A Statement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289336299' post='2508433']
I don't think you know what your talking about.
[/quote]


I dunno... I think hes got you there, brani.

[Itsuki Koizumi]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289335880' post='2508425']
Yes, this is correct.

Exposing the truth is [i]never[/i] a crime. Parties in power try to make it into one to cover up their own misdeeds.
[/quote]
I meant the fact that their member was masked and they had to so reluctantly pay for their faults and then launching a PR campaign against MK.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289335292' post='2508413']
So you're saying, if I point a gun at your head and demand your wallet, you have no reason to complain once you handed your wallet over?

This is a really interesting view on morality you have here.
[/quote]No, that's not a good metaphor at all. It's more like this.

Person A gives person B, member of corporation C, payment for a service. Person B does not fulfill the service. Person A asks Corporation C to refund the money, and requests additional reparations for person B breaking the contract--- an amount clearly inflated and intended to be negotiated down. Corporation C, clearly not being very business savvy, agrees to the amount without attempting to negotiate it down, and then complains about the result borne from their lack of savvy to the local business journal without taking their grievances back to Person A.

Is any of this wrong?

Edited November 9, 2010 by JT Jag

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289335797' post='2508423']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm not sure what all you are trying to say when you point out that had I talked to Lebubu that we could possibly have paid less. What does three or six million off of fifteen million mater? MK demanded chump change. My issue was not with the amount but rather the fact that we owed anything at all. Repaying the harbor money is a different issue. The main reason they initially demanded money was because someone canceled a trade and they couldn't find a replacement. It was an absurd demand, but we had little choice but to pay. So talking to Lebubu would not have done much, and lowering the amount demanded of an already low demand would not have accomplished much. I'm not going to spend several hours of my time talking with hostile parties just to pay three or six million dollars less.[/color]
[/quote]
You don't know how much could have been taken off because you did not try. I have zero sympathy for those who do not take action in a situation because they simply [i]think[/i] that the outcome won't be favorable. A certain rogue spent over a month at war with us because he thought our only terms would involve wonder decommission or an impossible amount of reps, as we initially offered something along those lines. The final outcome was leagues away from his suspicions.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1289336461' post='2508440']
Is any of this wrong?
[/quote]
You forgot the part where Corporation C repeatedly tries to deny any culpability in the situation, creating a false "all or none" scenario.

Edited November 9, 2010 by ktarthan

[flak attack]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289335471' post='2508418']
You only disgree with it because it shows you in a bad light, if MK had posted private logs with NSO, you'd be hailing it.
[/quote]
Actually, we have a bit of tact and don't do that.

[Daikos]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1289336461' post='2508440']
No, that's not a good metaphor at all. It's more like this.

Person A gives person B, member of corporation C, payment for a service. Person B does not fulfill the service. Person A asks Corporation C to refund the money, and requests additional reparations for person B breaking the contract--- an amount clearly inflated and intended to be negotiated down. Corporation C, clearly not being very business savvy, agrees to the amount without attempting to negotiate it down, and then complains about the result borne from their lack of savvy to the local business journal without taking their grievances back to Person A.

Is any of this wrong?
[/quote]

Clearly you are wrong because that doesn't scream and cry about how immoral and cruel MK is. Try again.

[Branimir]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289336436' post='2508437']I dunno... I think hes got you there, brani. [/quote]
I dunno,..what he is even saying. As usual, the guy really doesn't make any sense for me.

Anyway, was an honest set of questions. If you don't want to answer them, thats fine. BTW., the announcement, really wasn't the greatest of ideas you came up with as an alliance.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Branimir

[tamerlane]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1289336461' post='2508440']
No, that's not a good metaphor at all. It's more like this.

Person A gives person B, member of corporation C, payment for a service. Person B does not fulfill the service. Person A asks Corporation C to refund the money, and requests additional reparations for person B breaking the contract--- an amount clearly inflated and intended to be negotiated down. Corporation C, clearly not being very business savvy, agrees to the amount without attempting to negotiate it down, and then complains about the result borne from their lack of savvy to the local business journal without taking their grievances back to Person A.

