Fallen Fool Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Creeping Death' timestamp='1282752690' post='2430918'] Oh, I see.. so then what made you change your mind about their appeal? [/quote]A number of things, including most prominently the fact that GOONS membership continued to elect a certain individual to a high leadership position despite the fact that Almighty Admin had smote him. [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282753749' post='2430930']The argument is just as valid now as it was back then. Were it not for the incident with Grub I am sure we would be on much better terms.[/quote]With Polar perhaps, but not with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nippy Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282757454' post='2430990'] Right. According to Sardonic et al. my unfortunate entry into Neutral Shoving a month or two before the UjW makes me less of a goon than they who were in Neutral Shoving--endorsing its policies and practices with their membership in a democratic alliance--longer than me. By their reasoning, those people are goonier than themselves, but in a magnificent logical derailing those more senior people don't [/quote] Your entry into Neutral Shoving is irrelevant. You had barely a grasp of who the alliance was before it fell apart. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282757454' post='2430990'] Continuing, on the "no, I'm older" moronity. Congrats. Several of us have said that Negligence/Sadism is not very much different in policy than Neutral Shoving. So, if I find someone older than you to say the same, are you now incorrect? [/quote] Yes, you should definitely find someone else that can conduct your argument for you...good idea. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282757454' post='2430990'] I am not asking VE to justify its treaty; I've stated in simple terms exactly why I'm not at all stunned by the treaty itself and voiced my opinion that I'm more surprised that GOONS wanted a treaty with VE. The huge controversy is my statement that they're not much different; not that it's bad, not that it's good; I even like a lot of goons. But you see them go ape!@#$ at any mention of their identity, and I can't help that. Maybe if they're so sensitive about who's a real goon and who's not a real goon and which GOONS is most representative of goons, then they should change their name or stop reading this forum. WarriorConcept, you odn't have the chip on your shoulder. Why don't you say what's so different if there are so many glaring differences that me and Hal and D34th and Fallen Fool and so many other people--who may or may not be older or younger than you and therefore more or less right than you--just can't see? I've already acknowledged they're better at FA than Neutral Shoving, go one from there, I'm all ears: [/quote] There you go with that horribly overrated e-lawyering again. You pop into this thread with such claims as "Yeah. VE is the sort of alliance goons generally snicker about in the private channel and call gaywads whenever they get the chance, so--to me--it's more surprising that GOONS signed with VE than that VE signed another left-field", and yet when we get defensive about such comments, you're claiming you're just 'mentioning our identity'. Can you spot the disparity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282757454' post='2430990'] Continuing, on the "no, I'm older" moronity. Congrats. Several of us have said that Negligence/Sadism is not very much different in policy than Neutral Shoving. So, if I find someone older than you to say the same, are you now incorrect? I'm old enough to have blasted CIS when they sanctioned you on black flying Neutral Shoving after the Emperor tossed you out of Francograd. I am not asking VE to justify its treaty; I've stated in simple terms exactly why I'm not at all stunned by the treaty itself and voiced my opinion that I'm more surprised that GOONS wanted a treaty with VE. The huge controversy is my statement that they're not much different; not that it's bad, not that it's good; I even like a lot of goons. But you see them go ape!@#$ at any mention of their identity, and I can't help that. Maybe if they're so sensitive about who's a real goon and who's not a real goon and which GOONS is most representative of goons, then they should change their name or stop reading this forum. WarriorConcept, you odn't have the chip on your shoulder. Why don't you say what's so different if there are so many glaring differences that me and Hal and D34th and Fallen Fool and so many other people--who may or may not be older or younger than you and therefore more or less right than you--just can't see? I've already acknowledged they're better at FA than Neutral Shoving, go one from there, I'm all ears: [/quote] The older argument does matter in this case as you are trying to connect two entities from different time periods while missing out almost entirely on one time period. Me being sanctioned by CIS was very late in the matter, after UJW was basically over and doesn't make you seem any older. I'm not saying all this to bash you, simply to show you why you're not the most credible of sources when comparing the old and new GOONS. Also I normally don't see them go "ape!