GOON spy orders

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1285398629' post='2464091']
The whole world wants to tech-raid red? I'm intrigued by this. Verrrrry intrigued.
[/quote]
Yes, you've told the entire world they can't raid red, whether they want to or not.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285398872' post='2464100']
Yeah! Didn't you hear? The [i]whole world[/i] was so enticed to raid Red that no one even noticed that the Revenge Doctrine was in place for the entirety of NPO's peace terms, and post-peace terms for a year. Then when GOONS got a standard cease-and-desist PM, the whole world (GOONS and a few allies constituting "the world") got their pitchforks out. And now, according to Beefspari, the whole world can expect the ebil NPO to refuse to sanction "rogues" for them.
[/quote]

No actually, we killed that in the surrender terms, then NPO E-lawyered their way out of it and we didn't care enough to re-declare on them for breaking terms.

Edited September 25, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285399007' post='2464105']
Yes, you've told the entire world they can't raid red, whether they want to or not.
[/quote]

This is a use of the word "you" with which I am previously unfamiliar.

--

I'd say a good portion of the "world" would be quite happy if no raiding occurred at all (here of course I mean the kind of cowardly raiding that so many seem to favor). Raiding on red is a subset of that. If I could I'd draw a little QED square. Other issues aside, a lot of people were happy with the net effect of the Revenge Doctrine, even people who have every reason to hate the NPO.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1285399615' post='2464115']
This is a use of the word "you" with which I am previously unfamiliar.

--

I'd say a good portion of the "world" would be quite happy if no raiding occurred at all (here of course I mean the kind of cowardly raiding that so many seem to favor). Raiding on red is a subset of that. If I could I'd draw a little QED square. Other issues aside, a lot of people were happy with the net effect of the Revenge Doctrine, even people who have every reason to hate the NPO.
[/quote]

I think its a matter of realistic expectations. Lots of alliances don't raid. Lots of other alliances raid. If you want to forbid raiding you either need widespread cooperation (most likely from more than one political group) or enough power to make your decree stick.

Others have done more realistic approaches, brown now has a protected AA, and the idea is not new, citadel had one for ages. Protected AA's are an established standard in CN that don't generate controversy. Trying to claim standing over a whole team is something more controversial that raiding alliances will take exception to and will be met with resistance.

Edit for clarity: NPO (and red dawn as a whole) failed to secure either the military might or diplomatic cooperation needed to move forward with claiming an entire sphere as off limits to raiders. They have a policy that they lack the ability to enforce, and that lacks international support. This is by definition a bad policy. Its not about ideals at all but simply about what is possible.

Edited September 25, 2010 by TypoNinja

[silentkiller]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1285399042' post='2464107']
No actually, we killed that in the surrender terms, then NPO E-lawyered their way out of it and we didn't care enough to re-declare on them for breaking terms.
[/quote]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1279607716' post='2380182']
Actually, we who wrote it and negotiated it can [i]deny [/i]that. It was written with the express intent of allowing the modified version of Revenge to stand, specifically. There was conversation about it and a thread amongst the respective alliances, then a negotiation with NPO on the subject. Ironically enough, I believe that particular term was written by Revanche/Denial, currently residing in MK.

Good luck to everyone involved.
[/quote]
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=89371&view=findpost&p=2380182

You're welcome.

Edited September 25, 2010 by silentkiller

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='silentkiller' timestamp='1285401972' post='2464136']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=89371&view=findpost&p=2380182

You're welcome.
[/quote]

Eh the perils of posting late at night. I wasn't government then, mixed up my view as member with what the alliance was doing. Everything blurs together at 3 am

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285399007' post='2464105']
[...veiled threats against red team because they don't follow our instructions...]
[/quote]

All tyranny needs to take hold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. - Thomas Jefferson

[Hyperbad]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1285398220' post='2464084']
There's a big difference here.

Red Raiding Safari is about NPO vs the world. Other alliances who want to raid on red and don't believe that NPO should get to tell the rest of the world they can't raid on a whole sphere of unaligned nations.

