Sileath and NSO

[Penguin]

Sileath, after someone seriously proposed the idea, this bloc happened fast and was signed pretty much overnight. That's probably because there was little hesitation by any of the leaders once the idea was presented. These alliances all fit together extremely well culturally and politically. Many of the leaders have known each other for the better part of this game (and some even beyond that) and the trust was present long before any written treaty. I can only imagine that your indignation stems more from shock and a feeling of entitlement than anything else. There are alliances that will debate every treaty at length with the membership and there are ones where the leaders sign them directly with the alliance's interests at heart. You were in one of the latter.

It is generally counterproductive to air grievances about your alliance to the public as you depart, especially if you intend to do so amicably. It can damage your relationships with former comrades and make us all look a little foolish. You seem like a genuinely nice person (duck?) and I suppose you're welcome to learn these lessons through personal experience rather than advice if that works better for you. Perhaps you'll find a way where others have failed.

mundane issues, such as ... Penguin from Polaris obsession with "finding the perfect herring."

Wait, that was your job? I thought you were just being a good friend. And how are fish, the collecting of fish, the catching of fish and the consumption of fish even remotely "mundane"?

Edited May 28, 2009 by Penguin

[Sileath]

It is generally counterproductive to air grievances about your alliance to the public as you depart, especially if you intend to do so amicably. It can damage your relationships with former comrades and make us all look a little foolish.

As I said in the OP, the reason for creating this thread was due to my being insulted in the Sileathonomics thread.

That thread did not mention NSO at all, but a NSO member had the urge to insult me in it and to specifically bring up (and lie about) aspects of my service in NSO. That's not going to fly. It's the same as me not going into NSO/STA/Frostbite thread and starting trouble, I expect NSO to not come into threads that don't concern them and needlessly start trouble. Disagreement is not the same as agenda-based insulting, I am aware of the difference, and so are all involved parties.

So, you have something to say about my service in NSO - out with it, and out with it in this thread, not in any other thread that does not relate to NSO.

[Griff]

1. Lack of communication from the government. This has been by far my #1 issue since I was head of Internal Affairs, and I had worked hard to make sure that government operations were being divulged to the citizenry in a timely matter. Following my departure from that role, communication from the government to the people was drastically reduced.

2. Ivan Moldavi said several times that NSO would not be signing treaty blocs. Terra-Cotta Pact was a treaty bloc, though it was a color sphere thing and the citizenry could see the negotiations taking place in the Brown alliance embassies.

3. Frostbite - a treaty bloc. This bloc was not at all talked about to the general NSO public. Having a treaty with STA and NpO are completely understandable and justified - no person in NSO would oppose them due to the history of those alliances and the NSO. Still, due to how many times that Ivan said that NSO would not be signing into treaty blocs its curious that such a dramatic change in paradigm of a leader would occur without the knowledge of the citizenry.

3a. This does not mean I oppose treaty blocs, just that if a leader says something over and over and it's a big issue with them, and then they completely reverse themselves, the people should know about it at least a few minutes before it hits the OWF.

4. Holy good gravy, people brought all their biases with them in NSO. The GGA-Athens-NPO thread was a mess. (I'm not including TPF because noone doubted mhawk's account of the events). We're talking about people screaming and swearing at me in the NSO channel because I'm refusing to automatically take an anti-GGA stance. In the history of NSO, GGA has never done anything against NSO. In fact, GGA assisted NSO by taking LadyDakota off of their ZI list so they could join. And I'm getting flamed to hell because of the position I'm taking in this thread searching for the truth (posting screenshots, putting together the evidence, instead of saying "OMG GGA FAILS CAUSE THEY'RE GGA") and it's like the biggest betrayal to them.

5. What's with the treaty with The Liquor Cabinet? You know their Theodore Roosevelt (what's the equivalent of that rank?) RandomInterrupt, like two days after he leaves NSO, publicly insults NSO for accepting baseballer as a member and says he'll laugh when baseballer fails.

6. The whole concept of government making decisions without telling the citizenry - I'm not even saying the people should have a choice, just for them to know - and then distracting them with shiny objects (the Frostbite sig) so they can go on a mass hail fest seems a little... yeah, a little NPO.

7. My Sileathonomics thread on these forums did not concern NSO to the degree to which I was insulted within it. That is the biggest motivation for this thread.

1: Oh yes your "man of the people" mindset. Now that was fun.

2: And? It's been said here already that circumstances change, and I wouldn't call either Frostbite or Terra Cotta a Q-sized bloc.

3: It's been stated elsewhere why the members weren't informed prior it's formation. Perhaps you should have spent more time searching for it or asking people than grooming your economic "idea".

