A Statement from Doomhouse

[Earogema]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300745700' post='2672615']
You just said it, you wouldn't do it because it wouldn't be practical and you wouldn't win, not because you wouldn't want to, or wouldn't have have attacked us in a situation where you would have won.
[/quote]
So you would have rolled them if you couldn't have won? Typical, MK is the same as the NPO. How horrifying.

fakeedit: Yes this is sarcasm.

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='Varianz' timestamp='1300721285' post='2672271']
This is correct, except that Hydra did not request our assistance as far as I know.

[/quote]

This is false, we requested you to prepare to help us from before we were even attacked. It was made clear that your paperless relationship with STA and Polar would trump our treaty..

[Don Chele]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1300741365' post='2672540']
Okay, I'll bite; perhaps you are right on that count (although I think your definition needs a "threat of"; otherwise I believe it's considered robbery). In that case, all reps are extortion unless they are offered voluntarily after the cessation of battle. Reps are goods promised under the threat of continued force, thus extortion, regardless of how the battle started.
[/quote]
The extortion of extra-planetary intellectual property couched as reparations under intra-planetary threat of violence, however, is possibly actionable in an extra-planetary court of law if it can be proven that intra-planetary violence affects extra-planetary tangible resources, which can surely be proven at least in limited cases (regardless of the commandments or intervention of Admin Almighty, although arguably a violation of those commandments as well). It would seem to be wise for alliances to therefore limit their "reparation" demands to intra-planetary resources and property.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1300745282' post='2672605']
I will chop away the excrement from your post and answer the question you posted. The simple English I was referring to was in my last post, when I referred to pointing out how you did the exact same thing you accused us of doing immediately before accusing us of doing it. Do you follow me here, pilgrim? When you posted your impression of [i]why Doomhouse is doing something[/i], you presented it as fact, not opinion. You gettin' this, cowpoke?
[/quote]

Where is this proof? I presented proof showing that what I stated were facts. You getting that, cowpoke? SO again, no I am not doing the same thing I accused you of since I actually used facts to back up what I stated.

Ya'll don't have facts to back up your claims against NPO, just opinions about why they are wrong. So I do think it is you who needs a lesson in reading comprehension. But please continue to claim it is me. It is quite amusing to watch you flounder about like a clown.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300745585' post='2672612']
What's hard to understand is the absolutes you deal in; You act like every victorious alliance [i]has[/i] to extort funds from the losing alliance, and like it'd be some giant catastrophe if it didn't occur.[/quote]
Three alliances have surrendered to us thus far, and two are paying reps. You are immediately incorrect.

[quote]Sure, you can demand all the money you want. My point to you is that it, at a minimum, shows you have no honor.

All [i]I[/i] really care about is honor. Other people care about other things, I care about honor.
[/quote]
I could care less about honor, for numerous reasons, including the fact that it's always the losing alliance who blathers on about it.

[nippy]

[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1300746243' post='2672625']
The extortion of extra-planetary intellectual property couched as reparations under intra-planetary threat of violence, however, is possibly actionable in an extra-planetary court of law if it can be proven that intra-planetary violence affects extra-planetary tangible resources, which can surely be proven at least in limited cases (regardless of the commandments or intervention of Admin Almighty, although arguably a violation of those commandments as well). It would seem to be wise for alliances to therefore limit their "reparation" demands to intra-planetary resources and property.
[/quote]

Your post read like a rollercoaster.


[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1300746391' post='2672626']
Ya'll don't have facts
[/quote]

Get a dog, little loggy....get a dog.

I now see that if I were ever to question whether something is a fact or just an opinion, you will be a bit closer towards the end of the list of people I would seek for advice. Regardless of stance, a person should be able to identify the difference between the two. You are unable to identify the difference, and instead continue to spew forth as many YIP YIP YEEHAW words as possible in order to confuse those with logical arguments in preparation. I'm sorry you are unable to construct a saddle that matches your 10 gallon hat.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1300746243' post='2672625']
The extortion of extra-planetary intellectual property couched as reparations under intra-planetary threat of violence, however, is possibly actionable in an extra-planetary court of law if it can be proven that intra-planetary violence affects extra-planetary tangible resources, which can surely be proven at least in limited cases (regardless of the commandments or intervention of Admin Almighty, although arguably a violation of those commandments as well). It would seem to be wise for alliances to therefore limit their "reparation" demands to intra-planetary resources and property.
[/quote]
Congratulations, you have obfuscated your point to such a degree that I cannot be entirely certain whether or not I understand it. I will, however, assure you that we will not ask for terms that require a ruler to alter their moon and/or mars wonders.