Is any of this wrong?
[/quote]

Well I do have one complaint and thats your appraisal of Corporation C. In these discussions, Yev and Imp were clearly baited (hook line and sinker) into what was to become RV's log dump on these forums. RV didn't want to negotiate down, RV saw that he had exactly what he wanted to work with and allowed the rest to fall into place. As much as I deride RV, his move was a smart one even if I find it to be crass and in poor taste.

Edited November 9, 2010 by tamerlane

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289336644' post='2508446']
I dunno,..what he is even saying. As usual, the guy really doesn't make any sense for me.

Anyway, was an honest set of questions. If you don't want to answer them, thats fine. BTW., the announcement, really wasn't the greatest of ideas you came up with as an alliance.
[/quote]
and yet we're completely content with it.

[Partisan]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289325519' post='2508238']
Its not because they called us out, they could have done that in private, and its certainly not extortion. I suppose the public sentiment has taken a radical U turn in regards to the way it views diplomatic decorum.

We Vanguards of Etiquette are finding it harder and harder to make our way in this increasingly barbaric world
[/quote]

They did did call you out in private as you can see in the following quote:

[quote]<Rebel_Virginia> You think this kind of shady back room extortion is reasonable?[/quote]

Apparently it had no result, so he called you out again publicly.

A good day, dear sir.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1289336611' post='2508443']
Actually, we have a bit of tact and don't do that.
[/quote]
Possession of that particular quality has sure been on display.

[Branimir]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289336743' post='2508449']and yet we're completely content with it.[/quote]
I picked that up already. I am happy you are, fills me with hope,...

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Itsuki Koizumi' timestamp='1289335396' post='2508416']
yeah... because NSO totally had no fault in this mess...
[/quote]
[b]2006[/b]: NPO - "Because Legion totally had no fault in this mess..."
[b]2007[/b]: NpO - "Because Genmay totally had no fault in this mess..."
[b]2008[/b]: GGA - "Because Hyperion totally had no fault in this mess..."
[b]2009[/b]: NPO - "Because OV totally had no fault in this mess..."

Another year, another group of !@#$% bags making excuses for themselves being !@#$% bags. I swear sometimes I could set my watch to this cycle.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1289336891' post='2508456']
[b]2006[/b]: NPO - "Because Legion totally had no fault in this mess..."
[b]2007[/b]: NpO - "Because Genmay totally had no fault in this mess..."
[b]2008[/b]: GGA - "Because Hyperion totally had no fault in this mess..."
[b]2009[/b]: NPO - "Because OV totally had no fault in this mess..."

Another year, another group of !@#$% bags making excuses for themselves being !@#$% bags. I swear sometimes I could set my watch to this cycle.
[/quote]
To be fair, Genmay wanted that war as much as anyone else.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Partisan' timestamp='1289336753' post='2508450']
They did did call you out in private as you can see in the following quote:



Apparently it had no result, so he called you out again publicly.

A good day, dear sir.
[/quote]

I'd say he was laying it on thick for his target audience as opposed to protesting in that one. Also, what I was referring to is that if you have a grievance with the way the underlings handled things, take it to the prince. Problem with the prince? Take it to the king. Problem with the King? Then you can go and cry foul. RV knew what he was doing when he dropped that line and he had no intention on pursuing the issue any further once he had got the piece he wanted to run with.

Edited November 9, 2010 by tamerlane

[Partisan]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1289336598' post='2508442']
You don't know how much could have been taken off because you did not try. I have zero sympathy for those who do not take action in a situation because they simply [i]think[/i] that the outcome won't be favorable. A certain rogue spent over a month at war with us because he thought our only terms would involve wonder decommission or an impossible amount of reps, as we initially offered something along those lines. The final outcome was leagues away from his suspicions.


You forgot the part where Corporation C repeatedly tries to deny any culpability in the situation, creating a false "all or none" scenario.
[/quote]

To demand reps from the alliance as a whole at all would have been unreasonable. By giving you the go-ahead to hit the nation they lost any and all responsibility. You can speculate about them playing an evil trick on you by taking him back in after he rerolls all you want but thats just that: speculation. If they'd do that and you would find evidence you'd be in the right to demand reps. Now...you arent.