4: And yet you happily put forward an idea to hit GGA during this war? I know that during the time you were in your "man of the people" mode, but I don't recall anyone else wanting to do it. GGA has never done anything against NSO, but you wanted NSO to do something to GGA. Not exactly consistent.

5: I wouldn't know anything about this so I'll leave it. I do love my Random though.

6: We've addressed the Frostbite thing already.

7: Not all ideas are good ones. What made it sadder is that you tried to post it here hoping that someone, somewhere, would like it. It was just bad, enough said.

You were a good worker, but you let that ego of yours bring you down.

[Penguin]

As I said in the OP, the reason for creating this thread was due to my being insulted in the Sileathonomics thread.

That thread did not mention NSO at all, but a NSO member had the urge to insult me in it and to specifically bring up (and lie about) aspects of my service in NSO. That's not going to fly. It's the same as me not going into NSO/STA/Frostbite thread and starting trouble, I expect NSO to not come into threads that don't concern them and needlessly start trouble. Disagreement is not the same as agenda-based insulting, I am aware of the difference, and so are all involved parties.

You'd be silly not to expect someone from NSO to get indignant after an OP that mentions them a lot. Putting this in public tends to escalate the hard feelings until you become combative and accusatory, even if you didn't personally start it. I take it that this is more of a revenge thread for some NSO members insulting your Sileathonomics thread? Instead of addressing the issues with the individual NSO members who insulted you, you've escalated your revenge to everyone in your former alliance, including many of the people that I am sure you still consider to be friends. No doubt some might be close enough friends to take this in stride, but I still don't see how anyone benefits from this or how the members who didn't flame the Sileathonomics thread deserved this. Your grievances were with specific people, but your statements above will affect them all.

So, you have something to say about my service in NSO - out with it, and out with it in this thread, not in any other thread that does not relate to NSO.

I don't really even know you. I was just trying to give you some advice and certainly not trying to pick at your service to an alliance of which I have never been a part. I'm just not a fan of publicly criticizing a former alliance, nor could I even imagine a scenario where I would do so simply because a handful of them offended me.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Penguin

[Sileath]

1: Oh yes your "man of the people" mindset. Now that was fun.

2: And? It's been said here already that circumstances change, and I wouldn't call either Frostbite or Terra Cotta a Q-sized bloc.

3: It's been stated elsewhere why the members weren't informed prior it's formation. Perhaps you should have spent more time searching for it or asking people than grooming your economic "idea".

4:

5: I wouldn't know anything about this so I'll leave it. I do love my Random though.

6: We've addressed the Frostbite thing already.

7: Not all ideas are good ones. What made it sadder is that you tried to post it here hoping that someone, somewhere, would like it. It was just bad, enough said.

You were a good worker, but you let that ego of yours bring you down.

1. Yes it was. The people were well informed.

2. I said in the OP that I don't oppose blocs, but prior to Ivan changing his position on NSO's involvement in blocs he should have said something to the people.

4. I edited that part out of the quote to give you a chance to remove that from your post. That was posted in the government forum, and it was one of several ideas from the citizenry that I brought to the attention of the rest of government for discussion.

7. If you don't like it, post about what's wrong with it. Intellectual debate is its own reward. The whole insulting as part of an agenda though is low class and it gets old. Check that thread and see if I haven't responded to every person who posted an intelligent reply talking about issues with the plan.

Don't fear ideas, and don't fear the people. Have them on your side.

[Griff]

Putting this in public tends to escalate the hard feelings until you become combative and accusatory, even if you didn't personally start it. I take it that this is more of a revenge thread for some NSO members insulting your Sileathonomics thread? Instead of addressing the issues with the individual NSO members who insulted you, you've escalated your revenge to your entire former alliance

Because he's never done that before, amirite?

[Sileath]

Your grievances were with specific people, but your statements above will affect them all.

1. The person doing the insulting is a member of government.

2. I brought this to the attention of Sith Lord Doppelganger via private query that I was being lied about in that thread, and received no reply.

3. I will not cheapen my economic thread (or any other thread) by replying to unintelligent posts.

Therefore, my best recourse was to take it public as a matter of record that this feuding was being laid to rest.

[Griff]

4. I edited that part out of the quote to give you a chance to remove that from your post. That was posted in the government forum, and it was one of several ideas from the citizenry that I brought to the attention of the rest of government for discussion.

Because it's not like you've ever posted internal stuff yourself.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Griff

[George the Great]

2: And? It's been said here already that circumstances change, and I wouldn't call either Frostbite or Terra Cotta a Q-sized bloc.

4: And yet you happily put forward an idea to hit GGA during this war? I know that during the time you were in your "man of the people" mode, but I don't recall anyone else wanting to do it. GGA has never done anything against NSO, but you wanted NSO to do something to GGA. Not exactly consistent.

