UOKMB declares war with Goons

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Uralica' timestamp='1283796110' post='2444054']
Not that I agree with Xavii's actions here, but if one is going to complain about sanctioning standards, one might want to deal with the sanctioning of [i]one-off non-nuclear[/i] rogues first. At least these guys actually went nuclear. I know some senators who would sanction new, small nations for simply attacking their alliance and not knowing any better. That, IMO, is true sanction abuse.[/quote]

You're talking like anyone here actually cares about sanctioning standards and this isn't just an excuse to bring some boring political drama into a thread to make GOONS look bad so we bicker like a bunch of seventh grade girls instead of talking about this war.

[Uralica]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1283796379' post='2444065']
You're talking like anyone here actually cares about sanctioning standards and this isn't just an excuse to bring some boring political drama into a thread to make GOONS look bad so we bicker like a bunch of seventh grade girls instead of talking about this war.
[/quote]

Point taken. I should have indicated that this was a call for andre27 to sort out his own sphere before calling someone else's out.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283795866' post='2444047']
If you had bothered reading the next sentence you would have your answer.
[/quote]

Which is open to interpretation, so feel free to enlighten me.

[nippy]

[quote name='Uralica' timestamp='1283796453' post='2444068']
Point taken. I should have indicated that this was a call for andre27 to sort out his own sphere before calling someone else's out.
[/quote]

I don't know, man...it must be hard to see anything else when your nose is so firmly planted in Methrage's posteriour.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1283796241' post='2444058']
Well you're absolutley right about that.

Where's Polaris when you need them?
[/quote]
Could you be a dear and go find them for us, please?

[nutkase]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1283796181' post='2444057']
I've said this exact same thing. I prefer 'AA' as opposed to 'alliance', as use of the word 'alliance' when talking about something that isn't an alliance makes my head do loopty loops..
[/quote]

I hope more people within GOONS take heed of this.

[steviewonder]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1283796379' post='2444065']
You're talking like anyone here actually cares about sanctioning standards and this isn't just an excuse to bring some boring political drama into a thread to make GOONS look bad so we bicker like a bunch of seventh grade girls instead of talking about this war.
[/quote]

With their nukes perhaps.

In all other facets from the battle reports posted they've done barely anything (par exemple: sending over 20 level 9 bombers per aircraft attack and proceeding to lose most of them) and have very, very average warchests.

[Bob Janova]

The sanctions and the 'do something about it' response of GOONS to the idea that their definition of 'alliance' is too restrictive are disappointing. This alliance has a purpose, a clear organisational structure and a chain of command – it's clearly a real alliance. However, since it's chosen as its purpose 'attacking GOONS' I don't see them being particularly successful.

[Dr Beefstupid]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1283796595' post='2444077']
I hope more people within GOONS take heed of this.
[/quote]

Guys, some people like to nitpick the meanings of two very similar-sounding terms. I think your entire alliance should consider this and rewrite their entire constitution based on my personal feelings of confusion over this.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1283795017' post='2444035']
If there are any huge AAs out there that consider a 50-nation AA to still be rogues, they would have a lot of political scorn.
[/quote]

"Political scorn" sums up the issue well as that is what I see the entire alliance size debate to be. However, when it really comes down to it, I think at best it's a minor point, especially in this case. The raid was "legal" by GOONS standards. UOKMB has the ability as a group (alliance or not) to declare war on GOONS as they wish in response to the raid. I don't hear anyone saying they can't.

What I want to know from someone at GOONS is, do your rules allow for a nation to use a nuke in a raid?

*WC starts reading the GOONS charter*

Well, based on what I see on the Wiki, there is no reference to the use of nukes in the charter. Is there an internal policy and, if so, what is it?

Edited September 6, 2010 by White Chocolate

[Alterego]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283796640' post='2444079']
However, since it's chosen as its purpose 'attacking GOONS' I don't see them being particularly successful.
[/quote]
I assume you mean long term success.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283796640' post='2444079']
The sanctions and the 'do something about it' response of GOONS to the idea that their definition of 'alliance' is too restrictive are disappointing. This alliance has a purpose, a clear organisational structure and a chain of command – it's clearly a real alliance. However, since it's chosen as its purpose 'attacking GOONS' I don't see them being particularly successful.
[/quote]
Regardless of their intent, GOONS do not recognize an 8-man AA with no treaties or allies as a real alliance. They may have goals and organization, but they do not meet our qualifications. We have standards and rules, mostly to prevent small groups of rogues from banding together and technically getting to avoid sanctions and other nonsense.

Which sounds familiar. It's almost like such a thing has happened twice this month and if we considered 2 people an alliance it would only hinder us pointlessly. Hmm.

[Horatio Longworth]

Hmm. What would have happened if you had treaties? I wonder.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1283796580' post='2444076']
Could you be a dear and go find them for us, please?
[/quote]
Why certainly, I'm always happy to be of assistance.

Don't you go nowhere now

[Tigerdonia Redux]

[quote name='thekirbyfake' timestamp='1283767752' post='2443602']
To be clear, this is a UOKMB war with Goons.

