Rafael Nadal

I'm not angry at all for your responses to us. Don't dish out what you can't take yourself. If I make a snide comment towards somebody, I'm not going to get angry for getting a snide comment back. All I'm saying is that I will contend you most likely underestimate the slight some feel by just plain dismissing their input and wishes. Once again, that's fine, but just understand that you have pissed some people off, and pissed off people don't go out of their way to help those who pissed them off.

A great summary post. A lot of us have been arguing these points individually in different topics, but it's definitely nice to see them all connected and intertwined in one post. Nice job Aza.

There is no veiled meaning to my words. It's quite obvious you have pissed off a faction in Karma, and people who are pissed at you tend to not go out of their way to do you any favors. I said it is your right to piss off the faction, but don't expect there to be no implications or consequences from it. The consequences could range from short term anger/frustration to a long term grudge, or anywhere in between. Different people, alliances, and people in alliances will take this slight differently, and some of them who take it harder happen to be in positions of power in their governments. Also, that public Valhalla peace topic had the same arguments as the terms topic for Karma, just obviously in a new venue. And for the same reasons that you have the right to piss off a faction of Karma, I don't see any need to exert control over the gov't members of other alliances. And as for provoking a horrible response, you were going to get it from the general membership regardless of what a few government individuals felt. And if you're going to use language such as provoking, offhandedly dismissing the input, concerns, and wishes of your fellow coalition members is a good way to do it. I'm not entirely blaming you guys, just making a point about using the term "provoking".

Congrats on the peace. These terms seem pretty fair, perhaps even a tad bit light, but overall, no real complaints with them.

All you're doing is stunting their ability to import from outside the alliance. Anything they have internally is unaffected. Any tech or money they have currently remains intact. You are not hindering their internal growth, by A) not making them pay reps, which would affect the tech and money they have on hand, and B ) not tying up their aid slots at all, allowing them full access to rebuild. Saying they can't tech deal doesn't hinder the use of aid slots. Yes, I understand they can't import buy as much tech now as they could without the outside aid restriction. Edit: I guess I'll sum up my thoughts here, seeing as I've been mostly gone for a while and missed 40 pages of the Valhalla topic. I agree with Kronos and Umbrella, the terms are yours to dictate, seeing as you were on that front, and that is how Karma is handling the surrenders. I also agree with you that you have no obligation to take others' concerns, wishes, desires, etc into consideration, especially of parties to whom you're not directly tied. Saying that, your complete dismissal of these others' concerns, wishes, desires, etc on the basis that you are not allied and owe us no consideration in your thought process is a double edged sword. You're certainly not winning too many friends or endearing yourselves to us, though perhaps the same can be said for those disagreeing with you as well. However, how you have treated those of us by flat out dismissing our concerns and desires, again, you have the right to, will certainly stay in our memories, some of us longer than others, some of us more fervently than others. All I can say is that I hope you don't need/want any of us to do anything or seriously take into consideration your concerns in a situation you're not directly involved in, seeing as you've irked many of those in power in these outside alliance. Obviously, that won't be a problem if you never need us to do anything, and I'm sure several of you will remember the way this disagreement was voiced, and its ferocity. Every decision has its implications, if not consequences, and I just hope you understand the implications of your decision, and more importantly (at least in my mind) how you've come to this decision.

On both sentences regarding Tyga's statement. Firstly, Tyga has not advocated an eye for an eye policy. Secondly, I have a feeling you'll be waiting quite a long time for that curb stomp. Also, next implies they've participated in one before, which they haven't to the best of my knowledge, unless you count being on the wrong end one as planning.

Besides FAN, I can't think of an alliance in a worse position for a long stretch of time that has stuck it out. I don't count Vox in this, since their position was actually beneficial to their weapons, which was their words and information. Also, you can question Rok, since they've never been in such a position, but I can guarantee you that Vanguard specifically has the money and resources to help them out, should they need it, and if you want to question our resolve in backing up Rok, or any war for that matter, then you obviously don't know who makes up the core of Vanguard. Not to mention, Rok also has SF, which includes alliances like the aforementioned Fark. Also, somebody posted deriding TOP about their commitment to OUT. That's laughable. Completely laughable. I'm not exactly a TOP supporter, far from it actually, but that claim is ridiculous. OUT is not the focus of Orange Alliances. It's just not, sorry if I'm spilling the beans. It's not the focus of TOP. It's not the focus of IRON. It's no longer (though I think they've shown more commitment in the past than anybody else) ODN's focus. It's not Vanguard's focus. Color spheres are not the dominant political clustering forces in this game, and until then, color spheres will take a back seat to inter-sphere relations. There is no inherent reason or benefit to having your color sphere be your closest friends, and other than perhaps working together on trade circles, there is little reason to leave a color sphere to join a friend/friends on other color spheres. While I'm glad to see this treaty go, it's heavily muted by the fact you were so closely allied to them, and thus supported their actions for so long. Better late than never I guess.

I don't. Universalis' whole identity was its tight knit group of friends. I rather enjoyed Uni's personality.

Legion recognized their disbandment during our war, so that's a no for Legion. I hardly think MASH cares, since they were only dragged in by Legion; no inherent conflict between Uni and MASH. If either party has any issues with this reformation, they're free to contact Uni, SLCB, and Vanguard.

You received reps from us because we were so fed up with talking to Legion gov't, that it was easier to just pay the reps than to deal with the frustration and aggravation of talking with you guys longer. There were also other external factors that I'm pretty sure you're not aware of, which helped bring that conflict to a close. Switching notes, it's great to see Lem and co. back in CN. I look forward to joint ventures in the future. Also, I'll agree with others here, Volvo is a lame name. Such a boring car company. Regardless, congrats on your reformation.

