GOON spy orders

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285454418' post='2464615']
A nation like Jim's--in the top 25--needs neither thing from anyone else.
[/quote]

I do believe that you mean in the top 100.

Nation Rank: Ranked #90 of 21,059 Nations (0.43%)

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='oinkoink12' timestamp='1285452907' post='2464596']
Every *edit* get out of this thread, red sphere, PLEASE DONT SANCTION HIM.
Else i'll never hit my 11 mil casualties. I'm doing more damage than my opponent so I cant be botherd.

He's a rogue, let him suffer in peace.
[/quote]
Red team sanction is irrelevant like I said, I am not dependent upon it. As for damage I think I am up on you at this point especially after me owning the skies today. It is a toss up at best.

[oinkoink12]

[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285456380' post='2464643']
Red team sanction is irrelevant like I said, I am not dependent upon it. As for damage I think I am up on you at this point especially after me owning the skies today. It is a toss up at best.
[/quote]
your 600 land 37 infra and 68 tech behind on me personally. Due to you losing more GA's. And my tech being slightly higher. But your a decent opponent I salute you for that.

i'm goin to sleep right now, and in about 10 hours check my 11 new messages and see I finally hit the 10 mil casualties + my 50th eaten nuke

Edited September 25, 2010 by oinkoink12

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='JimKongIl' timestamp='1285451023' post='2464579']
VE vouches for Goons, do you believe they are a "paragon of virtue" or a "paragon of what not to do in CN"? They are the criminals and thieves of CN.
[/quote]

Ok first off. That's related how?

Second, even if it was its a logical fallacy do your self a favor and google "false dichotomy".

So Mister Deflector, lets try again.

Defending what? Methrage has a long and expensive history of running off and doing stupid !@#$. He's clearly not that bright since he keeps repeating the same foolish actions over and over again.

So we go back to the question of what exactly it is that methrage is standing up for? The ability for his micro AA to attack larger alliances and not be required to pay for it?

[Baldr]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1285399042' post='2464107']
No actually, we killed that in the surrender terms, then NPO E-lawyered their way out of it and we didn't care enough to re-declare on them for breaking terms.
[/quote]

You are a liar.


[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285442919' post='2464453']
This is not a war, it is a group of rogues. [/quote]

GOONS has changed their tune, and is now calling them rogues. Earlier, GOONS posted a DOW against the alliance Kerberos Nexus. You are being inconsistent.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91676

[Choson]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1285458296' post='2464662']
You are a liar.

GOONS has changed their tune, and is now calling them rogues. Earlier, GOONS posted a DOW against the alliance Kerberos Nexus. You are being inconsistent.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91676
[/quote]
Yeah, because we're not known for being "ironic" or "sarcastic" in our alliance announcements.

We've always considered KN to be a group that does not have alliance status. See our charter for more details.

[dalstrs]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1285458296' post='2464662']

GOONS has changed their tune, and is now calling them rogues. Earlier, GOONS posted a DOW against the alliance Kerberos Nexus. You are being inconsistent.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=91676
[/quote]

Good Job removing the rest of what I said which pretty much explains why it is called a war at times.

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285442919' post='2464453']
This is not a war, it is a group of rogues. A war would imply that you have a legitimate alliance. [b]While it may be referred to as a war at times it is only for the convenience of discussion.[/b]
[/quote]

[Haquertal]

[quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1285459931' post='2464694']
Good Job removing the rest of what I said which pretty much explains why it is called a war at times.
[/quote]

Dalstrs, my goon sir, if they don't leave out portions of your argument, then how can they slight you?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1285458296' post='2464662']
You are a liar.
[/quote]

Naa, just an old fart posting at 3 am, !@#$ happens.

[Baldr]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1285460962' post='2464710']
Naa, just an old fart posting at 3 am, !@#$ happens.
[/quote]

What you posted was not true. It doesn't matter what time you said it, what matters is whether it is true or not. It wasn't true. It isn't true. It's a lie that you and others keep repeating.

[iamthey]

This entire controversy is really just silly. The process of classifying a nation as a 'rogue' is probably one of the least scientific practices we have developed, right up there with distinguishing aggressor from defender, and assessing the validity of a CB. In line with the trend in the latter two, this is basically just a matter left to each alliance. In a war various internal doctrines determine who will be labeled an aggressor and a defender, each alliance will decide for itself if a CB is valid or invalid. In this case each alliance may decide if it thinks methrage and his group are considered an alliance or rogues. Just because goons considered them rogues doesn't mean anyone else has to. In the same regard just because we think tech raiding is counter productive and self defeating, doesn't mean you have to agree (which clearly you don't).

