Pandora's Box

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1288893934' post='2501993']
Which post? My original response to the tosh you posted? If it offends I can easily take the bold out and place it below your post? I mean, I wouldn't like to hurt your feelings or anything. If it really matters where my text goes, I can change it for you, if you wish?
[/quote]
You removed the phrase "Defending your members against attack" from the quoteblock when you quoted my post.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288894196' post='2501996']
You removed the phrase "Defending your members against attack" from the quoteblock when you quoted my post.
[/quote]

I don't know how that happened, my apologies, I'm wondering what you mean by defending members from attack? Do you mean the single Tech raid on that 1 guy, which then accepted payment from GOONS for the inconvenience? Of coarse any alliance should take an alliance wide attack seriously. But I know that's not what you're meaning and again I'm wondering on what logic do you use a Tech raid to declare on an alliance wide scale, especially after payment was accepted and the aggrieved person was content?

Edited November 4, 2010 by Hiro Nakara

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1288894654' post='2502004']
I don't know how that happened, my apologies, I'm wondering what you mean by defending members from attack? Do you mean the single Tech raid on that 1 guy, which then accepted payment from GOONS for the inconvenience? Of coarse any alliance should take an alliance wide attack seriously. But I know that's not what you're meaning and again I'm wondering on what logic do you use a Tech raid to declare on an alliance wide scale, especially after payment was accepted and the aggrieved person was content?
[/quote]
Apparently this was the fourth "accidental" tech raid against a UPN member by GOONS. Most alliances have a threshold, and when you raid them over and over again, they get ticked and conclude that the raids aren't accidental. War is the normal response then.

Personally I would just keep on ratcheting the reps required upward for repeated mistakes, but I know other people advocate a different approach.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288895162' post='2502016']
Apparently this was the fourth "accidental" tech raid against a UPN member by GOONS. Most alliances have a threshold, and when you raid them over and over again, they get ticked and conclude that the raids aren't accidental. War is the normal response then.

Personally I would just keep on ratcheting the reps required upward for repeated mistakes, but I know other people advocate a different approach.
[/quote]
The WCE wasn't formed by UPN, it was formed by others who wanted an excuse to attack GOONS, with one of the potential options being the UPN raid situation (which was already resolved), or the UPN accepting UOKMB members situation (which was resolved, but then redacted by UPN who was trying to escalate the situation so we'd do something stupid), or failing those, making a bait micro with the intention of getting a CB on GOONS.

In the end, it was far less about defence of members or soverignty, and more about getting the chance to declare war on GOONS and win.

[nippy]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288893447' post='2501983']
Have you really reached the level of puerile humour where you think editing my post in your reply to try and make me look bad is appropriate?
[/quote]

As if you've ever needed help. Do try to stay on top of current events, Haflinger.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288895937' post='2502027']
In the end, it was far less about defence of members or soverignty, and more about getting the chance to declare war on GOONS and win.
[/quote]
And you guys declared war on NATO ... why exactly?

You're telegraphing your own strategy. GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288901871' post='2502090']
And you guys declared war on NATO ... why exactly?

You're telegraphing your own strategy. GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win.
[/quote]
First, to assist our side in a global war. Not even remotely comparable.
Second, you're wrong. GOONS-CSA war. Look it up. (Don't fish for an "alternate reason"; the reason we gave for the war was the real reason)
Third, this was a nice deflection, but now try to explain how the WCE wasn't fishing wherever it could for a CB.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288903739' post='2502119']
Second, you're wrong. GOONS-CSA war. Look it up. (Don't fish for an "alternate reason"; the reason we gave for the war was the real reason)
[/quote]
lolwut

You're going to claim the curbstomping of a microalliance aiding people on your permazi list proves your bravery?

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288903739' post='2502119']
Third, this was a nice deflection, but now try to explain how the WCE wasn't fishing wherever it could for a CB.
[/quote]
Because it didn't declare war.

If you fish hard enough, you can always find something. The easy CB on GOONS that's available to just about anyone is to decide that the Revenge Doctrine is worth fighting for.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288910444' post='2502240']
lolwut

You're going to claim the curbstomping of a microalliance aiding people on your permazi list proves your bravery?
[/quote]
Nope! I'm claiming that it refutes the statement "GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win."