Sanction is about GOONS vs Methrage (or GOONS vs Jim), but red is trying to make it about GOONS vs NPO. They're inserting bias into their decision-making, inventing a new precedent and distracting from the actual issue at hand. NPO is not part of the equation other than having a senator, but they're inserting themselves into the situation and making their decision on whether or not to deal with a nuclear rogue based on that.
[/quote]
I can not verify the veracity of your claims regarding Cortath, nor can I verify that the logs accurately reflect his perspective or if he said those things with a particular purpose in mind. What I can do is comment to the effect of asserting that there is room in some definitions for Jim not to be automatically associated with the term rogue and instead for it to be judged on a case by case basis. Some of these definitions have been evolving recently - still before the whole conflict with Methrage incident mind you - others not quite so recently or as much. Despite your not having any real way to know this I find it an odd thing to take the statements of one leader on a team and jump to the conclusion that all feel this way particularly since, or at least as of a few pages ago (I stopped reading on page five when it was started and returned after being referred back to it) when it was yourself who brought the NPO and what their leader had said into discussion with the only other alliance to present hold a seat on the same team. My colleague and leader was merely attempting to explain the origins of their position and how it all started. Whether it then evolved into something new or there was a particular reason other than Cortath honestly felt that way, I do not know. He would be the best person to shine some light on it. Still, it wouldn't be the first time someone said something simply to see if they might profit from it if that was indeed the case, but I say that as someone who hasn't had many dealings with the NPO.

[quote]And by doing nothing they've decided not to deal with a nuclear rogue. Because of something that has nothing to do with either Methrage or Jim.[/quote]
I think if you comb this thread you will find some commentary on why doing nothing has been decided. What it really boils down to though is it's not good enough for you to accept. Perhaps it differs too greatly from your own general perspective on these things, perhaps your being an involved party has clouded your judgment or perhaps it just wasn't explained clearly or thoroughly enough between the tangents. Perhaps further discourse of an inquiring nature would assist in remedying this misunderstanding.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Hyperbad

[Sephiroth]

Kerberos Nexus has now increased to 5 members and our total NS is 156,911 and Avg NS is 31,474. While GOONS has been losing NS and getting weaker in this war, Kerberos Nexus only grows stronger and increases in numbers.

I'm glad to have JimKongIl among our ranks and would appreciate any senators removing sanctions from our alliance members. We're already fighting a war with the odds stacked against us, all these sanctions are unnecessary. GOONS shouldn't be getting alliances they're not even allied to using their senate seats to try helping them win, considering we are a better alliance than GOONS.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285389532' post='2463937']
Of course it's not your place. You have no influence in any of the senates. However, the governments that are important and actually decide these things have decided it IS their place.
[/quote]
Schattenmann is the leader of the Cult of Justitia.

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=255284

This is a Red Team senator. Observe the AA.

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285391219' post='2463980']
As for the alliance recognition deal, it's right in our charter
[/quote]
Interpreting your charter is not our business.

[quote name='magicmountain' timestamp='1285392422' post='2463999']
I'm afraid I don't share your assessment, it seems to me that Methrage just likes to be in wars.
[/quote]
Presumably this aggressiveness distinguishes him from GOONS, who as we all know are peaceloving and just hate to be in wars.

[quote name='bzelger' timestamp='1285393810' post='2464029']
You're surprised that NPO isn't interested in doing you a favor while you're actively flipping them the bird?
[/quote]
Of course they are. Why would anyone try to oppose the powers that be? That's certainly not GOONS policy.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1285394328' post='2464036']
NPO should be more worried about the standard, and pray they never need a sanction in the future from GOONS or any of their allies.

There is a reason things like sanctioning nuclear rogues has always been apolitical, its a can of worms no sane person wants to open.
[/quote]
Here's the problem. Nobody ever needs a sanction. Getting sanctions is useful in fighting, but it's not necessary.

