Backroom Extortion is Back

[Bob]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289262106' post='2506780']
Then prove me wrong. Other than the fact that you are dealing with NSO, why is there anything but equal compensation being discussed? And, again, if it were anything other than the case how can you account for the # of NO U and DEAL WITH IT! posts in this thread from MK members.

OOC: Unless you are going to write this comparison essay on Hamlet and POOF! for me, I cannot get on IRC right now.
[/quote]
An alliance is responsible for its members, it should pay more than equal compensation, especially if the actions of its members have led to a significant loss of funds from nations (If someone was 19 days inactive when the member terminated the trade, they just lost at least a days income if they couldnt find another trade stat. I don't know precisely what happened in this situation , but I do know that had I not collected when I did would have cost me a fair share of income due to this.

You are responsible for the actions of your members while they are within your alliance, period.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289262533' post='2506791']
Considering the offender required harbour aid, I suspect he wasn't in the position to pay us back.
[/quote]
Then you attack him or work out a deal with him. That's how it has always worked before, stop trying to fool yourself into thinking this was in any way a reasonable response from MK.

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289262607' post='2506793']
The sum that was presented to the NSO was agreed on by the Kingdom's government after establishing first contact with the NSO through LintWad. Rebel Virginia has agreed, on behalf of the NSO, to pay the total sum of 15 million and 250 tech to 5 nations of MK's choosing and all other circumstances/details are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I strongly suggest you honour this agreement.
[/quote]
The Kingdom has spoken.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1289262715' post='2506795']
Then you attack him or work out a deal with him. That's how it has always worked before, stop trying to fool yourself into thinking this was in any way a reasonable response from MK.
[/quote]
Why would we attack him when the NSO is only too willing to foot the bill?

[Bob]

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1289262715' post='2506795']
Then you attack him or work out a deal with him. That's how it has always worked before, stop trying to fool yourself into thinking this was in any way a reasonable response from MK.
[/quote]
Except for the fact that he was a member of NSO at the time, you are correct here.

Given the fact that he was a member of NSO, they are responsible for his actions, especially when they agree to pay for the loss of trade.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289262607' post='2506793']
The sum that was presented to the NSO was agreed on by the Kingdom's government after establishing first contact with the NSO through LintWad. Rebel Virginia has agreed, on behalf of the NSO, to pay the total sum of 15 million and 250 tech to 5 nations of MK's choosing and [b]all other circumstances/details are irrelevant to the matter at hand. [/b]
I strongly suggest you honour this agreement.
[/quote]
Judging by the size of this thread you are incorrect.

I am sure they and everyone elses knows what will happen if they don't pay up, this time.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289262607' post='2506793']
The sum that was presented to the NSO was agreed on by the Kingdom's government after establishing first contact with the NSO through LintWad. Rebel Virginia has agreed, on behalf of the NSO, to pay the total sum of 15 million and 250 tech to 5 nations of MK's choosing and all other circumstances/details are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

[b]I strongly suggest you honour this agreement.[/b]
[/quote]
Or what?

A crap agreement is a crap agreement and no one here will fault NSO for not paying.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Fernando12

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1289262715' post='2506795']
Then you attack him or work out a deal with him. That's how it has always worked before, stop trying to fool yourself into thinking this was in any way a reasonable response from MK.
[/quote]


NSO trying to cut a member and letting them get rolled is not reasonable. Making NSO man up to its members is about the only good response you can give.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1289262873' post='2506801']
Except for the fact that he was a member of NSO at the time, you are correct here.

Given the fact that he was a member of NSO, they are responsible for his actions, especially when they agree to pay for the loss of trade.
[/quote]
You have never had to remove a member due to their actions?

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1289262611' post='2506794']
An alliance is responsible for its members, it should pay more than equal compensation, especially if the actions of its members have led to a significant loss of funds from nations (If someone was 19 days inactive when the member terminated the trade, they just lost at least a days income if they couldnt find another trade stat. I don't know precisely what happened in this situation , but I do know that had I not collected when I did would have cost me a fair share of income due to this.

You are responsible for the actions of your members while they are within your alliance, period.
[/quote]

Did MK contact NSO gov. about setting up the trade circle?