[quote]
Because it didn't declare war.

If you fish hard enough, you can always find something. The easy CB on GOONS that's available to just about anyone is to decide that the Revenge Doctrine is worth fighting for.
[/quote]
The reason they didn't declare war was not for lack of a CB - it was for lack of what they thought was a good enough CB to sway some "maybe" alliances to their side. That is why I say that it wasn't about defending members, it was about defeating GOONS. That's where the "manufacturing" part comes in. Maybe we view that word differently, but I consider intentionally escalating resolved situations in an attempt to provide a favorable CB to be "manufacturing".

[Matthew Conrad]

Wow are you still trying to defend #stratego? This is absolutely amazing. How does the fact that they were talked out of a losing war in any way indicate they weren't searching for a CB [b]when the entire conversation was dedicated to finding one?[/b] The fact that you're trying to make the argument that not finding an adequate CB meant they weren't fishing for one is one of your more entertaining posts in recent weeks.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288911895' post='2502283']
Nope! I'm claiming that it refutes the statement "GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win."
[/quote]
Because you anticipated terrifying odds being brought against you by CSA's legion of allies?

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288911895' post='2502283']
The reason they didn't declare war was not for lack of a CB - it was for lack of what they thought was a good enough CB to sway some "maybe" alliances to their side. That is why I say that it wasn't about defending members, it was about defeating GOONS. That's where the "manufacturing" part comes in. Maybe we view that word differently, but I consider intentionally escalating resolved situations in an attempt to provide a favorable CB to be "manufacturing".
[/quote]
The UPN tech raid situation was not resolved at the time #stratego took place.

It got resolved later on, yes. I believe the word you're going for is "resolvable." And frankly, every single CB that's ever been used has been because of a resolvable dispute. When Ragnarok declared war on NSO over the Sedrick situation, they could have opted to continue diplomacy instead of declaring war. They decided to declare war instead, as is their right.

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1288913935' post='2502331']
Wow are you still trying to defend #stratego? This is absolutely amazing. How does the fact that they were talked out of a losing war in any way indicate they weren't searching for a CB [b]when the entire conversation was dedicated to finding one?[/b] The fact that you're trying to make the argument that not finding an adequate CB meant they weren't fishing for one is one of your more entertaining posts in recent weeks.
[/quote]
lol, they were clearly searching for a CB. At least some people in #stratego were; many were just there to observe.

What I take exception to is the idea that they were trying to manufacture one. Finding a valid CB and trying to fabricate one are two very different things.

[nippy]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288921284' post='2502491']
Because you anticipated terrifying odds being brought against you by CSA's legion of allies?
[/quote]

The ricochet from this deflection almost took my dog's head clean off, man. Seriously, you're not talking to idiots here. Ktarthan brought up our war vs. CSA to point out that we declared on them for a valid reason. Instead of disputing this, you're attempting to sidestep his point and make a half-assed insult about bravery. If you're unable to follow a conversation enough to carry on a debate, I suggest finding a new hobby.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1288891391' post='2501961']
So really everything you posted was rubbish and the only real problem you have is that Sardonic made commentary for the logs.


[/quote]

Were they edited?

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1288941379' post='2502788']
Were they edited?
[/quote]

To my knowledge no, Sardonic never posted them in there entirety due to length and he added commentary.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1288934694' post='2502707']
The ricochet from this deflection almost took my dog's head clean off, man. Seriously, you're not talking to idiots here. Ktarthan brought up our war vs. CSA to point out that we declared on them for a valid reason. Instead of disputing this, you're attempting to sidestep his point and make a half-assed insult about bravery. If you're unable to follow a conversation enough to carry on a debate, I suggest finding a new hobby.
[/quote]
He's arguing that it proves the claim that you guys only declare war when you know you're going to win is wrong. Which is what I said.

You knew you were going to win when you attacked CSA.

If you guys had any balls at all, you would have been in there with FOK and Poison Clan when Polar attacked \m/. You don't. Instead you did your usual thing of cowering in a corner until you finally got an invitation from the winning side, at which point you promptly declared war in the hopes of securing aid for your lowbies.

