Joe Izuzu

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295748534' post='2592731'] Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. A senior member of government worked with a spy to the point of thinking up names and picking the alliance to spy on. Much like the drug dealer is a better catch than the drug user, the spymaster is a better catch than the spy.[/quote] Wrong, he didn't "pick the alliance". Try again, or show me the quote that proves your claim. [quote]As you seem completely incapable of making the distinction between passively accepting information and actively taking part in acquiring it (thats why daj asking for the rehost was pure gold)...[/quote] Wrong, he didn't ask him to rehost. Try again, or show me the quote that proves your claim. [quote]....let me spell it out for you, "accepting information" was a crap CB in Karma for two reasons, the most important one, and the one that lost NPO the PR war for it was when Moo gave the infamous 'all alliances accept information' line. NPO being a subset off "all" Moo had just said that they wanted to kill OV for something they had done, you may recall the wonderfully leading question of how NPO could know OV had accepted information without also doing the same.[/quote] So...VE is guilty of exactly the same thing as NPO, since you accepted information concerning the size of NpO's war chests: "Sprog: How do their warchest compare to yours?" "Dajobo: Similar" You also accepted screen shots from NpO's forums in order to obtain that information. Way to self-incriminate. [quote]The other lesser reason is that there is a difference between accepting information passively that is handed to you and actively taking part in its gathering. I realize fully that nobody on your side wants to recognize the difference because its the closest thing to a defense of Daj's actions, but you just look silly trying since its pitifully transparent, and even if it wasn't Daj has already admitted he made mistakes. The only logical point of contention you have left is that our going to war was hasty and/or an over reaction. But nobody's tired to address that yet without covering the place with Grade A Cow Patties.[/quote] Wrong. He actually apologized for joking around with Lennox and for not going to you quicker once he realized that Lennox had actually done something. He did not run any spy op, nor did he apologize for running one. Try again, or show me the quote that proves your claim. [quote]You continually try to dress this up as some master plan by VE to get you rolled but forget that none of this could have happened without Daj first sending us a spy, that was the crime, the setup was tricking Polar into handing us proof. No matter how many times you try to regurgitate the same lies it won't change that this all started with a chat between Lennox and Daj, which we knew nothing about until Lennox flipped on Polar. Polar made two mistakes, the sent us a spy in the first place, then they gave that spy proof he could use against them.[/quote] Wrong. Daj did not send you a spy. There is absolutely nothing in the logs that supports that claim. This matter actually started when Impero colluded with Lennox by giving him screenshots and instructing him how to spy on NpO. An action that he did his damndest to keep secret from anyone in his own alliance. At the time that Lennox "flipped on Polar", there was nothing to flip. Daj did make a mistake, which was talking to Lennox at all. But Polar did not give any proof to you, since you still have none. You never did. [quote]The 'material' posted by RV proves nothing, it is largely lies and misrepresentation, easily dis-proven at that, the fact that you belive them simply proves your ignorance, or that you are more interested in preaching from a political platform rather than anything related to the facts of the case.[/quote] Wrong. If it was "easily disproven", you would have done so already, yet you have not. In fact, Impero's efforts to disprove it have only served to strengthen the legitimacy it holds in the minds of just about anyone who is not your ally. And while I may certainly be preaching from a political platform (although I would say it is more of a social one), the basis of my "preaching" has been constructed solely from the facts that are available. [quote]Either way, it still changes nothing, no matter how much garbage is spewed out onto the OWF by Polar and its allies, the fact is we moved for an offense we felt warranted this response, and we are winning this war. No amount of spin can change those two facts.[/quote] Wrong. I am not a Polar ally. Also, the fact is that you moved because you managed to manufacture a CB that, for a short time, had the semblance of being justified and which allowed you to roll someone you dislike. The "offense" did not, in reality, exist and the semblance of justification has long since been tarnished. As to whether or not you are winning the war, that claim at least is plausible, if not certain. [quote]And that was covered in in the DoW, its a feeble throwaway one liner in a CYA attempt, that we are not buying, since it was in the same conversation as him suggesting somebody go spy on us.[/quote] Wrong. It is the statement that proves the truth. Lennox was on his own, Dajobo was just joking around, and there was no spy op. Except, of course, for the one that was run by Impero. [quote]I hadn't noticed, I'd guess timezones, IRC clients typically log in local time.[/quote] Nice try, but wrong again.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295738655' post='2592532'] ....That you didn't spy, that he thought the screen shots were fake, or that he was just kidding, or that the whole thing was a setup by VE? There are so many version of your position out there its hard to keep track.... [/quote] Actually all four of those assertions are correct and none of them are mutually contradictory. Dajobo didn't spy, although he did receive info from Lennox, the info that Impero intentionally gave to Lennox to pass on to Dajobo. As VE and Co. was so adamant about in Karma, receiving information does not constitute spying. Moreover, Dajobo almost immediately came to you with the purloined information, but you didn't want to listen, having gotten the [s]"evidence"[/s] relatively innocuous logs from your mole. Furthermore, Dajobo NEVER sent Lennox on you, Lennox and Impero chose you themselves, as per their plan. And Dajobo, by his own admission in the logs you posted, WAS only joking around with Lennox. Finally, as evidenced by the info posted by RV and subsequently (unintentionally?) confirmed by Impero, the whole thing WAS a setup, which everyone knows but which you and your allies still refuse to admit. The most relevant excerpt from the logs posted in your DOW: 21:14 Chancy Am I supposed to be taking screenshots of whatever the govt. says, or just everything 21:14 Chancy to make them angry 21:14 Dajobo|NpO| [b]what ever floats your boat[/b] 21:15 Dajobo|NpO| [b]I'm not part of this just lolling with you[/b] Also, you never answered the question posed by Ivan. How come the date stamp on the logs of Impero's conversation with Lennox (the 12th) apparently predates the logs posted in your DOW?