Try to persuade us if you like, but there is no objective basis for your definition and you have no tangible ground to stand on. You are playing e-lawyer in what amounts to a wilderness.

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1285421251' post='2464246']
Actually, the only significant alliance on red is NPO. There's Invicta too, to be fair, but they'll basically do what you want (and I don't even hate them for it, they're just really good allies and you're lucky to have them.) Cult of Justitia are too small to have any real influence, and half of Biff Webster's votes are from NPO anyway. The only reason you're playing nice with Red Dawn is for the PR, same with the red senate thing, you don't consider them real friends. Schattenmann, best buddies with NPO? Please. I can't really think of anyone else on red (that's your fault, by the way, it's the result of the Revenge and Moldavi Doctrines, which red has never recovered from), but I suppose there's TMF, who are also very irrelevant. I challenge you to name a single time that any of the other alliances in Red Dawn have "taken the lead in things".
[/quote]

I'll remember this next time someone from your side of the isle is butthurt because we are not assuming good will on their part.

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285458935' post='2464675']
Yeah, because we're not known for being "ironic" or "sarcastic" in our alliance announcements.

We've always considered KN to be a group that does not have alliance status. See our charter for more details.
[/quote]

So you are completely serious and precise when it comes to classifying nations and defining what a 'rogue' is, but a DoW is just sarcasm and lulz? Sorry I guess I generally just assume people mean what they say.

Edited September 26, 2010 by iamthey

[Haquertal]

[quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1285461231' post='2464713']
What you posted was not true. It doesn't matter what time you said it, what matters is whether it is true or not. It wasn't true. It isn't true. It's a lie that you and others keep repeating.
[/quote]

Are your feelings hurt, sir? Dare I ask, "u mad"?

Anyway, on topic-ish, this thread is dying, so I say we give it a burial at sea. Who's with me?

[Bavaricar]

By now, I think most fair observers are used to the goons never expecting to be held to the words they spout on these forums or even the word they might give in private. Like most others here, I'm also very accustomed to the many goons who bandy about here daily saying anything just to say something contrary or mocking and then to say the exact opposite a moment or so later. But now seeing this behavior spread (or appear again?)among the leaders of some of their more freshly redeclared allies is quite something.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Bavaricar

[Biazt]

I'm not sure what everyone is crying about here. The argument was originally not whether NPO refused to recognize Methrage as a rogue and thus not sanction him but rather that NPO refused to because of our "participation" in the so called red raiding safari, regardless of their position on Methrage's rogue status. Now we've got Jim's situation, where NPO is now claiming he is not a rogue because Methrage is not a rogue, even though they would have sanctioned Methrage had the safari not been an issue.

And no, no one is demanding NPO do anything, we're just pointing it out.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Biazt

[Choson]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1285461275' post='2464714']
So you are completely serious and precise when it comes to classifying nations and defining what a 'rogue' is, but a DoW is just sarcasm and lulz? Sorry I guess I generally just assume people mean what they say.
[/quote]
As stated before, our DoW came after us defining what an alliance is and what isn't in our charter. Therefore, us calling KN an "alliance" is sarcastic.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285464024' post='2464735']
I'm not sure what everyone is crying about here. The argument was originally not whether NPO refused to recognize Methrage as a rogue and thus not sanction him but rather that NPO refused to because of our "participation" in the so called red raiding safari, regardless of their position on Methrage's rogue status. Now we've got Jim's situation, where NPO is now claiming he is not a rogue because Methrage is not a rogue, even though they would have sanctioned Methrage had the safari not been an issue.

[b]And no, no one is demanding NPO do anything, we're just pointing it out.[/b]
[/quote]

Repeating it over and over isnt just pointing it out, its crying and moaning that you havent got your way over several pages.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Choson' timestamp='1285464053' post='2464736']
As stated before, our DoW came after us defining what an alliance is and what isn't in our charter. Therefore, us calling KN an "alliance" is sarcastic.
[/quote]
Your charter allows for you guys to decide what to consider an alliance based on circumstances, so your charter has nothing to do with it since under the circumstances you treated it like an alliance war.

[Biazt]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1285465186' post='2464745']
Repeating it over and over isnt just pointing it out, its crying and moaning that you havent got your way over several pages.
[/quote]
Who's crying? We're only setting the record straight for those who don't know what they're talking about.

People like you, for example.

[RePePe]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285464024' post='2464735']
I'm not sure what everyone is crying about here. The argument was originally not whether NPO refused to recognize Methrage as a rogue and thus not sanction him but rather that [b]NPO refused to because of our "participation" in the so called red raiding safari[/b], regardless of their position on Methrage's rogue status. Now we've got Jim's situation, where NPO is now claiming he is not a rogue because Methrage is not a rogue, even though they would have sanctioned Methrage had the safari not been an issue.