Demanding 15 mil and 250 tech is simply a far to high start for such a petty issue, especially as NSO as an alliance was not in the wrong when the talks were initiated. For some reason I also doubt MK would allow for 15 mil and 250 tech to be negotiated down to 3 mil or 6 mil (which would still be unreasonable, but something NSO could have agreed on)

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1289336997' post='2508459']
To be fair, Genmay wanted that war as much as anyone else.
[/quote]
Perhaps, but I'm sure they didn't want NpO to be dicks about their victory. Sore winners always lose eventually, and being a sore winner makes you take the wrath of sore losers, and hell hath no fury like an alliance with an opportunity for revenge.

[Hyperion321]

double post.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Hyperion321

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Partisan' timestamp='1289337268' post='2508464']
I also doubt MK would allow for 15 mil and 250 tech to be negotiated down to 3 mil or 6 mil (which would still be unreasonable, but something NSO could have agreed on)
[/quote]

If you never try, you'll never know.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289336299' post='2508433']
I don't think you know what your talking about.
[/quote]
Ditto

[Rocky Horror]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1289337282' post='2508466']
Perhaps, but I'm sure they didn't want NpO to be dicks about their victory. Sore winners always lose eventually, and being a sore winner makes you take the wrath of sore losers, and hell hath no fury like an alliance with an opportunity for revenge.
[/quote]MK know it more than anyone else does, which makes a good case for our intentions, really.

[Partisan]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289337000' post='2508460']
I'd say he was laying it on thick for his target audience as opposed to protesting in that one. Also, what I was referring to is that if you have a grievance with the way the underlings handled things, take it to the prince. Problem with the prince? Take it to the king. Problem with the King? Then you can go and cry foul. RV knew what he was doing when he dropped that line and he had no intention on pursuing the issue any further once he had got the piece he wanted to run with.
[/quote]

When 2 of your underlings enter negotiations with official government authority it is safe to assume that they have the backing of your prince/king. As such, anything said or demanded by them will likely be taken as MK's word. When I am in a diplomatic discussion with officials representing another alliance I won't double check every single thing with their superiors either as I take their words as official.

As for RV dropping that line: Ofcourse he knew what he was doing, otherwise he wouldn't have done it. It does not really matter though as the actual content of that line is basicly the truth: It was a backroom extortion. It was in a private channel (read: backroom) and (unreasonably much) money was being demanded under the implied threat of war. add it up and you get the word we're looking for.

[Partisan]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289337434' post='2508472']
If you never try, you'll never know.
[/quote]

Starting out with an unreasonably high number just to negotiate it down to another unreasonably high number (given the situation) is not what I call a sound diplomatic tactic. Though I probably would have tried a low number first if I were in RV's shoes I certainly see why he decided to not even try.

[Earogema]

I will never understand the negotiation argument. You don't negotiate a number that should be concrete. If somebody owes you $20 you don't go "Hey, you owe me $30."

3 million is 3 million. A precedent (a reasonable one too, how about that?) had been established that a lost trade is not something you can ask reps for. Especially from the alliance rather than just a member. You don't start negotiations at a number higher than 3 million.

The only time you would start negotiations high and have the other party argue is during peace term discussions. In fact, I doubt there has EVER been a situation where a party that was winning started high and then was dropped (significantly) lower by the losing/smaller party.

Somebody does 3 million worth of damage to me, I ask for 3 million. That's it. I will never ask for more than that. You allow your own identity to be smeared that way. Just do the just thing and request the amount that you should get. If they refuse, then at least you were reasonable and they weren't.

MK dislikes NSO. It's no secret. I don't know if war would happen. I would put that at the top though. I simply cannot think of another response possible to not paying reps.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Earogema

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Rocky Horror' timestamp='1289337574' post='2508475']
MK know it more than anyone else does, which makes a good case for our intentions, really.
[/quote]
I don't understand. So because you got tortured by a completely different alliance two years ago you have the right to be a dick to NSO? I don't like them as much as the next guy, bu there is never any excuse to be a dick just for the sake of being a dick. MK [i]should[/i] know that more than anyone else.

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289337434' post='2508472']
If you never try, you'll never know.
[/quote]
Or you could...ya know...offer fair terms in the first place.