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295685689' post='2591591'] Dajobo directed Lennox to take screenshots from VE, and then cooperated with him with that information. This cannot be simply forgiven without repercussion. But all of you who've seen the OP, without sending an agent to spy on us, are innocent and free. You don't have to worry about unreasonable punitive wars. Rejoice. [/quote] No matter how many times you misrepresent the truth, it will not make it so. Dajobo never "directed Lennox to take screenshots from VE". He never "cooperated with him with that information". He [b]did[/b] tell Lennox that he was not a part of Lennox's plan. The proof of that is in the very logs you posted in your DOW: 21:14 Chancy Am I supposed to be taking screenshots of whatever the govt. says, or just everything 21:14 Chancy to make them angry 21:14 Dajobo|NpO| what ever floats your boat 21:15 Dajobo|NpO| I'm not part of this just lolling with you Seriously, continuing with the whole Sisyphus thing of trying to roll that big boulder of BS up the hill just isn't going to work for you. It will simply keep rolling over you on the way back down.

It's no secret that I despise VE's actions in instigating this war, but you are to be admired for honoring your obligations, WF. Good luck out there.

Everybody knows and has known that it was a sting operation. That was the only scenario that explained VE's actions in their rush to war, such as: Refusing to negotiate with Dajobo when he went to them with the contraband the very next day. Refusing to wait for even 1 day for RoK to give them approval to attack Polar. Keeping Lennox on as a member after he "spied". The collection of blatant lies they have told throughout this affair. Unfortunately, I have to agree that it probably won't matter. The people that are rolling with VE don't/won't care about the truth and the unaligned probably won't care enough, or have balls enough, to stand up for the truth.

I foresee some great new propaganda pieces from D34th. Nice work, RV.

Hope you like the new neighborhood.

Congratulations. As long as Heracles doesn't show up, you should probably be fine.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1295622762' post='2589137'] Well we can't all be like your alliance. Bandwagoning to victory. [/quote] Exactly how many alliances hit Polar? Glass houses and all that.....

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1295586264' post='2588159'] [color="#0000FF"]....It might surprise you, but VE is my least favorite alliance ever (you beat NPO guys!)...[/color][/quote] Another of our cherished stats taken away. This makes me unhappy. VE [quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1295602589' post='2588930'] Do you have any reason to believe or proof that VE hasn't maintained full and frank communication with NV during this entire conflict? I bet they have. [/quote] Yeah, just like it was true when they claimed that "RoK gave us the green light to attack Polar" [quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1295616665' post='2589065'] Just as an update here, I did speak to Cent. In fact, I'm speaking with him right now. He's assured me that, not only are you lying here and you didn't tell them in advance, Goldie went to them and discussed it after and admitted you made a mistake here. So way to straight up lie! [/quote] And, despite Cent's post forgiving you for not notifying NV in advance, the fact remains that you didn't do so. The lies just keep piling up for you, VE. Too bad that you can't develop a hidden lie silo to store them in. They must cause quite an eyesore in Viridia.

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295590884' post='2588610'] It seriously is not ok, but one day you too might learn to forgive and show mercy. [/quote] Solaris, I must congratulate you. You are, without a doubt, the most sanctimonious, self-absorbed poster I have seen on these forums in quite a long time. However, despite the fact that you most often spout seemingly endless, and basically meaningless, pseudo-psychological babble, in this case you have managed to concisely say something worthwhile. Not worthwhile in the context you in which were attempting to make your point, but rather as yet another example of the hypocrisy that has been continually in evidence by VE since the start of this entire episode. How can you plead for forgiveness and mercy for your own well-documented and undeniable transgressions, yet be so completely intransigent with regard to the minor lapse of someone else? Wouldn't you say that your behavior is a textbook example of hypocrisy? Well, of course I know that [i]you[/i] wouldn't say so, but just about any objective third party would.

