An Announcement from The Sweet Oblivion

[Mathias]

[font="Georgia"]It's funny seeing people acting surprised over this. As if it's shocking that Athens isn't as bad as everyone's forced perceptions made them out to be.

Classy move Athens, as per usual.[/font]

[watchman]

This was classy by Athens, but if I recall correctly, nobody was as classy as GATO. We dropped a lot of nukes on GATO, and I don't remember them asking for a thing.

[mdnss69]

[quote name='Gopherbashi' timestamp='1291906725' post='2534867']
You know, you try too hard sometimes.
[/quote]

That your best retort? Nothing factual or anything, just... that?

And at least I agree with the second statement Watchman said. Kudos to GATO.

[Gopherbashi]

[quote name='mdnss69' timestamp='1291910107' post='2534890']
That your best retort? Nothing factual or anything, just... that?
[/quote]
Yes, exactly that. When someone sees that their former enemy is unduly suffering and shows some mercy, and you can only find evil in the situation; yes, you're trying too hard. Take a step back and recognise when someone does a little bit of good - even when it's done by your opponents - instead of seeking to aimlessly trash everything that moves.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1291904353' post='2534856']
[b]A-t-h-e-n-s[/b], you need it spelled out for you. The "gesture" of writing off some reps after spending most of the last two years gobbling up reps is the PR attempt not the announcement. Unfortunately they cant erase the last 2 years with a single gesture.
[/quote]

I honestly thought the MK & friends were exhagerating when they said you usually say non-sense for sport, but now when I see you arguing with people who know very much more about a situation as if you owned the reason itself I start to see what they meant.

[C Mos]

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' timestamp='1291862400' post='2534471']
You'll get over it?
[/quote]
Get over this injustice? I think not.

[Bob Janova]

It is a classy move, but no auxiliary alliance should be given reps that drag on for 8 months in the first place. Even for a primary target (like NPO in Karma, the obvious example) it is arguably too long.

[Andre27]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1291923837' post='2535027']
It is a classy move, but no auxiliary alliance should be given reps that drag on for 8 months in the first place. Even for a primary target (like NPO in Karma, the obvious example) it is arguably too long.
[/quote]

I tend to agree. Karma was about payback, but terms such as the ones mentioned especially for an alliance the size of TSO was harsh beyond compare.
I applaud that the remaining debt is canceled, but to see such leftovers from a war this long ago makes me sad.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1291923837' post='2535027']
It is a classy move, but no auxiliary alliance should be given reps that drag on for 8 months in the first place. Even for a primary target (like NPO in Karma, the obvious example) it is arguably too long.
[/quote]
TSO made a direct attack on C&G and so was not a secondary 'target' but a primary aggressor as they initiated the conflict.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1291928716' post='2535081']
TSO made a direct attack on C&G and so was not a secondary 'target' but a primary aggressor as they initiated the conflict.
[/quote]

If they had waited a day and countered whoever declared on TOP, would that have made changed things all that much?

[Duke Nukem]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1291881745' post='2534747']
Why you so mad lately, Schatt? Is it WANA being in CoJ..he's enough to drive anyone mad
[/quote]

I don't know why I was even mentioned in this thread but it seems the haters hunger .

Anywho good luck to TSO in moving foward.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1291923837' post='2535027']
It is a classy move, but no auxiliary alliance should be given reps that drag on for 8 months in the first place. Even for a primary target (like NPO in Karma, the obvious example) it is arguably too long.
[/quote]
I don't believe anybody expected them to drag on for eight months. You'll recall that at the time of war and peace TSO was still a statistically impressive force. At about 60 members and 55k tech in reparations, TSO owed about 917 tech per member. At a payment rate of 50 tech per member per cycle they could have finished in a little over five months (and at perfect efficiency of 250 T/M/C, just over a month). It also wasn't a particularly auxiliary alliance--it was core member of TOP's preemptive strike against CnG and surrendered in the Easter Sunday Accords, fighting the full length of the war. As a result, TSO faced heavy reparations for its unprovoked attack. And finally--it was all indirect tech, a concoction at the time that was thought to be a good way to keep reparations sufficiently large without being excessively devastating to the surrendering party. As it turns out, tech-sellers are increasingly difficult to find, which prolonged reparations.

In the end, TSO paid out (I think somebody mentioned earlier in the thread) about 24,000 tech before this waiving and will pay out a little bit more to the last concerned party. Had somebody proposed 25,000 in reparations at the time of peace (417 T/M; 9 cycles at 50 T/M/C and 2 cycles at 250 T/M/C), they'd have gotten funny looks for going so easy on a core opposition. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'd still rather secure reps that are too high and commute them later than secure reps that are too low and be S.O.L.

[Banksy]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1291929264' post='2535087']
If they had waited a day and countered whoever declared on TOP, would that have made changed things all that much?
[/quote]
Yes, we wouldn't have demanded 'large' reps and there wouldn't be this thread. I don't believe any secondary alliances in that war were given reps by C&G (Legion, in fact, is the only one I can immediately think of, and that wasn't handled by us). Any reps would have been nominal rather than punitive.

[Ardus]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1291929264' post='2535087']
If they had waited a day and countered whoever declared on TOP, would that have made changed things all that much?
[/quote]
Probably--they wouldn't have had to make peace with an angry nest of pit vipers looking to beat the hell out of the ringleaders who decided a preemptive attack was a good idea.

