Caliph

I remember this line, they said it to the whole OWF at the time, and you and yours fully supported them in the midst of it. So glad to know you felt so bad about it that Echelon issued an apology and decided to leave the BLEU bloc because of episodes like this. Wait, thats not why Echelon left BLEU ... If you don't like it, you can always speak up and distance yourself from "big brother". The thing is, you had no qualms supporting them in all that they did, and only now are against such actions because your favorite alliances are on the receiving end of such behavior instead of the dictating end. Speculation based on propoganda against Karma. Karma never stated to want an anarchist world, they just wanted NPO et all to be on the receiving end for once, instead of issueing beatdown after beatdown with its allies either participating or fully supporting their actions. Instead of 1 power, we will have more than one power. I am pretty sure you were around when there were multiple powers, and I for one thought those days were better in that you had less of one particular group dictating terms to everyone else. Less increasingly harsh reps, because you didn't want to anger the rest of the world because the military power wasn't just in your camp, but spread out over several alliances and blocs. This whole line about "many Karma alliances are hypocrits" has been spouted before, yet I have yet to see proof that the majority of alliances fighting on Karma's side of this war are hypocrits. Instead, I see increasing behavior for the Hegemony side that is in the blatant hypocritical nature. Perhaps if you could give me a breakdown of all the hypocrit alliances, and then we can tally up the complete number of alliances on Karma's side and see if there are indeed more than half that you can claim are hypocrits. We can also go through that list and most likely debunk several of those as non hypocrits if we examine the events surrounding this war. Heh, well I don't consider you to be that word, I just think that your bias here allows you to overlook an abundance of bad behavior and poor treatment of others for the past 2 years on the part of your former alliance. And that, my dear, is the very definition of hypocricy.

Well, congrats on things. Nice seeing some new people in gov, and best of luck in the future.

I did the same. Guess which one of us he answered? Additionally, which one of us supported that war, and which one of us didn't? I remember being quite outspoken about that war, and remember a few arguments I have gotten into with Polaris gov, and if memory serves, you at that time, and others. I remember you, or at least your alliance, fully supporting Polaris in that event. So bringing up that event to try to smear Polaris kinda backfires as we see your alliance fully supporting Polaris in that war with absolutely no evidence to back it up. That does not look good when claiming Echelon has "honor". Truth is there was no proof of NADC spy attacks. However in this situation there is plenty of evidence for Echelon being subpar with conducting diplomacy, in that respect was not freely given, and that Echelon acted with a heavy hand in the past. Now that Echelon no longer has the might of One Vision or BLEU to draw on, and one of its oldest allies, NPO, is in no position to help them, Echelon turns to the propoganda war, and moans and wines about the term of surrender that stats Echelon members with over 1k tech must pay reps. How is this any worse than what Echelon did to MK in the NoCB war? Truth is, it isn't any worse at all. If Echelon were truly against such terms, where were Echelon members speaking out against their government? Why did the leaders in negotiations representing Echelon, why weren't those people expelled from the alliance for not representing Echelon views? Or at least discontent from Echelon members in loue (spelling?) of Echelons actions that war? You'll forgive me if I do not see Echelon as a victim here in this war. You'll also note that I see the reps offered so far as perfectly acceptable, seeing as how Echelon has given terms like that to alliances in the past, and has fully supported their allies when they had offered worse terms in the past. This shows that Echelon has no problem with terms like these, only when terms like these are offered to them. And that is double standards.

