Quick Announcement from Ordo Verde

[Il Impero Romano]

Rumors of alliances saying "Take these terms or we leave you on the front alone" and other alliances refusing to give terms because of old grudges that had nothing to do with them and secret deals being made so certain alliances wouldn't have to fight other alliances and some alliances not using nukes so other people on their front get all nuked to hell.

If you can tell me with a straight face that those events had nothing to do with people not checking their egos at the door I will send you 50 tech.

The fact that a few people got out of line at a few specific times says nothing about the collective group or the nature of those in it in general. The practice of fronts dealing with their own wars and own surrender terms was the only way for this war to be reasonably conducted. Having a self appointed "leader" who tells others what is good for them, in my opinion and I would hope in yours as well, is extremely egotistical and exactly the kind of arrogance we all were so fed up with. If on certain fronts, there were some individuals who exhibited this type of unsavory charecteristic, that is inherently that fronts own issue to deal with and no one else's, as the alternative that you alluded too is much, much worse in the end.

[AirMe]

The fact that a few people got out of line at a few specific times says nothing about the collective group or the nature of those in it in general. The practice of fronts dealing with their own wars and own surrender terms was the only way for this war to be reasonably conducted. Having a self appointed "leader" who tells others what is good for them, in my opinion and I would hope in yours as well, is extremely egotistical and exactly the kind of arrogance we all were so fed up with. If on certain fronts, there were some individuals who exhibited this type of unsavory charecteristic, that is inherently that fronts own issue to deal with and no one else's, as the alternative that you alluded too is much, much worse in the end.

I honestly have no idea what we are arguing about anymore, and I don't want to argue with you

[Lord Brendan]

Because clearly, this was the first NPO led coalition ever.

Obviously I was referring to previous conflicts and not the current one. They couldn't help the fact that their allies turned into mice and tried to jump off the ship as it was sinking.

Surely the most recent example is the most relevant one? What does it matter if an NPO coalition 3 years ago was well organized, when the one in the most recent war was one of the least effective coalitions in history?

[Il Impero Romano]

I honestly have no idea what we are arguing about anymore, and I don't want to argue with you

lol Deal.

Basically, my point was don't generalize because a few people acted less than desirable in a few instances.

[Delta1212]

Rumors of alliances saying "Take these terms or we leave you on the front alone" and other alliances refusing to give terms because of old grudges that had nothing to do with them and secret deals being made so certain alliances wouldn't have to fight other alliances and some alliances not using nukes so other people on their front get all nuked to hell.

If you can tell me with a straight face that those events had nothing to do with people not checking their egos at the door I will send you 50 tech.

Fun war all around, wasn't it?

[AirMe]

Surely the most recent example is the most relevant one? What does it matter if an NPO coalition 3 years ago was well organized, when the one in the most recent war was one of the least effective coalitions in history?

Every conflict the NPO has fought in,save this one, they and their allies have provided us with a unified front. They kept their issues behind closed doors and supported each other on the world stage whether they agreed or not. It made them a much more intimidating force than Karma was. You knew they meant business and would stay until the job was done.

Edited August 4, 2009 by AirMe

[Haflinger]

Every conflict the NPO has fought in,save this one, they and their allies have provided us with a unified front. They kept their issues behind closed doors and supported each other on the world stage whether they agreed or not. It made them a much more intimidating force.

And believe me, frequently they didn't. Not just over the little things, either.

[Delta1212]

Every conflict the NPO has fought in,save this one, they and their allies have provided us with a unified front. They kept their issues behind closed doors and supported each other on the world stage whether they agreed or not. It made them a much more intimidating force than Karma was. You knew they meant business and would stay until the job was done.

I've been on the NPO side of a war once in the three years I've been here, so I can't speak to every instance. That said, regarding the war last summer that I was on that side for, I have to say... My god, the squabbling and pettiness in the back channels was unbearable. They were just much better at keeping people from !@#$%*ing about it publicly because, lets face it, that probably would have been a terrible move.