@#$" when their old identity is brought up, normally they are patient about explaining that this is almost an entirely different government and are actively trying to push away their old association as "oppressors" or "evil", hence them actually taking time to respond to the "you're the same as the old goons" argument. And Fallen Fool, D34th, and Ha I'm sure both agree that this is a different GOONS than the one in the past which declared war on an alliance by a whim, hosted shark week, and were dicks a lot to alliances whom they disagreed with even when they were approached diplomatically. While of course they still enjoy tech raiding and to say they are no different than the old GOONS is almost completely off base and the fact that you're trying to push the claim without long enough experience with them is just reaping of opportunism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 What "opportunity" are people who disagree with you seeking to capitalize on? If I've got something to gain here I need to know so I can claim my reward. The sitting government is made up of goons who mostly were not in Neutral Shoving. The previous government was largely Neutral Shoving. The position that their shifting gov roster makes them not like Neutral Shoving is only as valid as the position that their previous set of gov makes them like Neutral Shoving. Just as NPO was able to enforce the Revenge Doctrine because its political position allowed it to, Neutral Shoving was able to do Shark Week because its position allowed it to, and the current GOONS does not have an equitable position. It doesn't mean they wouldn't, it means they can't. If Sardonic, babyjesus, nippy, Umar, bloodjewel, lamuella, etc etc participated in Neutral Shoving Shark Week, why won't they now if they find themselves in a comparable position? What is different about these goons over those goons that they would not do a Shark Week? Both sets hold the same disdain for Digiterran culture in general. How much experience with new GOONS does a person need before they can say whether or not they're dicks to people who appraoch them diplomatically? If I goet kickbanned from their IRC channel by their banned player second-in-command for asking if a perticular member is online at a moment in time so we might trade together, am I now qualified to say that, yes, they are dicks? If GOONS aids a nuke rogue at war with CoJ twice in a row within a month, now am I qualified to say they're dicks? If I get called a gay slur by GOONS gov over my choice of theme, does that qualify me? Who is the judge of how much many times a person has to get burned by GOONS before they can accurately judge their character? You? Clearly, our experience with the same group of people over the same time period is very different. Negligence/Sadism has--by SoE's hand, not their own--been rid of the group of people that were truly harmful and dangerous in the last days of Neutral Shoving. In that respect they are different. Negligence/Sadism does not yet have the power of Neutral Shoving, so they are on a different part of the curve. Negligence/Sadism's core sense of humor and culture, though, is the same. Their High War Adjudicator is the same. Their raiding is the same. Their attitude about pubbies is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nippy Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] What "opportunity" are people who disagree with you seeking to capitalize on? If I've got something to gain here I need to know so I can claim my reward. [/quote] That which you crave the most, Schatt. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] The sitting government is made up of goons who mostly were not in Neutral Shoving. The previous government was largely Neutral Shoving. [/quote] None of which were in Neutral Shoving government. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] The position that their shifting gov roster makes them not like Neutral Shoving is only as valid as the position that their previous set of gov makes them like Neutral Shoving. Just as NPO was able to enforce the Revenge Doctrine because its political position allowed it to, Neutral Shoving was able to do Shark Week because its position allowed it to, and the current GOONS does not have an equitable position. It doesn't mean they wouldn't, it means they can't. [/quote] It also doesn't mean we [i]will[/i]. You're basically admitting to baseless assumptions here. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] If Sardonic, babyjesus, nippy, Umar, bloodjewel, lamuella, etc etc participated in Neutral Shoving Shark Week, why won't they now if they find themselves in a comparable position? What is different about these goons over those goons that they would not do a Shark Week? [/quote] Once again, it's not the same government that came up with 'Shark Week'. Shark Week existed prior to your entry into Neutral Shoving anyway, so I don't know why you're hung up on it. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] Both sets hold the same disdain for Digiterran culture in general. [/quote] Bold claim. It's too bad it's unfounded. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] How much experience with new GOONS does a person need before they can say whether or not they're dicks to people who appraoch them diplomatically? If I goet kickbanned from their IRC channel by their banned player second-in-command for asking if a perticular member is online at a moment in time so we might trade together, am I now qualified to say that, yes, they are dicks? If GOONS aids a nuke rogue at war with CoJ twice in a row within a month, now am I qualified to say they're dicks? If I get called a gay slur by GOONS gov over my choice of theme, does that qualify me? Who is the judge of how much many times a person has to get burned by GOONS before they can accurately judge their character? You? Clearly, our experience with the same group of people over the same time period is very different.[/quote] You're a special case, Schatt. You've already clearly made up your mind about us and have only spoken out against us whenever you have the chance. Of [i]course[/i] you're going to be kick-banned. You're not welcome in our channel. