Joint VE/GOONS Announcement

[Sardonic]

You guys do know that they just have to join a valid alliance (or if they are a micro, get a protectorate) for us to stop raiding them, right? The mercy board is not the only way to secure peace from raids (it is just the most entertaining one).

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1282877265' post='2432349']
BlkAK47_002, you obviously didn't grasp what I wrote so I'll ask you to read it again since you missed the point entirely.

RV, I'm not comparing the raiding policies of the two per se, just that the entire concept of NSO being an evil alliance hilariously falls apart when you object to simple tech raiding. Peace is a lie etc.
[/quote]
Oh I got the point. Perhaps you should've worded it better. And being an ex-starwars fan I know the Sith Philosophy very well and it varies from situation to situation. By raiding relativley newer players saying that they should've found themselves an alliance drives them away from the game and costs other alliances potential recruits (including the sith). Therefore they are completley in character by opposing your raiding policy.

Edited August 27, 2010 by BlkAK47_002

[Biazt]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1282878168' post='2432360']
Oh I got the point. Perhaps you should've worded it better. And being an ex-starwars fan I know the Sith Philosophy very well and it varies from situation to situation. By raiding relativley newer players saying that they should've found themselves an alliance drives them away from the game and costs other alliances potential recruits (including the sith). Therefore they are completley in character by opposing your raiding policy.
[/quote]
I haven't seen any objections thus far that have been for those reasons. Most of them are something along the lines of "bullying" and comparing us to old GOONS who were considered "evil", which brings us back to the failed Sith concept and the irony contained therein.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Biazt

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1282878433' post='2432363']
I haven't seen any objections thus far that have been for those reasons. Most of them are something along the lines of "bullying" and comparing us to old GOONS who were considered "evil", which brings us back to the failed Sith concept and the irony contained therein.
[/quote]
Your "Irony" is a narrow visioned interpretation of the first line of their motto. Sorta falls short of Irony.

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1282878433' post='2432363']
I haven't seen any objections thus far that have been for those reasons.
[/quote]
I loled

Edited August 27, 2010 by BlkAK47_002

[Biazt]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1282878970' post='2432368']
Your "Irony" is a narrow visioned interpretation of the first line of their motto. Sorta falls short of Irony.
[/quote]
That's a pretty hilarious dodge.

I forget that the Sith never bully anyone and have never been considered evil or immoral. Silly me, I just need a broader interpretation of the entire concept of the Sith.

(The rolleyes is for sarcasm you see)

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1282878970' post='2432368']
I loled
[/quote]
Such rich literature.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Biazt

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1282879143' post='2432372']
That's a pretty hilarious dodge.

I forget that the Sith never bully anyone and have never been considered evil or immoral. Silly me, I just need a broader interpretation of the entire concept of the Sith.

(The rolleyes is for sarcasm you see)


Such rich literature.
[/quote]
Ah, The good old "You missed my point" Followed by the dodging accusation even when the person addresses your points directly.

It seems you're running out of material so it looks like im done here.

Thanks for playing.

Edited August 27, 2010 by BlkAK47_002

[Biazt]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1282879532' post='2432376']
Ah, The good old "You missed my point" Followed by the dodging accusation even when the person addresses your points directly.

It seems you're running out of material so it looks like im done here.

Thanks for playing.
[/quote]
Once again it seems you've missed the point. Your reply was concerned with some narrow interpretation of the first line of the Sith motto, when I was referencing the entire concept of the Sith; not just a single line in their motto. In any case, simply saying "that's a narrow interpretation" isn't an argument.

Fake edit: I loled

Edited August 27, 2010 by Biazt

[Dr Beefstupid]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282872853' post='2432251']
[color="#0000FF"]The fact of the matter remains that people should not have to struggle to get you to end a tech raid. It is quite telling of your alliance's character that you consider the alternative to humiliating oneself to end a war which GOONS started is reparations. Your alliance deserves to burn, and I eagerly await the day you disband again.[/color]
[/quote]

That instance we mentioned was with an EoG. It was not a tech raid.

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1282876937' post='2432340']
You mean like.....fighting back? possibly.....winning?
[/quote]
No, but thank you for your ridiculous allegation. That's very mature on your part. It takes quite a lot to be considered an EoG. In fact, in response to this remark, I tried to look over our list of EoGs and at first couldn't find it, then when I did, I found that it hadn't been maintained in a very long time. That's how much of a non-issue it is and how rarely someone achieves EoG status.

At this time, we have only one official EoG, who is a long-time rogue that is sanctioned on almost every colour. There has been discussion about peacing with him but the rogue in question is not interested in peace and I'm sure would turn it down even if we offered it to him white.

Let me give you a little bit of background on this particular EoG.