And, no, sanctioning nuclear rogues has never been apolitical.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1285395799' post='2464052']
Fortunately the GGA is gone, so those days are behind us.
[/quote]
lolwut

[img]http://web.me.com/danflemming/cn/VE_sanctioning_NPO.png[/img]

That's not a GGA senator.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285395971' post='2464053']
So, Schattenmann, riddle me this. What if, in theory, myself and a couple friends of mine left GOONS tomorrow, formed our own AA with a charter but did not form any meaningful diplomatic relations, built up a nuclear stockpile and declared on Cult of Justitia for whatever reason a few months later? Are you telling me that I would not be sanctioned by Red within the day? Or is there some arcane difference in the two situations and a sanction would be justified?
[/quote]
They weren't sanctioned for hitting Grämlins either, you know.

[agafaba]

[quote name='Choader' timestamp='1285397861' post='2464079']
Forgive my stupidity then, but since when has a gather intel mission on an unaligned nation been an [size="4"][color="#FF0000"]Act of War[/color][/size] absolving a nation of any aggression past and present? These are some funny precedents you're trying to set.
[/quote]
The only reason the precedent was set that everyone can do anything to an unaligned back when people realized they didnt have anyone who could say otherwise. Not everyone agrees with the "do what you want and if they retaliate they are rogues" mentality. (as for him aiding Methrage making him a rogue or not is a different matter)

Also Methrage had his AA for over 4 months, he was the leader of an alliance before he was warring GOONS.

[Timmmehhh]

It's kinda lame that NPO is not sanctioning the nuclear rogue JimKongII, and allows him to trade with the red team.
Salmacis ( http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=201168 ) who went rogue on NPO got sanctions on all colors (black, aqua and orange included). These colors helped you sanctioning your rogue but you won't return the favor, when the alliances on those colors have a similar request

Edited September 25, 2010 by Timmehhh

[Cortath]

The New Pacific Order does not own the Red Sphere. Once upon a time, we would have said that we do, but those days are long gone.

The New Pacific Order signed a treaty, called the Red Dawn Treaty, that requires coordination and unified policy on matters of trades, economic interactions and the Senate of the Red Sphere. A Senate sharing policy was put in place.

Beefspari, of GOONS, contacted the New Pacific Order through one of my officers regarding this sanction. Red Dawn deliberated, and we decided not to grant the sanction. I contacted Beefspari when Beefspari left a message for me to contact them through one of my Imperial Officers.

The conversation between Beefspari and myself demonstrates that Beefspari still believes that the NPO owns the Red Sphere. We do not. We share the Red Sphere with a multiplicity of alliances, most of whom have unified their policies on matters such as the Senate through the Red Dawn treaty. While Beefspari repeatedly attempts to elicit my personal and my alliance's views on matters, those views are irrelevant. The New Pacific Order's views on rogues and sanctioning are the views of Red Dawn, and the views of Red Dawn have been most adequately stated privately to the relevant parties and publicly in this thread.

[Xavii]

[quote name='bzelger' timestamp='1285394430' post='2464039']
The Red Raiding Safari was not intended to snub the NPO?

Regardless, it's their senator, not yours. There's no obligation to sanction for another alliance; it's done either for friendship or in an expectation of reciprocity. U[b]mbrella has declined to sanction nuclear rogues for us in the past.[/b] We didn't get worked up over it, we just went elsewhere. GOONS has done us the courtesy of sanctioning our rogues on occasion and we've returned the favor in spite of our alliances not getting along. If the NPO doesn't opt into a informal reciprocal sanction arrangement with you that's certainly their perogative.
[/quote]
This is news to me, please PM me details.

edit: also reading Red Dawns obvious bias regarding sanctions, I will keep that in mind should they need a sanction in the future.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Xavii

[Choson]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285403934' post='2464149']
Interpreting your charter is not our business.
[/quote]
Wrong, sir! Wrong!

Under the section titled "[b]Tech Raiding[/b]" of the charter signed by the GOONS Government, it states quite clearly what defines an alliance -- and you can read it for yourself in this photostatic copy -- "An 'alliance'" is defined as a group of 15 or more," et cetera, et cetera... "Smaller groups are recognized by the presence of diplomatic ties," et cetera, et cetera... "Exceptions may be made both for smaller groups we wish to recognize and larger groups we do not, should the government so decide!"