(Karma was a bit worse, I will say, though much of that probably has to do with significantly increased sized of the factions fighting and the fact that there was no core group to look to with regard to command. Public drama also didn't help).

Edited August 5, 2009 by Delta1212

[King Srqt]

And believe me, frequently they didn't. Not just over the little things, either.

As someone who was on more than one of those fronts I can attest to that. The north side of the web (yeah I went there), had a lot of internal disagreements and some of the alliances there outright hated each other but no way in hell were they ever going to let their enemies know that and that is why they dominated for so long.

Fortunately the personalities and egos in Q could not operate in that way once the pressure hit and that is why they fell and Karma's inability to do so even when they were a clear victor is why they will never be a world force like WUT and Q before them.

[Denial]

Actually, you did. If you still have access to the Karma boards, I'm sure that thread is still there for you to read in all it's glory.

You are entirely out of line and incorrect here, pezstar. Even moreso if this is specifically directed towards Vanguard. I know I and many others on Karma's Pacific front worked tirelessly to be as inclusive as possible for months, up until it was made necessary to restrict involvement and access to outside parties due to information leaks and derailments. In fact, with the possible exception of the GGA front, the Pacific front was by far the most transparent of them all. Cast your mind back to how some of the other peace settlements were conducted. Not to mention the countless conversations I personally had with you, Uhtred and Tyga throughout the entire war, providing updates and opportunities to offer advice.

Well deserved, sure, I'll buy that. Just? Hardly. No doubt that the NPO deserved some harsh terms but I would be a hypocrite if I didn't think or state that the NPO having to pay more tech than they actually have is ridiculous. Do not confuse testicular fortitude and having a heart. The first is something any idiot can have. The second it takes someone with some real balls to show instead of just going with the mob.

Do not confuse having a heart with being naive.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Revanche

[Tygaland]

I'm not going to wade into the whole OV reps issue as I honestly do not care. NPO agreed to terms that included a set amount of reps so who gets what is up to those involved on that front.

As far as the Karma communication issue. Speaking personally there were a number of issues that came up when peace terms started to be handed out and my opinion of those is already on the public record.

I will say that Vanguard were not one of the alliances I'd consider to have been exclusionary and from memory (I no longer have access to the Karma HQ and haven't in a long while) Revanche and Rafael were on the same page as myself on a large number of those issues.

Sadly, a precedent was set early on with terms that cascaded out of control afterwards which resulted in inconsistencies in terms handed out during this conflict. Now, it appears that the NPO and TPF fronts are bearing the brunt of these inconsistencies while those that planted the seeds of inconsistency sit back in judgement.

[Delta1212]

I'm not going to wade into the whole OV reps issue as I honestly do not care. NPO agreed to terms that included a set amount of reps so who gets what is up to those involved on that front.

As far as the Karma communication issue. Speaking personally there were a number of issues that came up when peace terms started to be handed out and my opinion of those is already on the public record.

I will say that Vanguard were not one of the alliances I'd consider to have been exclusionary and from memory (I no longer have access to the Karma HQ and haven't in a long while) Revanche and Rafael were on the same page as myself on a large number of those issues.

Sadly, a precedent was set early on with terms that cascaded out of control afterwards which resulted in inconsistencies in terms handed out during this conflict. Now, it appears that the NPO and TPF fronts are bearing the brunt of these inconsistencies while those that planted the seeds of inconsistency sit back in judgement.

The whole situation really was handled pretty terribly. We were a mess the first few days and then there didn't seem to be any way to alter the course that had been set more or less blindly during that time. I'm going to have to echo various sentiments and say that while communication on the whole was fairly awful (even between alliances on the same front at a few points in my experience), the NPO front was one of those least guilty of this issue for most if not all of the war period.

[Baldr]

Fun war all around, wasn't it?

Hell Yes.