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] Negligence/Sadism has--by SoE's hand, not their own--been rid of the group of people that were truly harmful and dangerous in the last days of Neutral Shoving. In that respect they are different. Negligence/Sadism does not yet have the power of Neutral Shoving, so they are on a different part of the curve. Negligence/Sadism's core sense of humor and culture, though, is the same. Their High War Adjudicator is the same. Their raiding is the same. Their attitude about pubbies is the same. [/quote] Our High War Adjudicator is Dr. Beefstupid, whom was never in Neutral Shoving. God, man...do some research before spewing nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deSouza Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1282758446' post='2431009'] And Fallen Fool, D34th, and Ha I'm sure both agree that this is a different GOONS than the one in the past which declared war on an alliance by a whim, hosted shark week, and were dicks a lot to alliances whom they disagreed with even when they were approached diplomatically. While of course they still enjoy tech raiding and to say they are no different than the old GOONS is almost completely off base and the fact that you're trying to push the claim without long enough experience with them is just reaping of opportunism. [/quote] Yeah, old goons was full of brainless pubbies, this one I approve. Nice looking treaty btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='nippy' timestamp='1282760286' post='2431031'] Once again, it's not the same government that came up with 'Shark Week'. Shark Week existed prior to your entry into Neutral Shoving anyway, so I don't know why you're hung up on it.[/quote] I'm not hung up on it and I actually think it was pretty funny, WC brought it up. [quote]You're a special case, Schatt. You've already clearly made up your mind about us and have only spoken out against us whenever you have the chance. Of [i]course[/i] you're going to be kick-banned. You're not welcome in our channel.[/quote] Right. Later today when I'm able I'll post the numerous convos I had with Negligence/Sadism (some of them with you if I recall correctly) trying to figure out what our issues are, conversations which occurred months before we had any OWF run-ins. [quote]Our High War Adjudicator is Dr. Beefstupid, whom was never in Neutral Shoving. God, man...do some research before spewing nonsense.[/quote] lern2english. The position and system are basically the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 Trying to paint them in a negative light by bringing up their past while not having enough experience with both sets to properly judge, in essence speaking without enough knowledge. Also not only was I referring the difference to government as an indication to how different they are, but how they themselves have conducted themselves since their resurrection. I also find it amusing that a person will only be judged on how they governed in the past, I mean I myself was a huge tech raider in the past but I now govern in a most different matter don't I? Similarly the ones you've listed have been showing a very calm demeanor whenever I've seen them post except in rare instances when challenged by people with no other apparent agenda than to just smear them. And yes it seems our experience with them is different, but I'd venture to say that most people's experience with them is most likely not on the same level as the one with you. I know personally I'm on opposite sides of the spectrum with them on raiding and that would naturally make us "enemies" but whenever we've had to interact with them on an issue they have been more than reasonable and always were willing to work with us and talk things out. Perhaps they just don't like you, and the reasons for that I can't be sure of exactly but the fact that they can still get along with people opposite them on certain stances such as myself and even get a treaty with an alliance labeled by many as "moralist" in VE surely means they're not that way to everyone else as they are with you and are probably a reasonable alliance to talk to whom are willing to agree to disagree and work things out for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nippy Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282760711' post='2431041'] lern2english. [/quote] I certainly hope you're speaking to yourself here. Clarity is important when making a point, and you were quite unclear at what you were getting at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktarthan Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] What "opportunity" are people who disagree with you seeking to capitalize on? If I've got something to gain here I need to know so I can claim my reward. The sitting government is made up of goons who mostly were not in Neutral Shoving. The previous government was largely Neutral Shoving. The position that their shifting gov roster makes them not like Neutral Shoving is only as valid as the position that their previous set of gov makes them like Neutral Shoving. Just as NPO was able to enforce the Revenge Doctrine because its political position allowed it to, Neutral Shoving was able to do Shark Week because its position allowed it to, and the current GOONS does not have an equitable position. It doesn't mean they wouldn't, it means they can't. If Sardonic, babyjesus, nippy, Umar, bloodjewel, lamuella, etc etc participated in Neutral Shoving Shark Week, why won't they now if they find themselves in a comparable position? What is different about these goons over those goons that they would not do a Shark Week? Both sets hold the same disdain for Digiterran culture in general. How much experience with new GOONS does a person need before they can say whether or not they're dicks to people who appraoch them diplomatically? If I goet kickbanned from their IRC channel