[Bob Janova]

What this comes down to is that Doomhouse believe they are justified in fighting a war for purely geostrategic reasons, with no conventional CB for it, and with an objective which is, essentially, 'roll NPO'. And NPO and friends, as well as some other people (like me!), don't agree. At the moment the amoral alliances have the balance of power, just like in the Hegemony days. The current small side need to adapt their game* to that reality, and make a long term plan to do something about it.

As for VE's position, you should probably ask somewhere that won't immediately get buried under 100 posts. I'm sure Impero isn't wading through this whole thread. Since we have two direct bloc allies at war though it doesn't take a genius to work out that we support them in obtaining an advantageous resolution to the war.

[eyriq]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1300748523' post='2672658']
What this comes down to is that Doomhouse believe they are justified in fighting a war for purely geostrategic reasons, with no conventional CB for it, and with an objective which is, essentially, 'roll NPO'. And NPO and friends, as well as some other people (like me!), don't agree. At the moment the amoral alliances have the balance of power, just like in the Hegemony days. The current small side need to adapt their game* to that reality, and make a long term plan to do something about it.

As for VE's position, you should probably ask somewhere that won't immediately get buried under 100 posts. I'm sure Impero isn't wading through this whole thread. Since we have two direct bloc allies at war though it doesn't take a genius to work out that we support them in obtaining an advantageous resolution to the war.
[/quote]

The originating brain-trust may like to call themselves 'amoral' but the action itself abstracted from their desires isn't amoral in the slightest; in fact I'd argue that it is quite in the range of moral. NPO has a unique collection of immoral behaviors to their credit, in fact in this they are quite exceptional. Their material reality has changed but like Roq pointed out there has been no evidence that their personality has changed in the slightest. This war is preemptive on more than one scale and someone had to have the balls to do it.

[Monster]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1300749055' post='2672669']
The originating brain-trust may like to call themselves 'amoral' but the action itself abstracted from their desires isn't amoral in the slightest; in fact I'd argue that it is quite in the range of moral. NPO has a unique collection of immoral behaviors to their credit, in fact in this they are quite exceptional. Their material reality has changed but like Roq pointed out there has been no evidence that their personality has changed in the slightest. This war is preemptive on more than one scale and someone had to have the balls to do it.
[/quote]

The last part is important. A lot of people knew something like this would happen at some point because most people still hated NPO and didn't think they had changed at all, especially within the leaderships of alliances. We had a strategic reason for doing it with the VE-NpO war, but it wasn't really like NPO was just another alliance. Something was going to be done about it. "Roll NPO" wasn't a foreign concept outside of DH/PB. That's kind of why it would have made no sense for NPO to stay out of this to begin with. A hostile world would have all its efforts focused solely on NPO with Polar out of the way.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Letum]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300749533' post='2672674']
The last part is important. A lot of people knew something like this would happen at some point because most people still hated NPO and didn't think they had changed at all, especially within the leaderships of alliances. We had a strategic reason for doing it with the VE-NpO war, but it wasn't really like NPO was just another alliance. Something was going to be done about it. "Roll NPO" wasn't a foreign concept outside of DH/PB.
[/quote]

Yes, we are very well aware of that. It is that very strategic reason that forms one of they key problems we would have with considering your offer. Because, save for our diminished [i]ability[/i] to pose a threat, none of the other factors that formed the backbone of your reasoning will have changed as a result of this war. And since our ability would eventually be rebuilt during peace, your strategic reason will return within a few months. If the cause of our meeting was us committing an act of war or activating a treaty, our reasoning would be different, because we would not expect that reason to reappear by default. But it is much harder to remove geostrategic interests than it is to not repeat actions - and in that context, the kind of long-term vulnerability that stems from losing what remains of our stronger nations and their rebuilding capacity is something that cannot be done lightly.

Not that the righteousness of the entire affair does not also factor into our decision of course. There are intangible things beyond our pixels that have a value attached to them.