[Bob]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1289263007' post='2506808']
You have never had to remove a member due to their actions?
[/quote]
I have several times, and I paid for their actions.

I've paid far more than this for far less, and if this is an "injustice" its a pretty small one.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Lord Strider' timestamp='1289262558' post='2506792']
He was a member of NSO, the Original deal is for the member to pay. I believe RV took the option to have NSO pay it.
[/quote]

I believe you kind of told him to do it.

Just sayin'

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1289263071' post='2506812']
I believe you kind of told him to do it.

Just sayin'
[/quote]


Just like a parent sometimes has to tell their children to do their chores.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Lord Strider' timestamp='1289262989' post='2506807']
NSO trying to cut a member and letting them get rolled is not reasonable. Making NSO man up to its members is about the only good response you can give.
[/quote]

Why is it not reasonable? If an MK member scammed an alliance of aid you wouldn't want to pay it for them would you?

[quote name='Lord Strider' timestamp='1289263143' post='2506814']
Just like a parent sometimes has to tell their children to do their chores.
[/quote]

That's pretty arrogant.

[size="1"]Not to mention untrue[/size]

Edited November 9, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[Kim Jaym Il]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1289262873' post='2506801']
Except for the fact that he was a member of NSO at the time, you are correct here.

Given the fact that he was a member of NSO, they are responsible for his actions, especially when they agree to pay for the loss of trade.
[/quote]

I don't think this line of reasoning really works, otherwise the same could be applied whenever a member goes rogue on another alliance.

This is really the same type of situation. A rogue member attacks another alliance, or a rogue member scams aid from another alliance.

The difference is negligible, and I doubt you would ever pay reparations for the damage of a rogue attack.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1289262611' post='2506794']
An alliance is responsible for its members, it should pay more than equal compensation, especially if the actions of its members have led to a significant loss of funds from nations (If someone was 19 days inactive when the member terminated the trade, they just lost at least a days income if they couldnt find another trade stat. I don't know precisely what happened in this situation , but I do know that had I not collected when I did would have cost me a fair share of income due to this.

You are responsible for the actions of your members while they are within your alliance, period.
[/quote]

Boo hoo.

We have had people leave my trade circle and I have had to collect under less than ideal situations. Just because you had to be inconvenienced to do some work for once instead of being 3 clicks and done. You also run that risk for doing 20 day sleds. What if someones nation disappears? Do you still hold that alliance responsible? NSO didn't tell the dude to leave or to mess anyone over. Hell if we are setting that standard, I suppose Tamerlane and you would support MK going after FARK, FAN and MHA for having members that have left my trade circle (I am with Tamer in a circle) when I was in the middle of a sled. I mean, since I was inconvenienced enough to have to seek out a temp trade or collect.

The only reason MK took the action it did in this case is because it was NSO and because they could.

[Bob]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1289263151' post='2506815']
Why is it not reasonable? If an MK member scammed an alliance of aid you wouldn't want to pay it for them would you?



That's pretty arrogant.
[/quote]
MK would have accepted the member, and so they would pay for the consequences of that acceptance.

So yes, I do believe MK would pay for it, once you accept a member you have to deal with their actions.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1289263151' post='2506815']
Why is it not reasonable? If an MK member scammed an alliance of aid you wouldn't want to pay it for them would you?



That's pretty arrogant.
[/quote]
Pretty sure MK would respond "tough luck, move on" It is the common answer given their on their side these days.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1289263151' post='2506815']
Why is it not reasonable? If an MK member scammed an alliance of aid you wouldn't want to pay it for them would you?



That's pretty arrogant.
[/quote]


yes I would pay it, I have paid it and I will in the future. It is my alliance and what happens there is my responsibility as well. It doesn't matter if I caused the problem or not.

[Bob]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289263254' post='2506817']
Boo hoo.

We have had people leave my trade circle and I have had to collect under less than ideal situations. Just because you had to be inconvenienced to do some work for once instead of being 3 clicks and done. You also run that risk for doing 20 day sleds. What if someones nation disappears? Do you still hold that alliance responsible? NSO didn't tell the dude to leave or to mess anyone over. Hell if we are setting that standard, I suppose Tamerlane and you would support MK going after FARK, FAN and MHA for having members that have left my trade circle (I am with Tamer in a circle) when I was in the middle of a sled. I mean, since I was inconvenienced enough to have to seek out a temp trade or collect.