I'm not going to wade into the whole OV reps issue as I honestly do not care. NPO agreed to terms that included a set amount of reps so who gets what is up to those involved on that front.

I agree with that. We agreed to terms, and we need to pay them. And Karma gets to decide to who.

As long as OV makes their aid slots available, I won't be complaining - we've got to send the reps out anyway, and it isn't our decision who benefits. The only thing that worries me is that all of the numbers thrown around are based on 100% efficiency, which never happens, no matter what alliance, and I don't expect OV to make 100% of their aid slots available for us to pay the reps. They certainly don't have 100% of their slots for us right now. Some are in use.

If they leave those slots open, then we can do our part.

But if they don't keep all of their slots open, that cuts down our chances to deliver it all on time. And we do have limits in the terms that we must adhere to. Minimum amount of tech moved every month, that sort of thing. We also can't simply ignore the rest of our reps to try and make sure OV receives all of the blood money they are asking for.

Besides simply using their slots for other things, there are other things that can go wrong. We could send aid and OV not accept it, or cancel it, and make us send it again. OV could argue, after the aid no longer shows, that we didn't send X or that we sent Y amount, not Z amount.

And one major issue is that the numbers thrown around here are based on every member of OV getting 1/25th of $1B and 1/25th of 50 tech. But that isn't what is happening.

Some of the OV nations are getting more than others. And that throws all the calculations on "They've got X slots, just divide by 25" thing out the window.

I worry that OV in particular (and by extension, karma as a whole) is going to try and drag out the terms.

Lets go with the extreme example (which is completely made up.)

Example : If OV said "All of these reps must be paid to SethB, nobody else", it would take ages to pay them off. And since we have to, by the terms, pay off a minimum of 1/12th of the total every month, and we have to pay off the total in 12 months, then only allowing us to send to one nation makes it impossible.

If Karma is just going to give us impossible tasks, then I don't see any reason in paying any reps at all. The thing that bothers me about OV getting so much is that I worry it's just leading to a nonsense reason to say "NPO didn't fulfill terms", by making the terms impossible.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. But there have been a whole lot of people yelling "DEATH TO THE NPO!" at me for a few months, so I think it's justified.

[Tygaland]

I agree with that. We agreed to terms, and we need to pay them. And Karma gets to decide to who.

As long as OV makes their aid slots available, I won't be complaining - we've got to send the reps out anyway, and it isn't our decision who benefits. The only thing that worries me is that all of the numbers thrown around are based on 100% efficiency, which never happens, no matter what alliance, and I don't expect OV to make 100% of their aid slots available for us to pay the reps. They certainly don't have 100% of their slots for us right now. Some are in use.

If they leave those slots open, then we can do our part.

But if they don't keep all of their slots open, that cuts down our chances to deliver it all on time. And we do have limits in the terms that we must adhere to. Minimum amount of tech moved every month, that sort of thing. We also can't simply ignore the rest of our reps to try and make sure OV receives all of the blood money they are asking for.

Besides simply using their slots for other things, there are other things that can go wrong. We could send aid and OV not accept it, or cancel it, and make us send it again. OV could argue, after the aid no longer shows, that we didn't send X or that we sent Y amount, not Z amount.

And one major issue is that the numbers thrown around here are based on every member of OV getting 1/25th of $1B and 1/25th of 50 tech. But that isn't what is happening.

Some of the OV nations are getting more than others. And that throws all the calculations on "They've got X slots, just divide by 25" thing out the window.

I worry that OV in particular (and by extension, karma as a whole) is going to try and drag out the terms.

Lets go with the extreme example (which is completely made up.)

Example : If OV said "All of these reps must be paid to SethB, nobody else", it would take ages to pay them off. And since we have to, by the terms, pay off a minimum of 1/12th of the total every month, and we have to pay off the total in 12 months, then only allowing us to send to one nation makes it impossible.