It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal!

You lose! Good day, sir!

In other words, there's no interpretation necessary.

[img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-ms.gif[/img]

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1285413686' post='2464197']
It's kinda lame that NPO is not sanctioning the nuclear rogue JimKongII, and allows him to trade with the red team.
Salmacis ( http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=201168 ) who went rogue on NPO got sanctions on all colors (black, aqua and orange included). These colors helped you sanctioning your rogue but you won't return the favor, when the alliances on those colors have a similar request
[/quote]

Fortunate for NPO that Salmacis didn't have some fake two man AA with his brother's nation, or he wouldn't have been a rogue and therefore wouldn't have gotten sanctioned. I mean this kind of sets a dangerous precedent for red in the event that someone who was so inclined decided to start an "alliance" of two on red and go rogue on them.

I sure hope that doesn't happen!

[citizenkane]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285416224' post='2464209']
The New Pacific Order does not own the Red Sphere. Once upon a time, we would have said that we do, but those days are long gone.

The New Pacific Order signed a treaty, called the Red Dawn Treaty, that requires coordination and unified policy on matters of trades, economic interactions and the Senate of the Red Sphere. A Senate sharing policy was put in place.

Beefspari, of GOONS, contacted the New Pacific Order through one of my officers regarding this sanction. Red Dawn deliberated, and we decided not to grant the sanction. I contacted Beefspari when Beefspari left a message for me to contact them through one of my Imperial Officers.

The conversation between Beefspari and myself demonstrates that Beefspari still believes that the NPO owns the Red Sphere. We do not. We share the Red Sphere with a multiplicity of alliances, most of whom have unified their policies on matters such as the Senate through the Red Dawn treaty. While Beefspari repeatedly attempts to elicit my personal and my alliance's views on matters, those views are irrelevant. The New Pacific Order's views on rogues and sanctioning are the views of Red Dawn, and the views of Red Dawn have been most adequately stated privately to the relevant parties and publicly in this thread.
[/quote]

What you're actually saying here, is that if anyone wants to come to red and hit GOONS, we will allow that.

You don't own the red sphere, but you do have a majority control of the red sphere.

[Cortath]

[quote name='citizenkane' timestamp='1285418315' post='2464220']
What you're actually saying here, is that if anyone wants to come to red and hit GOONS, we will allow that.

You don't own the red sphere, but you do have a majority control of the red sphere.
[/quote]

I think you misunderstand what a "rogue" is.

The prototypical rogue was probably born sometime in 2006. They wanted to leave the game. They had nukes. They declared war on Emperor Ivan Moldavi of the New Pacific Order. They nuked him. We retaliated. The nation was ZIed and then ceased to exist. You might note that Moldavi still has zero infrastructure to this day. ([url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=308533]link[/url]).

A "rogue" is not a nation, who in, say, responding to offensive spy attacks, warns GOONS of continuing such actions, and then attack GOONS. That is not a rogue. That is a nation responding to offensive military actions against them.

A "rogue" is not a nation, who upon being raided by an alliance, responds with nuclear weapons.

The concept of a "rogue" is not "a singular nation doing something I do not like," but rather, "a singular nation doing something for no discernible political reason (i.e. !#$%s and giggles)." A "rogue" is not "a small alliance with a clear political objective that is in opposition to my own," but rather "a singular nation who has discarded any pretense of engaging in politics on the world stage and wishes to engage in actions with the end goal of their nation no longer existing."

To others:

The idea that the Red Dawn is "aiding" Methrage is quite preposterous. If we were aiding Methrage, you would not be seeing tens of nuclear weapons flying your way, but thousands. You would not be beset by two nations, but by hundreds. Count your blessings, comrade, for we are not "aiding" Methrage. That we are not interceding on your behalf against him is not "aid" but "inaction." Aid requires an overt act, which we have declined to perform.

Also, let me say that all this faux outrage amuses me quite a bit. GOONS is an alliance of hundreds of nations. Methrage is in an alliance of two nations. The thought that GOONS is either so weak or Methrage so strong as to earn so much bloviating on the matter from GOONS would almost make a more cynical man think there's a political agenda somewhere.