And no, no one is demanding NPO do anything, we're just pointing it out.
[/quote]

I know reading can be difficult sometimes, but Cortath himself, among others, have said countless times that they did not consider Methrage a rogue but rather the leader of a legitimate alliance, and this was the reason to deny the sanction. The situation regarding the red raiding safari was merely a fortunate coincidence for them, but by no means the reason behind their choice. They decided it was not their place to get involved in an alliance war between GOONS and Kerberos Nexus.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285465337' post='2464748']
Who's crying? We're only setting the record straight for those who don't know what they're talking about.

People like you, for example.
[/quote]

But you have been answered pages ago that red dawn view methrage and his members as an alliance, just because GOONS view any AA under 15 isnt an alliance doesnt mean everyone else has to follow your rules and charter, how hard is that to understand?

So if you carried on after being told, then it is crying and moaning.

Edited September 26, 2010 by the rebel

[Bilrow]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1285465673' post='2464758']
I know reading can be difficult sometimes, but Cortath himself, among others, have said countless times that they did not consider Methrage a rogue but rather the leader of a legitimate alliance, and this was the reason to deny the sanction. The situation regarding the red raiding safari was merely a fortunate coincidence for them, but by no means the reason behind their choice. They decided it was not their place to get involved in an alliance war between GOONS and Kerberos Nexus.
[/quote]

Ultimately, it was a Red Dawn decision. I guess some people forget that we don't own the red team.

[Biazt]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1285465673' post='2464758']
I know reading can be difficult sometimes, but Cortath himself, among others, have said countless times that they did not consider Methrage a rogue but rather the leader of a legitimate alliance, and this was the reason to deny the sanction. The situation regarding the red raiding safari was merely a fortunate coincidence for them, but by no means the reason behind their choice. They decided it was not their place to get involved in an alliance war between GOONS and Kerberos Nexus.
[/quote]
It's pretty obvious they're backpedaling to cover their asses since they're now completely contradicting what reason they gave us for refusing to sanction Methrage:

<Cortath[NPO]> Well, while I might normally agree with your opinion on whether or not he is a legitimate alliance, I'm afraid that we are not going to sanction him, as long as GOONS continues is policy of deliberating targeting Red nations in this so-called Red Raiding Safari.

In other words, NPO would sanction him (a rogue) had the red raiding safari not existed. If you continue to claim that he's not a rogue then why would NPO have consented to sanction him otherwise?

Edited September 26, 2010 by Biazt

[Banksy]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1285465673' post='2464758']
I know reading can be difficult sometimes, but Cortath himself, among others, have said countless times that they did not consider Methrage a rogue but rather the leader of a legitimate alliance, and this was the reason to deny the sanction. The situation regarding the red raiding safari was merely a fortunate coincidence for them, but by no means the reason behind their choice. They decided it was not their place to get involved in an alliance war between GOONS and Kerberos Nexus.
[/quote]
Keep towing the party line!

[Bilrow]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285398386' post='2464088']
Beef, I'll say it a tenth time, on September 6th NPO and CoJ came to the conclusion that Meth is not a rogue and shouldn't be sanctioned. I gave you the logs which are very explicit. When we started talking about it, we also realized the irony of the situation. It had to be pretty clear to you that if you asked CoJ and NPO for a sanction and it didn't happen in the next two weeks that it wasn't going to happen. You asked again, anyway, and Cortath voiced NPO's opinion which was in excess of the reason that the sanction was not going to happen. Now here you come playing victim of the ebil NPO that ole boogeyman. Here's a protip: The war will end a lot faster if you drop the $90m figure than by sanctions, anyway.
[/quote]


To stop Biazt's spin cycle.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Bilrow

[RePePe]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285465859' post='2464763']
It's pretty obvious they're backpedaling to cover their asses since they're now completely contradicting what reason they gave us for refusing to sanction Methrage:

<Cortath[NPO]> Well, while I might normally agree with your opinion on whether or not he is a legitimate alliance, I'm afraid that we are not going to sanction him, as long as GOONS continues is policy of deliberating targeting Red nations in this so-called Red Raiding Safari.

In other words, NPO would sanction him (a rogue) had the red raiding safari not existed. If you continue to claim that he's not a rogue then why would NPO have consented to sanction him otherwise?
[/quote]

And as has also been repeated, those logs came a couple of weeks after the real decision maker (Red Dawn in unison) decided that Methrage was not a rogue and they would thus agree to deny the sanction this way. The log you provide from Cortath seems like an attempt at some political gain with no real substantive effect on, or meaning regarding, the sanction.