Some excellent work in this thread, but D34th wins hands down.

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295581566' post='2587689'] I don't trust the opinion of someone that doesn't know when to use their/there, when to use commas, apostrophes, and makes an IRC channel dedicated to himself. Tedd. [/quote] [quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1295582768' post='2587726'] Impero has his own channel now? [/quote] LOL. You win the thread, Senator.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295504670' post='2585631'] Their word was a pledge to stay neutral since they had conflicting treaties. A pledge you just saw them break. [/quote] [quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1295505729' post='2585703'] I don't ever remember pledging to stay neutral. [/quote] [quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1295506132' post='2585735'] Hate us on all you want, but you can't possible believe we were stupid enough to declare on an allies treaty partner without clearing it when them first? RoK was ok with this, then changed their mind after we rolled. They .... Holy !@#$. It just hit me. Rok just quite literally pulled the same stunt on us that Polar did to TOP and IRON. [/quote] [quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1295508046' post='2585823'] He's referring to the fact that RoK okay'd the war in the same way that NpO okay'd the attack on CnG. wow you're dense. [/quote] [quote name='Tautology' timestamp='1295528787' post='2586202'] ...This bit isn't true: "VE told RoK they will hit NpO, RoK gives the OK."...[/quote] I love the disinformation that was VE and Co. attempted to spread here by stating the RoK gave them a green light to attack NpO. It is clear from Tautology's post, Joe Stupid's post, and this [u][b][url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97393&view=findpost&p=2587005"]post[/url][/b][/u] by Rampage3, that RoK NEVER gave a green light to VE. It is also equally clear that VE didn't care about obtaining clearance from RoK and simply rolled on NpO as quickly as they possibly could. That kind of behavior doesn't demonstrate respect for a treaty partner that is going to be put into an enormously difficult position. In fact, it demonstrates a complete and total disregard for the interests of that treaty partner. For VE to moan about RoK's choice in honoring the treaty with Polar just illustrates the all encompassing enormity of VE's continuing hypocrisy throughout this entire episode. If the truth won't serve, then just lie and try to smear the reputation of the treaty partner you just screwed over. Right, VE?

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295547464' post='2586741'] Whether you choose to believe this or not I'm by no means in the minority in MK with my opinions of you. [i]I tend to be the most vocal about this particular thing[/i] is all~ [/quote] This. I can forgive MK many things, but allowing Voytek to post here is not one of them.

Props, hails, and salutations, STA; you continue to demonstrate that you are one of the most honorable and loyal alliances on Bob. Good luck out there.

Props to GATO. Making a commitment to defend your allies, regardless of which side they are on is an honorable decision. As you have acknowledged, it puts you in an extremely difficult logistical position and pretty much ensures that you will bleed for your friends without gaining much in return (except respect from your friends and others who appreciate loyalty). [quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295548629' post='2586778'] Of course I care. I just don't care so much that I give allies of allies a free pass when they commit of act of war on us that demands a response. We're not responsible for the FA of the whole world and alliances that aren't allied to us don't get to do what they like because of a mutual connection. [/quote] Bob. You can stop with the spin attempts. Your allies support you and don't care about the fact that the CB was manufactured. Everybody else already knows that it was manufactured and your continued attempts to spin it the other way just makes you personally, and VE as a whole, look even more hypocritical in light of your own offenses in regard to illicit espionage attempts.

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1295539900' post='2586465'] It seems that alot of people are not [s]understanding some basic facts[/s] so gullible as to accept our propaganda of this war, so let us get a thread going. I will update it with submissions / posts as well. [list] [*] Lennox [s]spied on[/s] operated as a mole for VE [*] Dajobo [s]sanctioned spying against MK and VE[/s] joked around with someone he thought was a friend- MK [s]kindly didn't roll NpO for the intent[/s] had absolutely no horse in the race. [*] RoK DID warn their treaty partners 24 hours in advance that they were going to defend Polar. [*] Superfriends made their own decisions about who to attack, because that is their right as a bloc and a set of individual alliances. [*] I think it is safe to establish that VE and Lennox [s]started a defensive war[/s] conspired to create a bogus CB out of whole cloth against Polaris, [s]following a government-sanctioned spy attempt[/s] as evidenced by the fact that Dajobo went to VE within 24 hours of receiving nonsensitive material from Lennox and VE refused to discuss the matter, having already implemented the pre-existing plan to roll Polar. [*] RoK has connections to both sides of the web, [s]but were guilted into chosing Polar's side because of Hoo's personal feelings[/s] but chose to honor their MDoAP with Polar since Polar was aggresively attacked by an alliance with whom they have no treaty. [*] More [s]objectively true facts[/s] blatant spin to come, stay tuned to the [s]no-spin[/s] centrifuge zone.[/list] -Mello [/quote] Cleaned that up for you. Also.... ITT MK and pals continue to whine, moan and castigate RoK's honorable decision to defend their MDoAP partner, despite SF members emphatically stating that SF has no problem with RoK's decision, just like MK and pals have done ad nauseam in RoK's declaration thread. (edit: added strike-through to 2 words)