You can have my 3m but that's where our association with Nexus ends.
[/quote]

/claps

You may be rogueing my ally, but at least you aren't associating with Methrage.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283796640' post='2444079']
The sanctions and the 'do something about it' response of GOONS to the idea that their definition of 'alliance' is too restrictive are disappointing. This alliance has a purpose, a clear organisational structure and a chain of command – it's clearly a real alliance. However, since it's chosen as its purpose 'attacking GOONS' I don't see them being particularly successful.
[/quote]

I agree, but more because GOONS seem to like war as opposed to the size of the group/alliance (an alliance by *my* standards) that is attacking them.

What I find rather disturbing here is the use of the nuke in the raid. I want to know if THAT is considered acceptable or not by official GOON standards.

(No doubt individual members of GOONS have their own opinions).

Edited September 6, 2010 by White Chocolate

[Mandolus]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283796640' post='2444079']
The sanctions and the 'do something about it' response of GOONS to the idea that their definition of 'alliance' is too restrictive are disappointing.
[/quote]

We're just absolutely sick of the constant, pointless bickering and whining in every GOONS thread. It's absolutely pathetic. If you hate us so much, attack us. Stop whining about us and trying to make us "look bad".

Edit: To clarify, I meant "you" in the general sense not "you" personally

Edited September 6, 2010 by Mandolus

[JT Jag]

In regards to the nuke used in the raid of one and a half months ago, our general policy is to not use cruise missiles, nukes or any other debilitating tactic on a raid-ee that would have no advantage for us in terms of gathering tech.

Unless the nation being raiding counterattacks without even trying to get peace. Then all bets are off, because it ceases being a tech raid and becomes a war.

I think it's safe to assume this is what happened here.

Edited September 6, 2010 by JT Jag

[Sardonic]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1283796484' post='2444070']
Which is open to interpretation, so feel free to enlighten me.
[/quote]
No it really isn't, it says there in plain English that diplomatic ties make an alliance of less than 15 valid.
[quote name='Batallion' timestamp='1283796322' post='2444061']
UOKMB will deal some heavy damages to GOONS, this DoW shouldn't be taken lightly. This is actually a pretty legitimate war, good luck to all involved, and especially to my friends in UOKMB.
[/quote]
Whatever terrible, terrible damage they do to us is easily offset by the upswining in activity.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1283796640' post='2444079']
The sanctions and the 'do something about it' response of GOONS to the idea that their definition of 'alliance' is too restrictive are disappointing. This alliance has a purpose, a clear organisational structure and a chain of command – it's clearly a real alliance. However, since it's chosen as its purpose 'attacking GOONS' I don't see them being particularly successful.
[/quote]
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this, sanctions are a tool to be used against rogues. A band of rogues, no matter how organized, is still a band of rogues. I would expect any alliance to use sanctions against an organized resistance movement.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1283797582' post='2444106']
In regards to the nuke used in the raid of one and a half months ago, our general policy is to not use cruise missiles, nukes or any other debilitating tactic on a raid-ee that would have no advantage for us in terms of gathering tech.

Unless the nation being raiding counterattacks without even trying to get peace. Then all bets are off, because it ceases being a tech raid and becomes a war.

I think it's safe to assume this is what happened here.
[/quote]

Any difference if the nation being raided has a nuke or not? My guess is that most GOONS wouldn't attack a nation in a raid who does have nukes (as it's counter-productive) so the answer is no - but just making sure.

[JT Jag]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1283797771' post='2444109']
Any difference if the nation being raided has a nuke or not? My guess is that most GOONS wouldn't attack a nation in a raid who does have nukes (as it's counter-productive) so the answer is no - but just making sure.
[/quote]Like I said, all bets are off at that point and those decisions come at the discretion of the raider and the raidee.

[Kindom of Goon]

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1283797443' post='2444102']
We're just absolutely sick of the constant, pointless bickering and whining in every GOONS thread. It's absolutely pathetic. [b]If you hate us so much, attack us[/b]. Stop whining about us and trying to make us "look bad".
[/quote]

Evidently, plenty have.

I don't think anyone needs to try and make you look bad, you manage that all on your own.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='White Chocolate' timestamp='1283797771' post='2444109']
Any difference if the nation being raided has a nuke or not? My guess is that most GOONS wouldn't attack a nation in a raid who does have nukes (as it's counter-productive) so the answer is no - but just making sure.
[/quote]
You've obviously never met Xodi, who gets nuked constantly (and loves it) because he's always raiding people with nukes.

[Ziperia]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1283797698' post='2444107']
No it really isn't, it says there in plain English that diplomatic ties make an alliance of less than 15 valid.
[/quote]
So you are saying that if UOKMB makes a treaty with let's say polaris, neither of them tell anyone what level the treaty is, you consider them an alliance?

[steviewonder]

[quote name='Kindom of Goon' timestamp='1283797940' post='2444116']
Evidently, plenty have.

I don't think anyone needs to try and make you look bad, you manage that all on your own.
[/quote]

Evidently not enough have. Cause most of them ar still foaming at the mouth on here.