by their banned player second-in-command for asking if a perticular member is online at a moment in time so we might trade together, am I now qualified to say that, yes, they are dicks? If GOONS aids a nuke rogue at war with CoJ twice in a row within a month, now am I qualified to say they're dicks? If I get called a gay slur by GOONS gov over my choice of theme, does that qualify me? Who is the judge of how much many times a person has to get burned by GOONS before they can accurately judge their character? You? Clearly, our experience with the same group of people over the same time period is very different. Negligence/Sadism has--by SoE's hand, not their own--been rid of the group of people that were truly harmful and dangerous in the last days of Neutral Shoving. In that respect they are different. Negligence/Sadism does not yet have the power of Neutral Shoving, so they are on a different part of the curve. Negligence/Sadism's core sense of humor and culture, though, is the same. Their High War Adjudicator is the same. Their raiding is the same. Their attitude about pubbies is the same. [/quote] So what you're saying is "GOONS is in some ways different from, and in some ways similar to Neutral Shoving". Nice work, Sherlock. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll let people that actually matter decide what they think the relevant similarities are, and you can get back to investigating the connection between water and ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1282760746' post='2431043'] Trying to paint them in a negative light by bringing up their past while not having enough experience with both sets to properly judge, in essence speaking without enough knowledge. Also not only was I referring the difference to government as an indication to how different they are, but how they themselves have conducted themselves since their resurrection. I also find it amusing that a person will only be judged on how they governed in the past, I mean I myself was a huge tech raider in the past but I now govern in a most different matter don't I? Similarly the ones you've listed have been showing a very calm demeanor whenever I've seen them post except in rare instances when challenged by people with no other apparent agenda than to just smear them. And yes it seems our experience with them is different, but I'd venture to say that most people's experience with them is most likely not on the same level as the one with you. I know personally I'm on opposite sides of the spectrum with them on raiding and that would naturally make us "enemies" but whenever we've had to interact with them on an issue they have been more than reasonable and always were willing to work with us and talk things out. Perhaps they just don't like you, and the reasons for that I can't be sure of exactly but the fact that they can still get along with people opposite them on certain stances such as myself and even get a treaty with an alliance labeled by many as "moralist" in VE surely means they're not that way to everyone else as they are with you and are probably a reasonable alliance to talk to whom are willing to agree to disagree and work things out for the better. [/quote] VE is not now, nor have they for a very long time (if ever) been, a moralist alliance. Though you are correct that may people regard them as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282761410' post='2431065'] VE is not now, nor have they for a very long time (if ever) been, a moralist alliance. Though you are correct that may people regard them as such. [/quote] Thanks for agreeing with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1282761478' post='2431066'] Thanks for agreeing with me. [/quote] Not sure if being facetious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louisa Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 Well this was a strangely developing thread. Congratulations on your treaty, VE-GOONS, I wish you the very best. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282759626' post='2431020'] Their High War Adjudicator is the same. [/quote] Shame on you for making me believe that ToeCutter was back Also every body stop fighting, we all know I am the only real goon around here, look I even took out the top echelon all on my own back in my younger days: [img]http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r7/Louisa00/GOONS/triumf.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziperia Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='D34th' timestamp='1282620896' post='2428726'] Fixed for you, because this is what optional treaties means. [/quote] That really isn't what they mean, unless you are a coward... And as that is what it means to you.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakome Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 I think schatt is just bitter because of the whole USSR thing. Kind of funny actually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leprecon Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) No VE announcement is complete without Schattenmann calling the VE a bunch of cowards and spineless ... gelatinous blobs? I could try to counter your arguments, or I could just take a note from GOONS [size="1"](with whom we just signed an eternal MDAP which says we will always declare aggressive wars on kittens, judging from the thread)[/size] and try to enjoy the spectacle. Edit: I forgot to mention that the VE changes its opinion on everything all the time. Also, the VE doesn't change its opinion all the time. Edited August 25, 2010 by leprecon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1282761410' post='2431065'] VE is not now, nor have they for a very long time (if ever) been, a moralist alliance. Though you are correct that may people regard