I'd just like to point out that these two statements are inconsistent. Circumstances can change, but if someone shows that their mind has changed prior to acting contrary to what their perceived beliefs are, then they are not being inconsistent. That's called changing your mind. I believe Athens was fighting GGA during this war, which is why they're protecting them now.

That is all. Good luck in Athens, Sileath, they're a great bunch over there.

Edited May 28, 2009 by George the Great

[Sileath]

Because he's never done that before, amirite?

That piece, written by you, submitted to NSO Media, when I was head of Internal Affairs, was cleared for public posting by Ivan Moldavi. It was a miscommunication that it was posted publicly against your wishes, as that was a wish you expressed to Media but not to me. I apologized for that when you brought it to my attention.

[Griff]

That piece, written by you, submitted to NSO Media, when I was head of Internal Affairs, was cleared for public posting by Ivan Moldavi. It was a miscommunication that it was posted publicly against your wishes, as that was a wish you expressed to Media but not to me. I apologized for that when you brought it to my attention.

And totally not a payback for anything.

[Sovardie]

Hey my little Ocelot,

you will be welcomed back if I have anything to say in it. I still believe you did all you did in good faith and strong believe for our best. It were good and entertaining times with you.

I wont even start to bother any of the readers here with a reply to your points, but i think in some you are right and some are solved best for all participating alliances. But living in an alliance needs the devotion and good will of all people involved and discussion is ok. You did a lot good things and i hope you come back once we all get a bit calm about that.

Was fun with you. not easy but definetly fun.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Sovardie

[Chief Savage Man]

I know I speak for all of the Liquor Cabinet when I say that Random has every right to speak his mind about something especially when he has facts to back his position up.

[DJPenguin]

I think I speak for...myself...when I say that in the case of Random insulting NSO for accepting baseballer: Yup, they had it coming. Mr. Random is dead on the ball.

Best of luck though, Sileath.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Private channels for the win.

This is fail.

That is really all I should say here.

However, that isn't my style.

So, first, Sileath, you were one of the hardest workers in NSO. Were being the operative word there. When you had power and position you were happy to serve the Order. When you lost it you resigned in a huff, moved departments and pretty much sat the bench. That is your right but those aren't qualities of a leader. You failed. The lesson is whether or not you take that failure and press forward, which is what I thought you to be doing, or you quit, which is what you have apparently done. Without consultation or comment to myself, which I find personally insulting.

Second, Frostbite is not some elaborate treaty bloc that reaches into the massed tangle of the web. It is non-chaining and most of the aspects are optional. Therefore, if one party acts in a manner that is against our beliefs or values we will withhold support. If they are attacked without cause, that is a different story. I have never stated that the NSO is stagnant and will not progress through time.

In fact, I have been having discussion with the Council of Peace (which you are not a part of and therefore wouldn't be privy to even though you seem to think you know exactly what went on within the alliance at all times in all areas) about the third path. For us, the third path remains in that we will not seek to enmesh ourselves into countless treaties or ties. To our credit, we have only a handful of such treaties and aside from some activities on Brown we have no other diplomatic pursuits ongoing.

But for the Cyberverse as a whole, the third path is becoming more and more remote. The explanation is simple. The dichotomy is currently ripping one another apart. This leaves sizable vacuums and room for multiple paths, not just the "hegemony", "karma" and "sith" ones. The world is becoming something new, something different. And the NSO will not be left behind.

As far as someone from outside the alliance deciding to insult one of our members or the alliance as a whole for accepting them, so what? How does that hurt you? How does that effect NSO? We accept pretty much anyone. I personally had baseballer removed from our chatroom while he was in Polar because I didn't care for his foul language. And? Big deal if people don't like the NSO. Who cares if people dislike some of our members?

The failings others see in certain nations is often times because they themselves do not have the know how, experience of sheer charisma to confront such behavior and curb it into productive activity. Hell, most of our leadership has been hated abroad by multiple people at multiple times and yet we are still successful.

Allowing outsiders, and that is what RandomInterrupt is, an outsider in regards to NSO membership, to dictate your internal value to an alliance is absurd. The Sith have no such humble attitudes, no meekness, no weak wills. The strong will survive.

What does that make you?

[agnews]

sileath

this isent suprising comming from you

The OP is weak

[Reachwind]

I thought you did good work as a member of NSO even though I disagreed with a lot of your stated opinions.

As to the internal workings of our alliance since you are no longer a member it does not concern you. At all.