He aided a rogue that was engaged in guerrilla tactics against our new inexperienced nations, and hid behind the protection of a small alliance, and ultimately provoked a war between us. Later on, the EoG in question approached us and said he wanted peace. We made him write a letter, poking fun at a comedian, which he agreed to happily and he got peace.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282876977' post='2432341']
[color="#0000FF"]
Dearest Sir or Madame,

I'm pretty sure GOONS would be happy to quickly re-declare on the target, and considering no one will accept a nation currently being raiding, their options are limited. I know your alliance well enough to know that you would never let them off.[/color][/quote]

That is pure unfiltered crap. I have never in my entire experience within GOONS ever seen a raider re-declare on the target. You apparently know our alliance very poorly. For one who claims he is never wrong, this is a massively incorrect statement.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' timestamp='1282880553' post='2432399']
That is pure unfiltered crap. I have never in my entire experience within GOONS ever seen a raider re-declare on the target. You apparently know our alliance very poorly. For one who claims he is never wrong, this is a massively incorrect statement.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Dear Gentlemen, Scholars, and Gentle Persons of Ill Repute,

I am sure if I bothered to check I could find a few victims being re-declared on. After all, why stop? It is just a "tech raid," so you could find a way to spin any unjust PZI into something ignorable. I'm onto you.

You sunk my battleship,
Rebel Virginia[/color]

[Bill Wallace]

More blue text please. It only solidifies the righteousness of this treaty.

Oh and it makes me laugh.

[Dr Beefstupid]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1282881546' post='2432425']
[color="#0000FF"]Dear Gentlemen, Scholars, and Gentle Persons of Ill Repute,

I am sure if I bothered to check I could find a few victims being re-declared on.[/color][/quote]

It's possible that you can find the odd instance if you're really looking. I said that I've never actually seen it. If you can find a trend or precedence I would be very surprised.

[quote][color="#0000FF"]After all, why stop?[/color]
[/quote]

Because there's plenty of fish in the sea. Why keep attacking the same target? Best to leave well enough alone and move on to someone else.

[quote][color="#0000FF"]It is just a "tech raid," so you could find a way to spin any unjust PZI into something ignorable. I'm onto you.[/color]
[/quote]

We don't PZI and no matter how many times you throw the term around it won't ever become any more valid of an assertion, so quit wasting keystrokes.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1282869609' post='2432184']
VE, we should've tricked you guys into a drinking game based off how many pages of discussion this ODP would create. Then you'd all pass out and we could take over.
[/quote]

You wish. We'd own your asses. I might not drink, but we've got Impero and Smooth over here. You don't stand a chance.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282877930' post='2432356']
You obviously didn't grasp what RV wrote so I'll ask you to read it again since you missed the point entirely. The discussion is about the mannerism in which GOONS carries out the act. Not the act itself.
[/quote]Are you trying to say, that Sith considers harmless mental exercise, this exercise of creative behaviour, to be the very definition of evil?

[Daikos]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1282876678' post='2432337']
The irony of NSO complaining about evil tech raiding will never get old.
[/quote]


New [s]Sith[/s] Moralist Order

You sunk my scrabbleship

Edited August 27, 2010 by Daikos

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1282877265' post='2432349']
BlkAK47_002, you obviously didn't grasp what I wrote so I'll ask you to read it again since you missed the point entirely.

RV, I'm not comparing the raiding policies of the two per se, just that the entire concept of NSO being an evil alliance hilariously falls apart when you object to simple tech raiding. Peace is a lie etc.
[/quote]

We permit tech raiding, so your argument is wrong. And yes, tech raiding is so evil.

But yeah, this is not a very important treaty. ODPs are worthless.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Jrenster

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1282908318' post='2432692']
Are you trying to say, that Sith considers harmless mental exercise, this exercise of creative behaviour, to be the very definition of evil?
[/quote]

No one brought up 'evil' till Biazt.

We don't believe in humiliating our 'prey' (since that's all they've turned their raidees into with their methods) in order for them to get peace. And that !@#$%^&* line up there somewhere? It's THEIR fault for not being in an alliance? Perhaps they don't have an interest or knowledge in this aspect of the game? That's not their fault. They have to PROVE they care about their nation in order to gain peace from GOONS? WTF. Who the hell gave them the power to decide whether or not someone cares about their nation? I don't give two rats ass about my nation. It's a forced requirement to play the game and gain access to the aspects I DO enjoy. So because I don't care, if I should end up unaligned and caught by them, then I don't deserve peace even tho I was raided for minding my own business? I think not.

Don't worry Solaris - afterall, I am delusional, aren't I? I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm probably making half of that up. Right?

Edited August 27, 2010 by Rayvon

[Bergerland]

The point is, if you can't take the 5-10 minutes to write something/draw something or join an alliance you can't care about your nation all that much. Therefore, if you don't care about your nation the people who do care about theirs have every right to take the resources you're not using and put them to better use.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1282925014' post='2432840']
Therefore, if you don't care about your nation the people who do care about theirs have every right to take the resources you're not using and put them to better use.
[/quote]

Sorry but that is the worst concept I have ever heard of.

Kinda like saying you don't use a item as much as me, so then I am justified in stealing from you. No logic in that no matter which way you look from it.

[Bergerland]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1282925443' post='2432843']
Sorry but that is the worst concept I have ever heard of.