[Monster]

Simple answer to that: since your approach prior to this affair didn't cause people to stop disliking you or be suspicious of you, you can always try another one.

Here's what your approach entailed: being essentially the same alliance but constrained due to a weakened political position.

The only thing that changed about NPO to put it into Francoist terms were the material conditions.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='eyriq' timestamp='1300749055' post='2672669']
The originating brain-trust may like to call themselves 'amoral' but the action itself abstracted from their desires isn't amoral in the slightest; in fact I'd argue that it is quite in the range of moral. NPO has a unique collection of immoral behaviors to their credit, in fact in this they are quite exceptional. Their material reality has changed but like Roq pointed out there has been no evidence that their personality has changed in the slightest. This war is preemptive on more than one scale and someone had to have the balls to do it.
[/quote]
Well. I don't think our personality's gonna change any from this war. If anything, we're feeling kind of vindicated.

[Letum]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1300751885' post='2672700']
Simple answer to that: since your approach prior to this affair didn't cause people to stop disliking you or be suspicious of you, you can always try another one.

Here's what your approach entailed: being essentially the same alliance but constrained due to a weakened political position.

The only thing that changed about NPO to put it into Francoist terms were the material conditions.
[/quote]

Yeah, the "just prove you've changed/are not a threat" thing is a bit too abstract to risk what's left of our strength on. Quite frankly, it's extremely easy to find reasons to see an alliance you dislike as a threat - hell, if I were in your shoes at the end of this war, I would very much expect the alliance that was just screwed over to have a high probability of wanting some form of payback - and would be on the lookout for the smallest sign of that, though that does not mean our respective responses to those sings would be anything alike.

And anyways, isn't the OP supposed to be preaching the end of "silence for fear of persecution"?

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1300752692' post='2672711']
Well. I don't think our personality's gonna change any from this war. If anything, we're feeling kind of vindicated.
[/quote]
So are you saying that apology thread was insincere?

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1300753778' post='2672732']
So are you saying that apology thread was insincere?
[/quote]
I mean, we're feeling vindicated for actions we have taken since the end of the Karma war till today.

[Monster]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1300753626' post='2672727']
Yeah, the "just prove you've changed/are not a threat" thing is a bit too abstract to risk what's left of our strength on. Quite frankly, it's extremely easy to find reasons to see an alliance you dislike as a threat - hell, if I were in your shoes at the end of this war, I would very much expect the alliance that was just screwed over to have a high probability of wanting some form of payback - and would be on the lookout for the smallest sign of that, though that does not mean our respective responses to those sings would be anything alike.

And anyways, isn't the OP supposed to be preaching the end of "silence for fear of persecution"?
[/quote]

You're the one bringing it up as a concern. Can't have it both ways.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1300753626' post='2672727']
Yeah, the "just prove you've changed/are not a threat" thing is a bit too abstract to risk what's left of our strength on. Quite frankly, it's extremely easy to find reasons to see an alliance you dislike as a threat - hell, if I were in your shoes at the end of this war, I would very much expect the alliance that was just screwed over to have a high probability of wanting some form of payback - and would be on the lookout for the smallest sign of that, though that does not mean our respective responses to those sings would be anything alike.

And anyways, isn't the OP supposed to be preaching the end of "silence for fear of persecution"?
[/quote]
It is the end of silence for fear of persecution, because they're trying to kill off everyone who doesn't agree with them. Nobody left to fear persecution, nobody is silent anymore!

And yeah, the whole "prove that you changed next time" rationale is a load of bunk. They did prove that they changed, while being baited and taunted for a year with multiple attempts to drag Pacifica into a new war, as soon as the aid flow from Karma stopped.

It is beyond absurd to expect that they won't roll NPO and demand more stupid !@#$ at the next available opportunity.

Like I said, you broke the conventions, and now you have to deal with a complete lack of trust that you're going to have a change of heart and adhere to the conventions after this war. You spent that trust to get this war, because you are impatient children.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300755404' post='2672751']
And yeah, the whole "prove that you changed next time" rationale is a load of bunk. [b]They did prove that they changed[/b], while being baited and taunted for a year with multiple attempts to drag Pacifica into a new war, as soon as the aid flow from Karma stopped.
[/quote]

How did they do that?