Much respect for making an honorable decision. Also respect to those on the other side who have expressed understanding and empathy for the difficult position in which you found yourselves. As for all the whiners who are criticizing you....bleh.

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1295493155' post='2584787'] words [/quote] Good riddance and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Ice-Spy War

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1295389116' post='2582113'] I thought it was well known by now that nobody actually cared about OV or your reasons for attacking them in the lead-up to the Karma War, if anything it took you guys so long to attack people started thinking they might of got prepped for war over nothing and would need to wait for the next CB to roll you guys. In the Karma War your fate was sealed ahead of time when your allies turned on you and everyone that mattered knew which of them had a knife ready to stick in your back as soon as a war started....[/quote] I know that. I just continue to hope that after such a long time people like Bob would have the stones to admit it, instead of continuing to spew the propoganda. I guess it is true that if you tell a lie long enough, you actually convince yourself that it is the truth....

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1295389027' post='2582112'] Please prove that your "translation" is accurate. [/quote] Prove that VE and friends interpretation in this case is accurate. Yeah, I did just pull the No U card.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295388583' post='2582093'] Yes, if I add stuff to the logs, I too can make them say something else! Seth can come in and respond to what you say about him if he likes, but let's just say ... your version is not one that anyone [s]outside the NPO would think of[/s] [i]on our side of the fence will admit[/i] as accurate. [/quote] Fixed that for you. I don't really care about the curbstomp, I am just offended by the hypocrisy inherent in your spin.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1295387140' post='2582046'] Except you didn't, you just hoped no-one would notice. Let's break it down: Without telling what it was [i]about[/i]? Hm, let's see. Oh dear. Facts 1, tired old ex-Hegemony nobody 0. (Not informing NPO was not a friendly action, indeed. When OV was in a power cluster that NPO was already very hostile towards that is quite understandable. If NpO received a genuine anonymous drop on, say, TOP, it would be quite rude of them not to inform TOP about it, but it wouldn't in itself be a CB. But that's [i]not[/i] all that happened here. Dajobo sent Lennox out to spy, and then he actively collaborated in being shown the screenshots, going so far as to ask for them to be reposted when he couldn't see them.) [/quote] Lets look at the excerpt, with appropriate translation added for the comprhension-impaired: 17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> I got that screenie for you [i](that we discussed before)[/i] [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> Cheesy [i](thank you for getting it for me)[/i] [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> about NPO increasing warchest [i](like we talked about before)[/i] [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> BUT [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> here's the deal [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> ? [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> NPO has an anti-spy feature [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> it's embedded in the image [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> we don't know where [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> so if that screen shot leaks, we lose a spy [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> ok [i](I understand and will continue to collude with you in your spying efforts)[/i] [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> okay [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> just so you know [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> It will remain in OV [i](I will never betray our partnership)[/i] [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> http://i730.photobuc....rchestleak.jpg [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> http://i730.photobuc....chest2leak.jpg [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> guard that with your life [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> I will [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> promise [i](since I am an active participant in spying, you can trust my word to protect you)[/i] [17:28] <sethb[OV-DepMoFO]> <Demeanor[Blackstone]> bbl [i](so we can discuss more spy ops like this one)[/i] Look, Bob, you can continue to try to distance yourself from the fact that VE's hypocrisy in this current situation is blatantly hypocritical, but it just doesn't work. SethB had an ongoing relationship with Demeanor, he actively cooperated with Demeanor and he NEVER came clean about his espionage. If NPO's CB wasn't valid then, there is no way on Admin's green Bob that VE's CB is valid now. SethB knew in advance what the screenies were about, he accepted them knowing what they were, and he agreed to keep them secret so as to perpetuate the life of the spy ring. That is actual, willful participation in espionage. On the other hand, as soon as Dajobo actually received any contraband, he almost immediately went to VE to advise them of the spy in their midst. VE didn't want to hear about it. All VE wanted was the excuse to roll Polar. As I posted earlier, it wouldn't have mattered whether he went to VE 5 minutes after receiving the screenies, VE would still have declared. That much is obvious to everyone; both those supporting the curbstomp and those who are against it.