Kinda like saying you don't use a item as much as me, so then I am justified in stealing from you. No logic in that no matter which way you look from it.
[/quote]

It's perfectly logical. You just don't agree with it.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Bergerland

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1282925014' post='2432840']
The point is, if you can't take the 5-10 minutes to write something/draw something or join an alliance you can't care about your nation all that much. Therefore, if you don't care about your nation the people who do care about theirs have every right to take the resources you're not using and put them to better use.
[/quote]

And this here, is EXACTLY the mentality starting to spread through Viridia that drove me away. Congrats Impero. You've done what you always sought out to do. Like every discussion/disagreement we ever had over VE's future from our seats in Ordo ... o/


This treaty truly is deserved. Best of luck to both of you. You're made for each other.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1282925882' post='2432849']
It's perfectly logical. You just don't agree with it.
[/quote]


Please provide how that is logical? That a persons possession they do not use, gives the right for someone else to take it, mainly by force.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1282917629' post='2432762']Don't worry Solaris - afterall, I am delusional, aren't I?[/quote]We all have misperceptions on some issues, and more important than our current levels of knowledge, is our ability to incorporate more data into our way of perceiving the world, the reality. I wouldn't regard your views to be consistently delusional, or that your way of processing information is delusional by design, eventhough we don't see every subject eye to eye. After all, we are all limited by the physical realities the universe is imposing on our brains, and as such, we remain imperfect beings, always with a potential to further develop, our abilities to seek truth from facts.

[quote]I don't know what I'm talking about.[/quote]Perhaps you do, perhaps you don't, but your implication that a raided nation has to necessarily walk the path of mercy board, in order to get peace, seems certainly misplaced.

[quote]I'm probably making half of that up. Right?[/quote]False associations, and incorrect conclusions, don't necessarily mean you're malovelently making stuff up, so I wouldn't be comfortable with making such a claim.



Tech raiding is tech raiding. I don't agree with the practice on general principle, but I recognize the phenomena can have a positive impact on the world. For example, if my dear ally Sethb would had not been raided, his nation would had propably gone away in the atmosphere of apathy and boredom. There are also, of course, those that cannot adapt to a world where raids happen, and losing those from the world can be a loss - but it seems to be a loss the world is capable of living with.

I also think that there are no considerable degree of moral differences between the various raiding cultures there are. It's essentially all the same. All raiding, is the stronger imposing their will on the weaker, and if one alliance offers people a way to express their creativity in the process, as one of the ways to get peace, I don't see how that is something that should be universally opposed.

edit: to clarify, I don't see how GOONS' raiding culture should be any more universally opposed, than all other raiding in comparison. People who oppose to all raiding are morally consistent, and their view of raiding's universal opposability is certainly valid and understandable.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Solaris

[Bergerland]

[quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1282926328' post='2432859']
Please provide how that is logical? That a persons possession they do not use, gives the right for someone else to take it, mainly by force.
[/quote]

If one nation ruler is so neglectful of their nation that they can't take the time to perform a simple task, then obviously another nation ruler who cares enough to take the time to raid is more deserving of those resources. And again, it's a simple process to prove the opposite.

Your metaphor is skewd. We're not comparing people, we're comparing the leaders of nations. If you can't prove you care about your nation enough to stop the raid then you've proved your incompetence as a ruler and the resources would be at better use by a ruler who is willing to use those resources to better their nation.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1282927538' post='2432875']
If one nation ruler is so neglectful of their nation that they can't take the time to perform a simple task, then obviously another nation ruler who cares enough to take the time to raid is more deserving of those resources. And again, it's a simple process to prove the opposite.

Your metaphor is skewd. We're not comparing people, we're comparing the leaders of nations. If you can't prove you care about your nation enough to stop the raid then you've proved your incompetence as a ruler and the resources would be at better use by a ruler who is willing to use those resources to better their nation.
[/quote]

What you are basically doing is legalizing theft, their nation is their possession. They can do whatever they want to it and it still remains their possession.

Let me give you a example, my nation is next to yours. I decide not to mine the gold on my land, does this give you the right to march in seize the land and mine it yourself?

[Rayvon]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1282927309' post='2432867']
We all have misperceptions on some issues, and more important than our current levels of knowledge, is our ability to incorporate more data into our way of perceiving the world, the reality. I wouldn't regard your views to be consistently delusional, or that your way of processing information is delusional by design, eventhough we don't see every subject eye to eye. After all, we are all limited by the physical realities the universe is imposing on our brains, and as such, we remain imperfect beings, always with a potential to further develop, our abilities to seek truth from facts.[/quote]
[i]You're entire gov - including yourself personally - have been quite quick to jump at that since December when I left - like YOUR (you personally) announcement thread to the membership after my departure. You can dress it up pretty now all you want, try and dance around the words to still say it while hiding it. That's really a separate subject tho.[/i]


MY implication that they have to walk that path? That's not my implication. That's GOONS, and apparently others within Viridia - looking at the words of Berger ...

My nation is my nation (using 'I' for sake of clarity, tho it applies to any nation deemed 'raidable' by GOONS standards). Regardless of how you perceive my way of running it or how often I spend with it. For you to decide I'm not using my resources well enough and 'take them' - is an even bigger infringement on sovereignty than the reasons for the last war against us.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Rayvon