[ColchestersKing]

Right,

I have read the OP on here and while i cant comment on his work behind the scenes in NSO i can comment on sileath the man i spent time with in NPO, OOC: It was a different character, Sileath you will know me as your old trade buddy told you i'd be back

Sileath was easily one of the hardest working and more over most dedicated members of the alliance, he grabbed new members by the short and curleys and made sure that they learned all they could and more over were able to ENJOY the game as well as the comeradery,

he has always been on OWF and has regularly sang the praises of NSO something that almost made me apply,

but then comes the problem as people call it his "Attitude" well for my part that "Attitude" as you call it is probably his best feature but people react badly to it and in my opinion that says more about them than him, yes there has been times where he has not ran with the sheep on an issue BUT he is more often than not right.

Sileath i personally would love to have you in iFOK, if things dont go well in Athens then please....come join us,

As for NSO and moreover Ivan; in the most respectful way posible i really dont think you appriciate what you lost

[New Frontier]

I'm disappointed in your handling of this Sileath.

I am aware of the various issues between Sileath and the Sith, not all of which have been discussed here. However, that said, you are my friend, Sileath, and if you ever need anything, let me know.

[nadabethyname]

bad sileath. there's alot of jerks in NSO, you were one of them. thanks for the hard work and entertainment, it's too bad you allowed yourself to be driven away

the strong survive, esp. the my idols

[TehChron]

As for NSO and moreover Ivan; in the most respectful way posible i really dont think you appriciate what you lost

Oh, we're well aware of what we did. No one ever said that denial was a trait we possessed.

Actually, this all came down to SIleath. If he feels I trolled him out of the alliance, then that is his own fault. But his attitude is what lead to his loss of position via the Challenge system, as well as the general mockery of what he attempted to do with Sileathonomics immediately before his resignation.

It wasn't just an attitude he possessed, it was bald-faced egomania. He picked fights often. He also lost fights, and then he resigned.

What else is there to say aside from what Ivan already proclaimed?

1. The challenge system (which is one of the best features of NSO) is hindered if the people don't know what policies and actions are taking place to be challenged. IA always recruits, because IA has a great leader of recruitment. What about the progress of the Academy? I had to specifically call out IA in a Debate Forum thread just to get them to condescend to explain what they've been doing with their time.

Not so, I was never masked as Media, but I never let that stop me from doing work and then couping Margrave on the basis of that work.

What's your excuse?

[Ivan Moldavi]

Right,

I have read the OP on here and while i cant comment on his work behind the scenes in NSO i can comment on sileath the man i spent time with in NPO, OOC: It was a different character, Sileath you will know me as your old trade buddy told you i'd be back

Sileath was easily one of the hardest working and more over most dedicated members of the alliance, he grabbed new members by the short and curleys and made sure that they learned all they could and more over were able to ENJOY the game as well as the comeradery,

he has always been on OWF and has regularly sang the praises of NSO something that almost made me apply,

but then comes the problem as people call it his "Attitude" well for my part that "Attitude" as you call it is probably his best feature but people react badly to it and in my opinion that says more about them than him, yes there has been times where he has not ran with the sheep on an issue BUT he is more often than not right.

Sileath i personally would love to have you in iFOK, if things dont go well in Athens then please....come join us,

As for NSO and moreover Ivan; in the most respectful way posible i really dont think you appriciate what you lost

I do not believe anyone in this thread has stated that Sileath was lazy.

But, anyone can be replaced. That is the Sith way.

Once you begin to believe you are not replaceable then you have lost the true path of service to the Order.

[Chimaera]

You're a good guy, Sileath, and I believe you were working for the good of both NSO and her members during your time there.

That said, I'm not sure this will help your cause.

[ColchestersKing]

I do not believe anyone in this thread has stated that Sileath was lazy.

But, anyone can be replaced. That is the Sith way.

Once you begin to believe you are not replaceable then you have lost the true path of service to the Order.

I must point out i did not state anyone called him lazy, i mearly pointed out how much of an asset i believe he was.....however to answer returnofchron's point....yes sileath has an ego of truly epic proportions however so do the greatest leaders.....and it can be pointed in the right direction, im not going to argue about his tenure in NSO as i previously stated i was not there but i can as i said vouch for him as i know him

[TehChron]

I must point out i did not state anyone called him lazy, i mearly pointed out how much of an asset i believe he was.....however to answer returnofchron's point....yes sileath has an ego of truly epic proportions however so do the greatest leaders.....and it can be pointed in the right direction, im not going to argue about his tenure in NSO as i previously stated i was not there but i can as i said vouch for him as i know him

Yes, it can be. But sileath let it bring him down. He decided to pick fights and left when the end result didn't suit him.

That's not a lie. That's not an insult. That is literally what happened.

If he wants to deny it, he can feel free to do so. But it's the truth. I do a lot of things on the OWF, but lying has, to my knowledge, never been one of them.