The only thing NPO has really done since Karma is their periodic government announcements about how evil their captors were. Not the best way to generate good will.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1300755783' post='2672755']
How did they do that?

The only thing NPO has really done since Karma is their periodic government announcements about how evil their captors were. Not the best way to generate good will.
[/quote]
Would you respond with kindness and good will if you captors tried to drag you into a war at every available chance, and constantly roamed the forums telling everyone how evil you are?

No, I doubt it.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300756103' post='2672761']
Would you respond with kindness and good will if you captors tried to drag you into a war at every available chance, and constantly roamed the forums telling everyone how evil you are?

No, I doubt it.
[/quote]
That doesn't answer the question. How exactly did they "prove" they've changed? Only thing I've seen them do is that really insincere apology done mid-war.

[Sir Humphrey]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1300745700' post='2672615']
How is the idea that MK deliberately provoked and wanted to roll NPO mutually exclusive from the idea that NPO deliberately provoked and wanted to roll MK? That's a red herring.[/quote]
As a member of MK, is this your understanding of the rationale for the war, i.e. that NPO deliberately provoked and wanted to roll MK, so MK attacked NPO to neutralise it as a potential future threat?

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1300756103' post='2672761']
Would you respond with kindness and good will if you captors tried to drag you into a war at every available chance, and constantly roamed the forums telling everyone how evil you are?

No, I doubt it.
[/quote]

So you agree that NPO has demonstrated nothing other than passive-aggressive hatred of the G15 and its allies since the Karma War?

What we have here is two groups that dislike each other, neither of which seems to desire repaired relations. Unfortunately for NPO, they are the weaker of the two groups.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Judge X' timestamp='1300721219' post='2672270']
If this is not the same war then why the "preempt" because NPO was gonna join in the Polaris war? It it in 118 pages so far. Also, If it is not the same war then why did all of the peace terms require that Alliances have a non-entry on the DH-NPO front? Should have put your thinking cap on this morning. You sound dumber than a Box of Rocks. I can throw in all of the surrender thread links if you would like?

Edit: Spelling
[/quote]

You do know that different fronts of the same war don't make it different wars, don't you?

Actually it's kind of interesting if you think of it (assuming it's within your capacities that is), because were it not for DH'a pre-emptive attack on NPO there would have been only two fronts. NpO-VE and AZTEC-Sparta. And in that case NPO would have been peripheral because they would have chained into fighting on the NpO front instead of having a battle front of their own. No doubt all of this was the same war. Reading comprehension for the win.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1300746829' post='2672630']
Get a dog, little loggy....get a dog.

I now see that if I were ever to question whether something is a fact or just an opinion, you will be a bit closer towards the end of the list of people I would seek for advice. Regardless of stance, a person should be able to identify the difference between the two. You are unable to identify the difference, and instead continue to spew forth as many YIP YIP YEEHAW words as possible in order to confuse those with logical arguments in preparation. I'm sorry you are unable to construct a saddle that matches your 10 gallon hat.
[/quote]

Wonderful. Again without any actual substance or refuting argument. Just a bunch of insults and crap spewed forth. Maybe if you tell me what exactly was not fact about my statement instead of stating I simply don't know, you would actually be able to refute my statement.

Do you even know what you are arguing or are you arguing for the sake of insulting? It appears you have no clue what you are actually arguing but simply wish to insult me. If you actually wanted to argue, you would have at least attempted to refute what I stated instead of simply insulting. Yet, i am the one without a logical argument? You don't even have an argument period. But please continue on, it truly does amuse me to watch you act as if you know what you are doing.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' timestamp='1300755783' post='2672755']
How did they do that?

The only thing NPO has really done since Karma is their periodic government announcements about how evil their captors were. Not the best way to generate good will.
[/quote]

I will be honest, the fact that they sat back and except the occasional thread on the forum, did absolutely nothing, generates a feeling that they have changed. Why? Simple. If it were the old NPO, they would be out and about trying to gather and ally every friggin alliance that breathes in order to become the Hegemony once more and rule CN.

Apparently, they did not engage in such tactics which to me, shows that they had changed at least somewhat. Maybe not to the maximum liking of most, but to me at least, they had changed to an extent. Sometimes, change is slow in coming partially because many are simply unwilling to grant NPO a chance to show they have changed and others simply because they won't believe it period.