If Karma is just going to give us impossible tasks, then I don't see any reason in paying any reps at all. The thing that bothers me about OV getting so much is that I worry it's just leading to a nonsense reason to say "NPO didn't fulfill terms", by making the terms impossible.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. But there have been a whole lot of people yelling "DEATH TO THE NPO!" at me for a few months, so I think it's justified.

I'm pretty sure no one will support OV or anyone filling their aid slots with other transactions and then punishing the NPO for not paying their reps on schedule.

Speaking as an alliance who had to wrestle with other alliances placing their tech deals above accepting reps from the STA after the noCB war, I can tell you it is frustrating. But had those alliances used that as an excuse to attack the STA for non-compliance with the reps requirements, I doubt they would have got very far with it, even amongst their friends and allies.

If those people that accepted your surrender wanted the NPO dead, you'd have never received peace terms. Try not to buy into the bullcrap too much and your Cybernations experience will be much better for it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Zeta Defender]

Try not to buy into the bullcrap too much and your Cybernations experience will be much better for it.

You should make this Tyga's Second Law

[Tygaland]

You should make this Tyga's Second Law

I thought two laws would be greedy.

[Deadshot]

If only you knew.  It's no coincidence that  Sethb and Wentworth are best friends.  Wentworth, who is an operative for Citadel.  Take into account that TOP initiated the negotiations between NPO and OV in the first place, destroyed Moo's connection so that he could not halt the orders to destroy OV, and garnered them huge reparations so that they might join Citadel.

If only you knew...

Welp, cat's outta the bag

Whether any of us deem the reps appropriate or not is irrelevant. I personally think they are a bit much to dole out to a 26 man alliance but of course that is just an opinion, as OV and NPO obviously agreed on this. I just personally like knowing where the reps are going, for my own benefit.

[Jimmy2e]

1 billion $$ and 50K Tech for 26 nations.. adjust that number for ghosts & non-fighters.. about 80 mill and 3500 tech per nation... not bad for sparking a world war.

[Tygaland]

1 billion $ and 50K Tech for 26 nations.. adjust that number for ghosts & non-fighters.. about 80 mill and 3500 tech per nation... not bad for sparking a world war.

Well, you'd be an authority on profiting from wars you started. Ignoring the fact OV didn't start the war nor "spark" it.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Tygaland

[Heft]

I find this topic to be personally offensive, barbaric, an affront to my personal, national, alliance, and galactic sovereignty, insulting to aborigines, and morally repugnant.

[Tygaland]

I find this topic to be personally offensive, barbaric, an affront to my personal, national, alliance, and galactic sovereignty, insulting to aborigines, and morally repugnant.

The High Court of Wigglage will be busy...

[Thierra]

We have the fact that the NPO willfully and knowingly ran at OV and her allies. That kind of headstrong, ignorant, and downright vindictive behavior has been shut down and NPO is getting a dose of how the world really works now that they're off their pedestal. You can play shotgun diplomacy all you want but eventually it will catch up to you.

Sweetie, take the Kool Aid with little sips next time.

[Captain Flinders]

Sweetie, take the Kool Aid with little sips next time.

NPO didn't declare on OV knowing full well that their allies in VE and beyond would support them? I would find that odd considering the logs I read said that specifically. You can be pathetically sarcastic if you want. I have logic and fact on my side.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[Meer Republic]

Well, you'd be an authority on profiting from wars you started. Ignoring the fact OV didn't start the war nor "spark" it.

It would have happened anyway sure, but let's face it OV colluding with a spy ring certainly gave it a hefty shove along. Or are we still pretending that that wasn't what they were doing?

[Groucho Marx]

Good lord, you're making NPO more than quadruble your total tech? And 1 billion? That's a bit ridiculous, why in the world did you post this? What good did you think would come of it?

Well, let's see here...NPO Attacks OV, an alliance that's excessively smaller than NPO and they fought for quite some time. I'm sure the damage done to an already small alliance was quite a bit, so why their rep numbers are ridiculous, especially considering they're victims of aggression, alludes me.