them as such. [/quote] We do what we feel is 'right' and try to look at things from a pragmatic prism. Many times that is referred to as 'moralism' because our viewpoints happen to be along those same lines, but we do not go out of our way to force people in CN to see things through a more moral light. The term 'moralist' in CN is not a codified one, either. Your definition of a moralist alliance may be far different than another's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrage Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 VE was and forever will be evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='Ziperia' timestamp='1282766084' post='2431131'] That really isn't what they mean, unless you are a coward... And as that is what it means to you.. [/quote] This is the best you can do? Try harder next time. [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1282758446' post='2431009'] And Fallen Fool, D34th, and Ha I'm sure both agree that this is a different GOONS than the one in the past which declared war on an alliance by a whim, hosted shark week, and were dicks a lot to alliances whom they disagreed with even when they were approached diplomatically. While of course they still enjoy tech raiding and to say they are no different than the old GOONS is almost completely off base and the fact that you're trying to push the claim without long enough experience with them is just reaping of opportunism. [/quote] Of course the new GOONS doesn't hosted shark week and are more diplomatic than the old one, but as I and many said in this thread that's because they neither are suicides or have the power to do so(yet). The old GOONS doesn't hosted shark week just one year after they came to cyberverse too, they did it when they were among the #3 more powerful alliances of the treaty web. Of course the new GOONS is more careful and less worse then the old one, but not less worse enough for me. Will the new GOONS repeat the same mistakes of the old one? I don't think so, since I dislike them but don't think they are dumb, will the new GOONS make some new brand dick moves? Of course they will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktarthan Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='D34th' timestamp='1282773233' post='2431205'] Of course the new GOONS doesn't hosted shark week and are more diplomatic than the old one, but as I and many said in this thread that's because they neither are suicides or have the power to do so(yet). The old GOONS doesn't hosted shark week just one year after they came to cyberverse too, they did it when they were among the #3 more powerful alliances of the treaty web. Of course the new GOONS is more careful and less worse then the old one, but not less worse enough for me. Will the new GOONS repeat the same mistakes of the old one? I don't think so, since I dislike them but don't think they are dumb, will the new GOONS make some new brand dick moves? Of course they will. [/quote] So what I gather, correct me if I am wrong, is that you agree that this GOONS is nicer, more diplomatic, and not likely to commit the same mistakes as Neutral Shoving? I guess I'm just wondering what else we need to do to be considered something different? I also don't think it's particularly fair to be held accountable for actions that we haven't even committed yet. How about stick to disliking us for things that we actually have done; I'm sure there's more than enough ammo. (And don't worry, if we get big and powerful and do all sorts of terrible things, you can still say "I told you so!" ) edit: clarification~ Edited August 25, 2010 by ktarthan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1282775711' post='2431231'] So what I gather, correct me if I am wrong, is that you agree that this GOONS is nicer, more diplomatic, and not likely to commit the same mistakes as Neutral Shoving? I guess I'm just wondering what else we need to do to be considered something different? I also don't think it's particularly fair to be held accountable for actions that we haven't even committed yet. How about stick to disliking us for things that we actually have done; I'm sure there's more than enough ammo. (And don't worry, when we get big and powerful and do all sorts of terrible things, you can still say "I told you so!" ) [/quote] I don't think that GOONS is nicer just less worse what is different, at least for me, but I agree that you're more diplomatic, well Sardonic is more diplomatic than the old leadership, what is a smart thing to do otherwise you could have a short life in cyberverse. Also I agree that's enough ammo to dislike the new GOONS: Pro Piracy Act, Hiring raids, raiding alliances, EoG list(PZI), humiliating enemies asking them to write essays... See? May be less worse then old GOONS but still full of stupid moves nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted August 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 [quote name='D34th' timestamp='1282776678' post='2431243'] EoG list(PZI) [/quote] The EoG list is not a PZI list, the inhabitants have more than ample opportunities to get off of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iserlohn Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 GOONS: Not Nicer, Just Less Worse. I think we got a new motto, guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1282777443' post='2431249'] The EoG list is not a PZI list, the inhabitants have more than ample opportunities to get off of it. [/quote] Yeah, all the EoG need to do is fulfill your requirements, one of them is the humiliating essays. It's a good motto Iserlohn, but you need to pay me royalties if want to use that. Edited August 25, 2010 by D34th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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