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1288941379' post='2502788']
Were they edited?
[/quote]
Yes.

[nippy]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288956487' post='2502835']
He's arguing that it proves the claim that you guys only declare war when you know you're going to win is wrong. Which is what I said.

You knew you were going to win when you attacked CSA.

If you guys had any balls at all, you would have been in there with FOK and Poison Clan when Polar attacked \m/. You don't. Instead you did your usual thing of cowering in a corner until you finally got an invitation from the winning side, at which point you promptly declared war in the hopes of securing aid for your lowbies.
[/quote]

You are so full of crap, son. Here, let me show you exactly what you said:

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288901871' post='2502090']
You're telegraphing your own strategy. GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win.
[/quote]

There was a reason why we declared on CSA....a very valid reason. It suits you to turn a blind eye to it, however, because your sole purpose in life is to cry about our actions every chance you get. If YOU had any balls at all, you'd quit acting like a mini-Schatt by expecting everyone else to take actions against us while you stand on the sidelines and provoke.

[MikeCrotch]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288956487' post='2502835']
He's arguing that it proves the claim that you guys only declare war when you know you're going to win is wrong. Which is what I said.

You knew you were going to win when you attacked CSA.

If you guys had any balls at all, you would have been in there with FOK and Poison Clan when Polar attacked \m/. You don't. Instead you did your usual thing of cowering in a corner until you finally got an invitation from the winning side, at which point you promptly declared war in the hopes of securing aid for your lowbies.

[/quote]

U MAD?

Seriously though, this is some weaksauce stuff. The debate was never about 'bravery' or whatever this post was about, it was about having a valid CB. Which we did have, you're just trying to sidestep saying you were wrong by saying 'GONS R COWARDS '

I like how you're trying to pin this whole 'bravery' thing on us anyway, like all the chumps who kept complaining we weren't fighting one-on-one during Roguefest 2010. Is it somehow wrong to fight a war you know you're going to win? Should we have fought CSA wearing a blindfold and one arm tied behind our backs for the sake of 'bravery'?

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288956487' post='2502835']
Yes.
[/quote]
Not that I particularly care about your standing in the international community, but a good first step to improving your terrible reputation might be to stop lying about obvious things. The only 'editing' I did was remove hostmasks, and other rule-breaking stuff. You'll note how nobody, NOBODY, complained about me misrepresenting or falsifying logs, not even Schatt. I trimmed it down due to length, but I kept all the important stuff, even those in the channel who were indeed arguing against attacking with no real cb.

[MikeCrotch]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1288962895' post='2502885']
Not that I particularly care about your standing in the international community, but a good first step to improving your terrible reputation might be to stop lying about obvious things. The only 'editing' I did was remove hostmasks, and other rule-breaking stuff. You'll note how nobody, NOBODY, complained about me misrepresenting or falsifying logs, not even Schatt. I trimmed it down due to length, but I kept all the important stuff, even those in the channel who were indeed arguing against attacking with no real cb.
[/quote]

Boss, are you claiming that Halflinger here is a worse poster than Schatt? 'Cos, damn, that is a bold claim.

[Believland]

[quote name='MikeCrotch' timestamp='1288974183' post='2502974']
Boss, are you claiming that Halflinger here is a worse poster than Schatt? 'Cos, damn, that is a bold claim.
[/quote]

You may want to review Schatt's history with his writings before you make bold claims.

[potato]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1288962895' post='2502885']
Not that I particularly care about your standing in the international community, but a good first step to improving your terrible reputation might be to stop lying about obvious things. The only 'editing' I did was remove hostmasks, and other rule-breaking stuff. You'll note how nobody, NOBODY, complained about me misrepresenting or falsifying logs, not even Schatt. I trimmed it down due to length, but I kept all the important stuff, even those in the channel who were indeed arguing against attacking with no real cb.
[/quote]

Calling it here and now: "Adding comments is editing".

[ktarthan]

[quote]
Because you anticipated terrifying odds being brought against you by CSA's legion of allies?
[/quote]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1288956487' post='2502835']
He's arguing that it proves the claim that you guys only declare war when you know you're going to win is wrong. Which is what I said.

You knew you were going to win when you attacked CSA.