NPO: They are still up to their old games, trying to stay at the top of the game using any means necessary. They are trying to organize propoganda campaigns to portray themselves as the victim of a war they started, and they are acheiving more success than they should seeing as the facts of the matter have been pretty well laid out on these forums. NPO will use any concession by Karma as a justification to state that they won this war. Right now, they don't want to admit they lost, so they will continue to do all in their power to be able to tell the world how they have "never" lost. NPO will not change, in that NPO will continue to do whatever they believe is necessary to make sure they are at the top. My opinion of NPO stays the same, as they are doing what they have always done, and that is try to manipulate the world into thinking their version of events is the correct version, regardless of evidence suggesting otherwise. IRON: I personally believe that IRON will not change, in that all IRON did in the past was support whoever was at the top. IRON supported NPO and continued to support them in all that they did until finally NPO's recent transgressions were not ignored as they were in the past. IRON will continue this practice of buddying up to whomever is in the seat of power and supporting them in all that they do. I would hope that IRON will chose to not support certain actions performed by whomever is at the top (if such actions are bad), but I cannot know this until it actually happens post war. My opinion of IRON stays the same until they have shown me they different behavior. TPF: My opinion has grown, in that TPF has yet to make a deal that will get them out of this war with white peace. TPF has taken their licks, and are taking a beating that they have not been able to dodge. They, as far as I can tell, have not whined about it, but still maintain that their version, the NPO's version, is the correct version of events. They have shown loyalty to the NPO, beyond the loyalty they have shown others in the past. I for one see TPF trying to maintain relations with the NPO. Avalon: They have shown the world true loyalty, facing a coalition that they have no hope of beating but not wanting out of the war until their allies are out. My opinion of them has risen, in that I had no idea who they were pre war, and they have shown me what they were about during the war. Echelon: Same as TPF. This time around Echelon couldn't switch sides to avoid the beatdown, and couldn't stay neutral to avoid the beatdown, so they embraced the inevitable. Echelon, to my knowledge, still refuses to acknowledge that NPO started this war, and that NPO was in the wrong. They still maintan that NPO is correct, and remain in this war. My opinion has increased because they willingly and knowingly embraced this war, partly because they knew they couldn't get out of it, and partly because they felt more allegiance to the NPO than they did to the NpO when faced with a similar situation.

I fully support this idea, in that I like getting tech for listening to random things.

These is a third option, and that is NPO will realize after so many days of wars that the Karma resolve is not weakening and will start complying in order to receive some sort of terms they can accept. Polar did get terms they deserved, but after they payed for those crimes, so in my opinion Polar should not have been hit at that point as the situation had changed in that Sponge was ousted before the war occured, but after the war planning had occured. However you are correct in that the "justness" or "evilness" of anyones actions is subjective. I don't believe Karma is saying they are "righting any wrongs". This war is fought because the treaty web allowed a large coalition to be built to stand up to NPO and TORN in their war of agression against OV. Karma is choosing, purposely, to show more lenient terms than Hegemony has in the past. We can only view someones past actions to make any sort of educated guess as to what their future actions will be, and Hegemonies past actions have been beat down wars and harsher and harsher reps. Karma is acting more leniently here than the Hegemony has in past wars. Well, I do appreciate that you called yourself a hypocrit in an earlier post, because I don't have to point out to you that when NPO was doing worse actions you were either supporting them or silent about the matter. If you truly were upset about those actions, then was the time to speak up. Speak up when the possibility of reprecussion is there, so we all know you truly believe what you are saying and are willing to put yourself on the line for it. Now anyone can say they were indeed upset about actions in the past, but action now does not make up for lack of actions then. Pre terms is not a new concept, NPO did it first. The NPO has treated others in a certain way, and thus we are treating NPO in a certain way. Now, we are not as cruel as the NPO is (or at least those in charge of negotiating peace terms aren't as cruel as those in charge of developing peace terms for NPO's enemies in the past), so we won't do exactly what NPO did unto others. They are hypocrits for criticizing FAN and GPA for using "hippie mode", and yet use it extensively themselves. It is partly this hypocricy, however mostly the desire to make sure NPO is sufficiently beaten down this war to not be an immediate threat to those alliances in Karma, that drives this statement. I agree with the criticism that the wording, as presented, gives NPO no incentive to leave peace mode. Vladimir is correct in that without a concrete starting number for peace mode reps to increase from, the "punishment" is not perceived. All NPO will know are the terms presented, and they will just have to take us at our word that the reps were increased by X amount. However Vladimir knows that this is a smokescreen argument. He, along with others in the NPO, is hoping that the resolve of Karma will falter, and one by one Karma alliances will seek a white peace with NPO until there comes a time when NPO can blitz out of peace mode and devastate those still in war with NPO. Or that Karma will tire of this war and offer white peace, or light terms thus allowing NPO to come back and be a viable military threat quickly. This is no secret. What Karma is doing here is for viable, sound, military reasoning. It just wasn't presented to the NPO in such a way as to make staying in peace mode a proper threat.

