This Week in History

[Chickenzilla]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1281925104' post='2417327']
Always fun to take a walk down memory lane. That first week was the most fun I've ever had in CN. I've tragically lost all my IRC logs from that era, otherwise I'd be digging through them for some of the better parts.
[/quote]
Even the #ODN logs?

[Moridin]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' timestamp='1281925511' post='2417334']
Even the #ODN logs?
[/quote]

Alas, 'twas the Great Hard Drive Wipe of 2009, in which all the most precious documents in Arafel were lost. Evidently it didn't occur to my government to back anything up first.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote=Doitzel]Move on to where, to what? Those are the obvious questions. On to a world where a man can speak his mind without having to fear for his livelihood. On to a world where honest and frank discussion is treasured rather than trashed. On to a world where basic political opposition is not considered the most damnable of crimes, and where "security" is not held above humanity. On to a world where the future is uncertain but bright, where no single power operates unchecked. On to a world we have sweat blood to forge.[/quote]I don't think a single one of those statements can be applied to the current state of the world.

I hope that those who participated in the Vox movement remember the principles they fought for more than the names of who they fought against.

[Moridin]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281925757' post='2417343']I don't think a single one of those statements can be applied to the current state of the world.

I hope that those who participated in the Vox movement remember the principles they fought for more than the names of who they fought against.[/quote]

Quite an exaggeration. Discussion today is far more open than it was then, and dissenting opinions are more often addressed and debated than shouted down and silenced. There is a lot of room for improvement; the alliances currently in power are just as paranoid about political opposition as the NPO was in 2008, though in fairness they are less likely to act on it without provocation. As for the second part of what you said, that should be self evident, at least in regards to some of us. If we were all still caught up in opposing the NPO, I imagine Schattenmann would not be in Red Dawn, as one example. Though, it should be noted, there are not a great number of us left anyway; out of the original eleven founders, four - Starfox, Doitzel, West of Eden, and King_Srqt - have departed this world entirely, and a few others that I recall from early on - Kassad and Sponge - have disappeared as well. Not all of the rest are terribly involved in world politics anymore either; I, for one, haven't been for half a year.

[The MVP]

Saying ODN got you a good kickban in #polaris.

I remember the, "ODN wishes they had a spine" (You have been kicked by Griswalds[NpO]

And the ever so unforgettable, <Bob_Sanders> did you polar really too stupid to read?

All fun memories. And the logs I gave over to Doitzel about ironchef was also fun, I guess. And that's about it, I know I'm a "traitor" to the cause but I don't leave much sleep over it. Though getting zog no. 1 on the NPO senate was the greatest thing ever. We got nations who weren't even in Vox, heck on the other side, switch to red just to vote zog in to see what would happen.

[Chief Stubbs]

Good ol' Vox Populi.
I miss those days.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281925757' post='2417343']
I don't think a single one of those statements can be applied to the current state of the world.

I hope that those who participated in the Vox movement remember the principles they fought for more than the names of who they fought against.
[/quote]

Please don't be so obnoxious as to tell me what I should remember from my time in Vox. You do not know why I did it and it is incredibly presumptuous of you to pretend you know what I fought for.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Chief Savage Man

[Chunky Monkey]

You forgot me on your list you butte, how could you forget me

This is literally the first time Ive posted since Vox disbanded because everything is so boring now. I miss Vox and I miss the old days. Maybe one day things events will conspire to make the game interesting to me again, but today is not that day.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1281926619' post='2417356']
Quite an exaggeration. Discussion today is far more open than it was then, and dissenting opinions are more often addressed and debated than shouted down and silenced. There is a lot of room for improvement; the alliances currently in power are just as paranoid about political opposition as the NPO was in 2008, though in fairness they are less likely to act on it without provocation. As for the second part of what you said, that should be self evident, at least in regards to some of us. If we were all still caught up in opposing the NPO, I imagine Schattenmann would not be in Red Dawn, as one example. Though, it should be noted, there are not a great number of us left anyway; out of the original eleven founders, four - Starfox, Doitzel, West of Eden, and King_Srqt - have departed this world entirely, and a few others that I recall from early on - Kassad and Sponge - have disappeared as well. Not all of the rest are terribly involved in world politics anymore either; I, for one, haven't been for half a year.
[/quote]I don't know that it's quite the exaggeration. For a time, free speech largely was allowed, but there is strong evidence to suggest that this last pillar of light is vanishing; RoK withdrew a peace agreement largely because they didn't like what NSO was saying about them.

The change Vox brought is rapidly evaporating. I personally have been threatened because of how vocal I am; Granted, I was threatened by officials from \m/, but if I did anything to stand against it, the whole of "Super Grievances" would be on me in no time at all. Those in power are only as good as the lowest and worst people they are willing to back up.

The RoK/NSO scenario also smacks of ignoring diplomacy, such ignorance having been a rallying cry in Karma. That can hardly be classified as the world of "honest and frank" discussion Doitzel dreamed of.

And for weighing security over humanity, massive reparations have been taken from NPO and more recently TOP and IRON, with a stated intent to 'keep them down to protect our security.' TPF and now NSO have been rolled over next to nothing.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281930365' post='2417443']
Please don't be so obnoxious as to tell me what I should remember from my time in Vox. You do not know why I did it and it is incredibly presumptuous of you to pretend you know what I fought for.
[/quote]Yes, because Chief Savage Man is the embodiment of everything Vox stood for

Hint: Not everyone rode the train so that they could run amok across the world, burning and pillaging villages and whatnot, causing havoc at the expense of others all for a good laugh. Some of those folks, just a few of 'em, had ideals they were fighting for. While I disagree with some of the methods, and even disagree that there may have even been a problem, I acknowledge the ideal those people fought for.