If you guys had any balls at all, you would have been in there with FOK and Poison Clan when Polar attacked \m/. You don't. Instead you did your usual thing of cowering in a corner until you finally got an invitation from the winning side, at which point you promptly declared war in the hopes of securing aid for your lowbies.
[/quote]
No, once again, I am saying that I refute the statement "GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win."

[quote]
The UPN tech raid situation was not resolved at the time #stratego took place.

It got resolved later on, yes. I believe the word you're going for is "resolvable." And frankly, every single CB that's ever been used has been because of a resolvable dispute. When Ragnarok declared war on NSO over the Sedrick situation, they could have opted to continue diplomacy instead of declaring war. They decided to declare war instead, as is their right.
[/quote]
At the time of #stratego it was as resolved as it was ever going to get, regardless of whether or not UPN was still upset about its conclusion.

[quote]
What I take exception to is the idea that they were trying to manufacture one. Finding a valid CB and trying to fabricate one are two very different things.
[/quote]
I guess it boils down to whether or not we agree on how "manufacture" is being used here. They spent a great deal of time talking about things they could do to provoke or trap GOONS into making a move that would give them a nice agreeable CB. To me that is attempting to create, or "manufacture" a CB.

It seems, as your use of the word "fabricate" suggests, that you take it to mean simply making something up, whether it's true or not. I don't think they were trying to do [i]that[/i].

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1288974358' post='2502978']
You may want to review Schatt's history with his writings before you make bold claims.
[/quote]
What he's written in the past doesn't change the fact that a good portion of what he writes today is objectively awful.

Edited November 5, 2010 by ktarthan

[Sardonic]

[quote name='MikeCrotch' timestamp='1288974183' post='2502974']
Boss, are you claiming that Halflinger here is a worse poster than Schatt? 'Cos, damn, that is a bold claim.
[/quote]
At least Schatt knows what strings to pull to make people believe a half-truth, Haflinger doesn't even try by comparison.

[Voytek]

[quote name='MikeCrotch' timestamp='1288974183' post='2502974']
Boss, are you claiming that Halflinger here is a worse poster than Schatt? 'Cos, damn, that is a bold claim.
[/quote]
Schattenmann is just a less self-aware and less self-confident RV. Haflinger is a [i]slightly[/i] smarter Alterego.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1288962895' post='2502885']
Not that I particularly care about your standing in the international community, but a good first step to improving your terrible reputation might be to stop lying about obvious things. The only 'editing' I did was remove hostmasks, and other rule-breaking stuff. You'll note how nobody, NOBODY, complained about me misrepresenting or falsifying logs, not even Schatt. I trimmed it down due to length, but [b]I kept all the important stuff,[/b] even those in the channel who were indeed arguing against attacking with no real cb.
[/quote]
No, you didn't.

Perhaps the missing important stuff was not given to you. However, that's not the point.

And, quite frankly, I am not entirely convinced that your source was not a man who has acted as both a spy and an agent provocateur for GOONS in the past. So what Schatt says or does not say on this topic is not all that important from my point of view.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288978840' post='2503013']
No, once again, I am saying that I refute the statement "GOONS has never declared war for any reason other than getting the chance to declare war on someone and win."
[/quote]
Then show a time when you declared war, putting your alliance at risk.

You take opportunities to attack your enemies whenever you can do so without putting yourselves at risk.

CSA was just another example of that.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288978840' post='2503013']
At the time of #stratego it was as resolved as it was ever going to get, regardless of whether or not UPN was still upset about its conclusion.
[/quote]
#stratego happened before ODN negotiated the higher reps with you guys.

So no, it wasn't.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288978840' post='2503013']
I guess it boils down to whether or not we agree on how "manufacture" is being used here. They spent a great deal of time talking about things they could do to provoke or trap GOONS into making a move that would give them a nice agreeable CB. To me that is attempting to create, or "manufacture" a CB.
[/quote]
That's called strategy.

It's exactly the same kind of thing that was done to NPO. Do you think that the Karma War was manufactured?

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1288978840' post='2503013']
It seems, as your use of the word "fabricate" suggests, that you take it to mean simply making something up, whether it's true or not. I don't think they were trying to do [i]that[/i].
[/quote]
Well at least we have some common ground.