A few notes. 1) I have been speaking about injustices for the better part of 2 years here, beginning with a different name, and now with this name. I have spoken up in the past regardless of these "political ramifications" you speak of. 2) Karma is not being hypocratic at all. Hegemony gave them all valid CB's, much more valid than the one NPO and TORN used on OV to kick off this war. Karma never said they would give white peace to all combatants. 3) Karma has consistantly stated NPO's surrender terms would be harsh. 4) NPO began this cycle of increasingly harsh terms and unjust treatment of people staying in peace mode in wars. Many, many NPO members and NPO supporters voiced their incredibly loud praising of the NPO for such a move. Karma, on the other hand, has issued a completely different ultimatum for nations in peace mode. Instead of EZI'ing those in peace mode, or promising eternal war for those nations, Karma has stated that the reperations for the NPO, their entire alliance, will be higher given that if you are in peace mode you cannot take damage, and therefor have an increased ability to pay reparations after the war ends. 5) I do find it incredibly hypocratic that all of these NPO supporters are speaking out against Karma for doing this, yet they were silent or even supporting NPO when they did something far worse than this. Where was your cries of injustice when MK and Polar got harsh terms? Where was your cries of unjustice when GATO was told to get out of peace mode of those nations in peace mode would get EZI'd? Also, point me to where Karma said they would EZI NPO nations in peace mode? Until such a thing happens, it is you, and everyone supporting NPO and bashing Karma here who are the hypocrits. @ Bama-Buc I understand your point of view, but let me explain something. I do not see myself as a hypocrit. I have been consistant in my views, and consistant in the "theme" of my posts. I have been anti EZI for as long as I can remember. I dislike harsh terms for alliances that don't "deserve it". The actions of NPO have proven to me that they do, in fact, "deserve it". Additionally, they have performed worse acts than Karma has this war. I don't understand how when Karma performs less harsh acts than Hegemony how Karma can be hypocrits. If you could clear this up for me, that would be appreciated.

Wow, nice read. Although I strongly doubt the NPO would accept such terms. They love to give harsh terms, but don't like receiving them. I predict they'll stay in PM until such terms are lessoned.

Sad to lose that many members, but sometimes it is necessary if they desert in war or refuse to fight. Good show TCB

Now this is extremely hot bro. Too bad you had to lose allies, but if you had to cancel treaties than they weren't really your current allies, yaknowwhatImean?

Totally hot bro. keep it real homies Blok Party!

same here. I'm dissapointed

I've been here close to 3 years now and I agree, it was not always like this. However I will state that IRC is a way to keep in touch with people that Admin has deemed fit to not allow in our universe here. So its not all bad.

Yes, it is very good seeing the new reformed Valhalla around. Funny that the new Valhalla sounds an awefull lot like the old Valhalla. Funny how White peace works for certain alliances.

Well, this is definately needed. Good to see GGA standing up for yourself for once, and not relying on allies to do everything for you. I feel really, really awkward doing this since i haven't done it since the Initiative, but ... o/ GGA

I was under the impression Umbrella is like Gen[m]ay 2.0, but better. Also, dead alliances coming back isn't that bad of a concept. Just make sure its for the right reasons, and don't come back allied to the same people that betrayed you or buried you in the first place.

Well now ...somewhat interesting. Time will tell if this is a good move or not. Best of luck anyway

I meant good luck rebuilding when they manage to get peace from everyone.

Happy B-day Polaris You guys have certainly had an interesting 3 years. Heres to 3 years more

Thanks for the clarification. In war situations can be messy, and in the heat of the moment mistakes can made and misunderstandings can happen. Have fun in the war ARES

I was wondering when this was going to happen. This war certaintly was devastating. As for if the damage was enough ...I don't think so. IRON had plenty of oppurtunities to voice their displeasure with the actions the NPO and others have taken, and I am not aware of IRON doing so publicly. Therefore the reps I believe are necessary to truly deliver the lesson. That said, I don't have any hard feelings towards IRON. Good luck rebuilding guys, I'm sure we'll be seeing IRON up in the top 5 in no time at all

Well, that was definately fun. Good luck rebuilding Avalon It was a fun war, but heres to peace now

Well, this is certainly interesting. Best of luck to the both of you, I suppose.

NPO won't get couped. There is no point, Karma won't all of a sudden declare white peace with NPO even if they have new leadership.

Welcome to the fray Hope you guys have fun!