Edited September 25, 2010 by Cortath

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419081' post='2464224']
You might note that Moldavi still has zero infrastructure to this day. ([url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=308533]link[/url]).
[/quote]

Irrelevant point. Moldavi has zero infrastructure because he doesn't give a !@#$ about nation building.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419081' post='2464224']
The idea that the Red Dawn is "aiding" Methrage is quite preposterous. If we were aiding Methrage, you would not be seeing tens of nuclear weapons flying your way, but thousands. You would not be beset by two nations, but by hundreds. Count your blessings, comrade, for we are not "aiding" Methrage. That we are not interceding on your behalf against him is not "aid" but "inaction." Aid requires an overt act, which we have declined to perform.
[/quote]

Believe you me, I would *love* to fight the NPO. I happily invite you to declare war on us.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1285419411' post='2464226']
Believe you me, I would *love* to fight the NPO. I happily invite you to declare war on us.
[/quote]

Your bravado is as foolish as your love.

[citizenkane]

[u]Exhibit A[/u]

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?searchstring=Declaring_Alliance%2CReceiving_Alliance&search=Kerberos Nexus&anyallexact=exact"]Link #1[/url] Shows the entire of the alliance that methrage is in is warring MK and GOONS.

[u]Exhibit B[/u]

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_news.asp?Page=1&Order=DESC&Field=Attack_Date&Search=Kerberos Nexus&SearchBy=Nation_Alliance&View=S#nukes"]This link[/url] contains a list of nations which have been hit by nuclear weapons by methrage's alliance

These current round of wars have no CB, are nuclear, you could say the [u][i]entire alliance[/i][/u] has gone rogue. Why no sanction, NPO?

[Xavii]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419081' post='2464224']
A "rogue" is not a nation, who in, say, responding to offensive spy attacks, warns GOONS of continuing such actions, and then attack GOONS. That is not a rogue. That is a nation responding to offensive military actions against them.
[/quote]
Except GOONS never spied him, FOK and MK did, and still he declared on GOONS. Not a rogue?

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419081' post='2464224']
The idea that the Red Dawn is "aiding" Methrage is quite preposterous. If we were aiding Methrage, you would not be seeing tens of nuclear weapons flying your way, but thousands. You would not be beset by two nations, but by hundreds. Count your blessings, comrade, for we are not "aiding" Methrage. That we are not interceding on your behalf against him is not "aid" but "inaction." Aid requires an overt act, which we have declined to perform.
[/quote]
Your obvious bias in your choice to follow the route of "inaction" I would argue that while you are not overtly "aiding" Methrage, you agree with his actions and "aid" him by "inaction".

Edited September 25, 2010 by Xavii

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419718' post='2464229']
Your bravado is as foolish as your love.
[/quote]

Nobody is afraid of you. We'd attack you in a heartbeat if you'd just provide us a casus belli.

[MikeCrotch]

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419081' post='2464224']
A "rogue" is not a nation, who in, say, responding to offensive spy attacks, warns GOONS of continuing such actions, and then attack GOONS. That is not a rogue. That is a nation responding to offensive military actions against them.
[/quote]

So if we give secret aid to a nation that you're at war with and you spy on us to find out we did it after already gathering some proof, you won't mind if we declare war on you? Thanks, that's some valuable information.

[quote name='Cortath' timestamp='1285419081' post='2464224']
Also, let me say that all this faux outrage amuses me quite a bit. GOONS is an alliance of hundreds of nations. Methrage is in an alliance of two nations. The thought that GOONS is either so weak or Methrage so strong as to earn so much bloviating on the matter from GOONS would almost make a more cynical man think there's a political agenda somewhere.
[/quote]

bloviating - present participle of blo·vi·ate
Verb: Talk at length, esp. in an inflated or empty way.

Last time we checked we weren't the ones making threads moaning about GONS . Also isn't using the word bloviating itself bloviating? We aren't don't all have English degrees you know.