The only reason MK took the action it did in this case is because it was NSO and because they could.
[/quote]
Did you pay them?

Is an alliance responsible for its members actions?

And that's just not true, but you can continue to believe so.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Penlugue Solaris

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1289263266' post='2506818']
MK would have accepted the member, and so they would pay for the consequences of that acceptance.

So yes, I do believe MK would pay for it, [b]once you accept a member you have to deal with their actions.[/b]
[/quote]

That is true up until a point. However, when the member blatantly breaks your rules you have to toss them out.

[quote name='Lord Strider' timestamp='1289263315' post='2506820']
yes I would pay it, I have paid it and I will in the future. It is my alliance and what happens there is my responsibility as well. It doesn't matter if I caused the problem or not.
[/quote]

Okay well when I'm in the mood for scamming people of aid remind me to join MK.

[Bob]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1289263446' post='2506824']
That is true up until a point. However, when the member blatantly breaks your rules you have to toss them out.
[/quote]
And you pay for their actions while a member of your alliance.

[quote]
Okay well when I'm in the mood for scamming people of aid remind me to join MK.
[/quote]
You will face the internal consequences of the alliance for doing so, and most likely be destroyed by MK for it but go ahead! I'm sure you will be accepted.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289263254' post='2506817']
Boo hoo.

We have had people leave my trade circle and I have had to collect under less than ideal situations. Just because you had to be inconvenienced to do some work for once instead of being 3 clicks and done. You also run that risk for doing 20 day sleds. What if someones nation disappears? Do you still hold that alliance responsible? NSO didn't tell the dude to leave or to mess anyone over. Hell if we are setting that standard, I suppose Tamerlane and you would support MK going after FARK, FAN and MHA for having members that have left my trade circle (I am with Tamer in a circle) when I was in the middle of a sled. I mean, since I was inconvenienced enough to have to seek out a temp trade or collect.

The only reason MK took the action it did in this case is because it was NSO and because they could.
[/quote]

My complaint, my biggest complaint, is the fact this conversation was posted. Things could have been resolved but RV decided to be RV (why we ever would accept dealing with him is beyond me). Its a poor showing that their disagreement was not better expressed to Lebubu or Archon but here on this forum and that no attempt was made at negotiation.

That being said, I didn't pay that member 3mil only to have them back out without ever joining the circle, Airme. Please do not use me in your hyperbole.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289263254' post='2506817']
Boo hoo.

We have had people leave my trade circle and I have had to collect under less than ideal situations. Just because you had to be inconvenienced to do some work for once instead of being 3 clicks and done. You also run that risk for doing 20 day sleds. What if someones nation disappears? Do you still hold that alliance responsible? NSO didn't tell the dude to leave or to mess anyone over. Hell if we are setting that standard, I suppose Tamerlane and you would support MK going after FARK, FAN and MHA for having members that have left my trade circle (I am with Tamer in a circle) when I was in the middle of a sled. I mean, since I was inconvenienced enough to have to seek out a temp trade or collect.

The only reason MK took the action it did in this case is because it was NSO and because they could.
[/quote]

My complaint, my biggest complaint, is the fact this conversation was posted. Things could have been resolved but RV decided to be RV (why we ever would accept dealing with him is beyond me). Its a poor showing that their disagreement was not better expressed to Lebubu or Archon but here on this forum and that no attempt was made at negotiation.

That being said, I didn't pay any of our TC members 3mil only to have them back out without ever joining the circle, Airme. Please do not use me in your hyperbole.

Edited November 9, 2010 by tamerlane

[AirMe]

[quote name='Penlugue Solaris' timestamp='1289263317' post='2506821']
Did you pay them?

Is an alliance responsible for its members actions?

And that's just not true, but you can continue to believe so.
[/quote]

I believe I may have sent aid to help out. But again, I don't really care about 3 million any more. It is hard to care about 3 million when you have 2.5 billion on hand.

An alliance is responsible for its members actions yes. And I don't see anywhere where RV hasn't taken responsibility for the actions of former members. The main complaint is the egregious amount that was requested to be paid.