[supercoolyellow]

nvm, off topic

Edited December 9, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[Anakey]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1291930124' post='2535100']
I don't believe anybody expected them to drag on for eight months. You'll recall that at the time of war and peace TSO was still a statistically impressive force. At about 60 members and 55k tech in reparations, TSO owed about 917 tech per member. At a payment rate of 50 tech per member per cycle they could have finished in a little over five months (and at perfect efficiency of 250 T/M/C, just over a month). It also wasn't a particularly auxiliary alliance--it was core member of TOP's preemptive strike against CnG and surrendered in the Easter Sunday Accords, fighting the full length of the war. As a result, TSO faced heavy reparations for its unprovoked attack. And finally--it was all indirect tech, a concoction at the time that was thought to be a good way to keep reparations sufficiently large without being excessively devastating to the surrendering party. As it turns out, tech-sellers are increasingly difficult to find, which prolonged reparations.

In the end, TSO paid out (I think somebody mentioned earlier in the thread) about 24,000 tech before this waiving and will pay out a little bit more to the last concerned party. Had somebody proposed 25,000 in reparations at the time of peace (417 T/M; 9 cycles at 50 T/M/C and 2 cycles at 250 T/M/C), they'd have gotten funny looks for going so easy on a core opposition. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'd still rather secure reps that are too high and commute them later than secure reps that are too low and be S.O.L.
[/quote]

Never in TSO's history as an alliance have we had as many as 60 nations, we had about 45 at the end of the war. Things could have perhaps turned out quite differently had we not lost half our membership over the past months, and of those that remain 3 or 4 haven't been active at all due to rl and so actually paid no reps at all I think if you look at the proportion of the tech that was paid off you will find that the vast majority of the tech came from our own nations some sending 2, maybe even 3k of the tech that they had from the war as direct due to the severe lack and also trustworthiness of sellers. Reps used to be given out as a proportion of damage done to the defending alliance, in this case even with 16k of reps waivered the 24k should be ample compensation seeing as 95% of our wars were against GATO who by contrast asked no reps of us at all

[Ardus]

[quote name='Anakey' timestamp='1291931026' post='2535113']
Never in TSO's history as an alliance have we had as many as 60 nations, we had about 45 at the end of the war. Things could have perhaps turned out quite differently had we not lost half our membership over the past months, and of those that remain 3 or 4 haven't been active at all due to rl and so actually paid no reps at all I think if you look at the proportion of the tech that was paid off you will find that the vast majority of the tech came from our own nations some sending 2, maybe even 3k of the tech that they had from the war as direct due to the severe lack and also trustworthiness of sellers. Reps used to be given out as a proportion of damage done to the defending alliance, in this case even with 16k of reps waivered the 24k should be ample compensation seeing as 95% of our wars were against GATO who by contrast asked no reps of us at all
[/quote]
Really? I thought you peaked out higher than that. *shrug* Honest mistake, though I'll stand by the final point I made.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1291935304' post='2535191']
Really? I thought you peaked out higher than that. *shrug* Honest mistake, though I'll stand by the final point I made.
[/quote]

Having half the alliance quit the game because there are no perspectives of ever ending the terms is what you think it should be done to ensure that a large part of the reparations is obtained?

[NLights]

Very nice of you - <3 TSO.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1291923837' post='2535027']
It is a classy move, but no auxiliary alliance should be given reps that drag on for 8 months in the first place. Even for a primary target (like NPO in Karma, the obvious example) it is arguably too long.
[/quote]

You make it sound like they've been paying steady reps for 8 months. The fact is, after about two aid cycles shortly after the war myself and most of Athens hasn't received anything from TSO.

[Fallen Fool]

This reminds me of that time Moo let TDSM8 off of their reps.

[quote name='KingEd' timestamp='1291863229' post='2534489']
Apparently if you're NpO, the answer is yes...
[/quote]What?

[Azaghul]

[quote name='mdnss69' timestamp='1291899023' post='2534817']
Of course TSO are announcing it GH. Of course they are happy about this. They have just put a large part of the last year behind them and begin to move forward. Athens, after eight months and 24k tech later of stomping all over TSO say "Kai, we're all cool now so go on your own way". Then they are then hailed as heroes of mercy and leniency. That's hypocrisy.[/quote]
TSO didn't have to announce this. Other reps from the ESA have been waved and that hasn't been announced on these forums.

[quote name='Gopherbashi' timestamp='1291906725' post='2534867']
You know, you try too hard sometimes.[/quote]
He's still bitter about the 8 minute war, it's really quite amusing.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1291923837' post='2535027']
It is a classy move, but no auxiliary alliance should be given reps that drag on for 8 months in the first place. Even for a primary target (like NPO in Karma, the obvious example) it is arguably too long.[/quote]
The limit in the ESA on TSO's reps was 6 months. I don't think anyone intended for reps to take that long.

[Fyfe XIV]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1291954549' post='2535402']
This reminds me of that time Moo let TDSM8 off of their reps.

What?
[/quote]

It actually makes sense if you think about it. Also, comparing Athens to NPO

[Paramix]

[quote name='watchman' timestamp='1291908396' post='2534879']
This was classy by Athens, but if I recall correctly, nobody was as classy as GATO. We dropped a lot of nukes on GATO, and I don't remember them asking for a thing.
[/quote]

Yo Athens, I'm really happy for you imma let you finish. But GATO had one of the classiest moves of all time!....... One of the classiest moves of all time!

I had to, sorry.

[Fyfe XIV]

[quote name='Paramix' timestamp='1291966412' post='2535528']
Yo Athens, I'm really happy for you imma let you finish. But GATO had one of the classiest moves of all time!....... One of the classiest moves of all time!

I had to, sorry.
[/quote]

It's ok, we don't mind being out-classed by GATO