if they don't really know what's going on yet. Let's not run off the few newbies who are willing to come within a mile of this place. I'm tired of the same old, bitter group of us arguing over the same things we argued about four years ago.

-Bama
[/quote]
I don't buy into the notion that all new participants in the political battlefield are a positive addition just because they have a pair of ham fists with which to slam against their keyboards (or whatever other device their countries have invented to post communications to this global message board). They are driving the overall quality right down the drain.

[Penguin]

Hmm, that doesn't seem to be called for either. Everyone starts out new and only through experience can they learn where they fit in. We all shoulder the burden of training future generations, and I'd hate to think anyone would want to discourage that for a little peace of mind. Young Goons, though I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, ignore this sentiment and keep searching for your own place in our little world.

[Bergerland]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302555225' post='2688723']
I was unaware that sitting alone for two years minding our own damn business caused other alliances to believe they have suffered a wrong.
[/quote]

You sure as hell weren't getting into any wars, but minding your own business you were not.

[NowaCorp]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1302556013' post='2688738']
Half of the stuff that's made up is being intentionally done, for recreational purposes.
[/quote]
This part is true. GOONS are all about recreational activities. [img]http://i.imgur.com/6OVAC.gif[/img]

[Letum]

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1302556348' post='2688746']
You sure as hell weren't getting into any wars, but minding your own business you were not.
[/quote]

You would have to relax your standards of what is a "wrong" quite seriously to portray anything related to NPO in the past 2 years as creating the kind of grievance that needs to be addressed through military conflict. Enough to give half the alliances in this world a CB on the other half.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Letum

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Penguin' timestamp='1302556313' post='2688745']
Hmm, that doesn't seem to be called for either. Everyone starts out new and only through experience can they learn where they fit in. We all shoulder the burden of training future generations, and I'd hate to think anyone would want to discourage that for a little peace of mind. Young Goons, though I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, ignore this sentiment and keep searching for your own place in our little world.
[/quote]
I doubt they [i]want[/i] to learn. I'm fairly certain that they are specifically aiming to degrade the standards of this community. Just a feeling I get, mostly from their origins and their need to collect pubbie tears wherever they go.

I won't celebrate the locust swarm as a new influx of life.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302556279' post='2688743']
I don't buy into the notion that all new participants in the political battlefield are a positive addition just because they have a pair of ham fists with which to slam against their keyboards (or whatever other device their countries have invented to post communications to this global message board). They are driving the overall quality right down the drain.
[/quote]
Basically what Penguin said. I think some of us regulars sometimes lose sight of just how much background knowledge is necessary to post here. Everything from nation mechanics to history to the various social norms to the myriad of memes. The sheer volume of information that we treat as common knowledge is, I think, a large reason why so few new members venture here. At this point the planet has been around for so long that we've amassed an incredible amount of it, and it takes time to learn. I'm just happy that someone is interested in being a part of this community of ours. Perhaps I'm overly optimistic that these newbies will eventually learn the ropes, but given the overall decline in OWF users in recent years, I'm willing to err on the side of optimism.

-Bama

Edited April 11, 2011 by BamaBuc

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1302550481' post='2688676']
We pulled it back away a few days after we gave them the warning, it has been weeks since then. It was completely serious and I'm sure you can see it was a tactical move on our part. Obviously we wanted them out before damage was done. That was the whole point of giving them no terms.[/quote]

I get what you're saying, I just think that when you're called upon by an ally to come into a fight, giving up after a short period of time and leaving them out to dry is something I think we can both agree is pretty unacceptable when you're the size and have as much firepower as TOOL. Perhaps your offer was genuine, but I don't think you were all that surprised when it wasn't accepted either.

As I said though, these are terms that very light and I'm not going to bash you about the face and shoulders for offering them. To me these aren't "reps" in the sense I mean in my sig at the moment. Very clearly this is a business transaction and not an imbalanced one either. I would hope that the rest of those that came in on the Pacifician side (but didn't necessarily come in to defend NPO) would get similar if white peace isn't going to happen.

[Penguin]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302556729' post='2688755']
I doubt they [i]want[/i] to learn. I'm fairly certain that they are specifically aiming to degrade the standards of this community. Just a feeling I get, mostly from their origins and their need to collect pubbie tears wherever they go.

I won't celebrate the locust swarm as a new influx of life.
[/quote]
I can't speak for anyone else, but cynicism and negativity are more likely to drive me away than naivety ever could. It doesn't matter which "side" it comes from. Grit your teeth and smile if you have to.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302556729' post='2688755']
I doubt they [i]want[/i] to learn. I'm fairly certain that they are specifically aiming to degrade the standards of this community. Just a feeling I get, mostly from their origins and their need to collect pubbie tears wherever they go.

I won't celebrate the locust swarm as a new influx of life.
[/quote]
I really hope MK/GOONS/whoever is fighting you, destroys you enough where you can just stop playing. We were all new to this [ooc]game[/ooc] at once. I myself threatened GDI with a Continuum attack before I knew what the hell was going on. After this, I sat back and learned about CN. You have no idea what the new GOONS nations want to do.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Ryan Greenberg

[Penguin]

That is kind of like fighting fire with fire.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Penguin

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1302556751' post='2688756']
Basically what Penguin said. I think some of us regulars sometimes lose sight of just how much background knowledge is necessary to post here. Everything from nation mechanics to history to the various social norms to the myriad of memes. The sheer volume of information that we treat as common knowledge is, I think, a large reason why so few new members venture here. At this point the planet has been around for so long that we've amassed an incredible amount of it, and it takes time to learn. I'm just happy that someone is interested in being a part of this community of ours. Perhaps I'm overly optimistic that these newbies will eventually learn the ropes, but given the overall decline in OWF users in recent years, I'm willing to err on the side of optimism.

-Bama
[/quote]

wut? NO U!

That ain't hard.


Edit: Also enjoy your peace, have faith that it can't last forever. Right? Right?

Edited April 11, 2011 by HalfEmpty

[Alterego]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1302556729' post='2688755']
I doubt they [i]want[/i] to learn. I'm fairly certain that they are specifically aiming to degrade the standards of this community. Just a feeling I get, mostly from their origins and their need to collect pubbie tears wherever they go.

I won't celebrate the locust swarm as a new influx of life.
[/quote]
As bad as I am I dont think I ever ragged on people just for being new. Thats fairly low for a veteran.

[the dakotans]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1302550481' post='2688676']
We pulled it back away a few days after we gave them the warning, it has been weeks since then. It was completely serious and I'm sure you can see it was a tactical move on our part. Obviously we wanted them out before damage was done. That was the whole point of giving them no terms.

[/quote]

I wont speak for the coalition but TOOLs first offer was 30,000 tech in the form of 3m/100tech paid within 60 days. We did not receive the 0 reps offer/minimal, ever. Now this could be because we didn't ask MK for peace as a separate party during the "early days" but still if we weren't aware of the offer than it didn't exist.

Edit: It's rather irrelevant though, it's not like we would have accepted it at that time heh.

Edited April 11, 2011 by the dakotans

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1302558175' post='2688776']
As bad as I am I dont think I ever ragged on people just for being new. Thats fairly low for a veteran.
[/quote]
I'm not ragging on them simply for being new. It is their behavior that frightens me, they are overtly aggressive and disruptive, seemingly intentionally with a number of them, and GOONS seems to be doing little to nothing to educate the influx they have brought with them.

I welcome with open arms anyone who actually, seriously wants to make positive contributions to the world, and I'm well aware of the steep learning curve. But the majority of these new faces, I don't see that coming from them. A few, yeah, but not from the majority.