It's nice to finally see this front over. Congrats to the involved parties.

A sad day for both of us.

All I'll say is that I hope Valhalla truly does change its ways, instead of masquerading as a changed alliance until it regains a powerful spot once the terms are up. You've received incredibly light terms, obviously polarizing as seen in this topic, and I hope this goodwill, or foolishness (depending upon your viewpoint) isn't trampled upon. I personally would have liked to seen light reps, at least as a token of punishment. I also would have limited internal aiding between those in peace mode and war mode. Also, Nizzle, I'm sorry, but it won't (at least it shouldn't) take Valhalla 6 months to get back to pre-war strength levels. Maybe if they received terms that they had been party to handing out in the past, but they have no economic hits in these terms hindering their rebuilding. And they're not rebuilding from scratch. They already have wonders and improvements, which drastically decrease the time it takes to rebuild.

So because ODN historically has made some questionable decisions, ones which portray a lack of backbone, they need to continue doing so? For some reason, that doesn't seem correct to me. Because they have tried to appease IRON for so long, (by the way, the government does have a fair bit of turnover, allowing for new ambitions, goals, and views to come to the forefront) they need to continually subjugate themselves? Maybe ODN finally woke up to the fact that despite all their efforts to get closer to IRON, IRON just wasn't reciprocating at the same level. I think the events between ODN and IRON have been sufficiently covered by others, so I won't repeat them. Declaring on the alliances ODN declared on reveals that ODN took the easy way out? Really? Then I guess it might be relevant to you that in my conversations with several ODN gov't members, they wanted to fight larger targets than the conglomerate they are now. Also, I guess ODN shouldn't have come to the aid of INT and RnR when they were asked. Certainly the decision to help them shows their propensity to take the easy way out. You can blame ODN for past actions, including canceling on NpO. Hell, I thoroughly went through the list of why ODN is considered a joke by most of CN, including the general membership of Vanguard, with them. I don't, and I don't believe ODN does either, think that this one instance of not declaring neutrality and picking a side not based on sheer numbers or odds of winning is going to fully vindicate themselves, however, it is but one step, and a fairly large first step as well. Whether or not they keep it up remains to be seen, but to deride their current actions reeks of grudges from your rolling in PW2. ODN is attempting to turn over a new leaf in their history; what do you want ODN to do, bow before your very presence? Several times ODN has mentioned that canceling was a horrible move, one of the low points of their history as an alliance. I know that doesn't undo the deed, but what else can you ask for? Would you like reps to ease the pain? And since we're talking about contempt for alliances. How about the contempt I, and other Vanguard members hold for you? We were approached several times (admittedly, not by you personally) about a high level treaty. We said no; we wanted to see that NpO had sufficiently changed from the alliance that got rolled. Finally, when we felt confident about it, we came to you guys to do the deed. All was going well, or so we thought, until we were told it was denied "for not being the right time." I was unaware friendship had time constraints? Rok offering a day before us (without our knowledge by the way, since I believe you said we only offered after we knew Rok did) somehow negates our ability to sign a treaty formalizing friendship? Don't insult us by coming to us for treaties, and then telling us it's not the right time. We don't sign treaties of interest; we sign treaties of friendship, to which there is no right time. Though, I guess you're right, it's not the right time, and I don't foresee it ever being the right time as long as you're in power in NpO. Don't worry though, I won't be watching you closely.

While I certainly am glad to have TOP help out Karma, this only reinforces my skepticism of OUT.

So you break your passive tendencies by participating in a multi-front war? I like it.

First off, the cb was manufactured (what a suprise). Also, the spy in ONOS, Da Choice, in an odd turn of events, was given safe harbor in NPO, before we got rolled for DC's actions. And yes, we can blame NPO for the collapse of ONOS, considering it collapsed under the viceroyship of one Ivan Moldavi. Secondly, to what strength has GATO and Legion come back to? GATO hasn't been relevant since losing GW2. Legion hasn't been relevant since GWI. So to what great prosperity have they returned to after their viceroys? ONOS ceased to exist once the gov't was kicked out, as ONOS under NPO control isn't ONOS. As for declaring on GGA, MASH has a treaty with Athens, which is directly at war with GGA. Secondly, GGA is a direct ally of NPO; severely hurting GGA hurts NPO as well. Edit: Also, TaintedDefeat sighting in this topic.

Have fun carrying out some semblance of revenge. Shiboboo Former Don of ONOS Family 5

So nemesis gets to finally put them out of their misery?

I think you're in for a surprise.

I can personally attest to the back and forth nature, and thus, difficulty, ODN had in coming to this decision. And it's because of my, and others, regular discussions with ODN gov't members that I can say with 100% certainty that this announcement had it's roots in a time before this war had even remotely materialized. While the scope of the announcement, such as the Blood Brothers Pact, may have been widened by NPO's actions the other day, the nature of the decision is not newly founded. I welcome ODN out of the shadows of CN politics. ODN is among the oldest alliances in the game, yet they have been (for multiple reasons) a second rate power for quite a while now. Vanguard stands by you ODN, and we're pleased to have you stand by us.

How does it feel to be the subject of Vanguard's Revenge Doctrine?

Remember when GGA said they don't need WRC's because they have NPO to protect them? What happens when NPO can't protect you?

I don't think you quite realize that your post describes the position you are in more than it does our.

Yes, OUT. Edit: Jesus christ, fast posting people.