Yeah, some people joined on just for political purposes, people who only disliked NPO because they wanted the spot for themselves. But what are you gonna do?

[Rebounder]

I'm glad to have been a part of this worthy movement. It was the most fun I ever had playing the game. I look forward to doing it again someday.

o/ Vox

[Chunky Monkey]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281931715' post='2417478']
Yes, because Chief Savage Man is the embodiment of everything Vox stood for

Hint: Not everyone rode the train so that they could run amok across the world, burning and pillaging villages and whatnot, causing havoc at the expense of others all for a good laugh. Some of those folks, just a few of 'em, had ideals they were fighting for. While I disagree with some of the methods, and even disagree that there may have even been a problem, I acknowledge the ideal those people fought for.

Yeah, some people joined on just for political purposes, people who only disliked NPO because they wanted the spot for themselves. But what are you gonna do?
[/quote]
If you're directing that hint at CSM (I cant tell 100% because you are being vague), Im pretty sure his record as a Vox Senator speaks for itself about his intentions.

[Moridin]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281931159' post='2417465']
I don't know that it's quite the exaggeration. For a time, free speech largely was allowed, but there is strong evidence to suggest that this last pillar of light is vanishing; RoK withdrew a peace agreement largely because they didn't like what NSO was saying about them.

The change Vox brought is rapidly evaporating. I personally have been threatened because of how vocal I am; Granted, I was threatened by officials from \m/, but if I did anything to stand against it, the whole of "Super Grievances" would be on me in no time at all. Those in power are only as good as the lowest and worst people they are willing to back up.

The RoK/NSO scenario also smacks of ignoring diplomacy, such ignorance having been a rallying cry in Karma. That can hardly be classified as the world of "honest and frank" discussion Doitzel dreamed of.[/quote]

First of all, I feel it is my duty to point out the incredible irony of you complaining about your perception that you are no longer able to reap the benefits of a change catalyzed by Vox Populi, an alliance you missed no opportunity to oppose, ridicule, and complain about. Second, while there are certainly some alliances in power and associated with those in power that I dislike intensely and would like nothing more than to see ground into dust, it's a measure of how far we've come that there actually was a peace offer on the table to begin with after such a short time. I could name a number of alliances that would have given quite a lot to have that opportunity. I haven't bothered keeping up with the RoK-NSO war so I am rather ignorant of the details and will have to take your word for it that it was withdrawn due to NSO's antics; such a move is certainly poor form, and it illustrates that we're by no means living in an ideal world.

I suggest in the future you don't try to pretend you were ever sympathetic to our goals; hearing you lament that we aren't living in "the world of honest and frank discussion Doitzel dreamed of" is really quite amusing.

[quote]And for weighing security over humanity, massive reparations have been taken from NPO and more recently TOP and IRON, with a stated intent to 'keep them down to protect our security.' TPF and now NSO have been rolled over next to nothing.
[/quote]

I've never disputed that many of those in power are far too paranoid about their own security; they are satisfied with the status quo and massive reparations are certainly designed to preserve that, ultimately stagnating the political dynamic. Inexplicably, many of the alliances responsible for these massive reparations, such as MK and other C&G alliances, are the ones most vocally complaining about the stagnation.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1281932890' post='2417489']
I suggest in the future you don't try to pretend you were ever sympathetic to our goals; hearing you lament that we aren't living in "the world of honest and frank discussion Doitzel dreamed of" is really quite amusing.
[/quote]You know, I've been missing from the world for quite some time, but it doesn't mean I haven't been watching... And it doesn't mean in the nearly two years of my absence that my views are exactly what they were so long ago.

I recognize the ideals Vox stood for. And a few of the principles I stand for are different. For example, I never again will demand reps in a 'spoils of war' capacity as I did to STA and TDSM8 so very long ago (Should I ever be in a position to do so). I recognize those events as errors. And I have apologized to Tyga and Stumpy for my actions.

Was I vocal against you? Certainly. Only hindsight could reveal that you weren't out to replace the NPO with yourselves, and I opposed your tactics, I opposed the idea that the problem was as great as you made it out to be, and I opposed you for attacking my allies. With hindsight, I realize most of you had ideals, and I can at least respect those ideals for what they were, even if I disagreed, and still disagree, with much else of it all.

As for the other points, I mostly agree, but my point is that we are falling backwards. The standards are falling, they are not standing still and they are certainly not going up. They may be better [i]now[/i] than under Pacifica at it's height (I could never know for sure having never been subjected to anything negative from the NPO), but what about a year from now? Two years from now? Vox changed the world, but it is changing again, back to it's natural tendencies.

[Ashoka the Great]

Dear HeroofTime:

This thread has nothing to do with TPF, RoK or the NSO.

Please go piss on someone else's birthday cake.

Sincerely,

kingzog

[Moridin]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281934286' post='2417515']Was I vocal against you? Certainly. Only hindsight could reveal that you weren't out to replace the NPO with yourselves[/quote]

Are you kidding? Really? A few months along, we were down to maybe thirty or forty members, it would have been quite literally impossible to replace NPO. Even at the height of our membership count, we still didn't even come close to wielding the sort of power necessary to actually become a powerbroker in a post-NPO world.

[quote]As for the other points, I mostly agree, but my point is that we are falling backwards. The standards are falling, they are not standing still and they are certainly not going up. They may be better [i]now[/i] than under Pacifica at it's height (I could never know for sure having never been subjected to anything negative from the NPO), but what about a year from now? Two years from now? Vox changed the world, but it is changing again, back to it's natural tendencies.
[/quote]

The standards haven't changed much since Karma. We're not on a slippery slope downward, we're in stasis and nothing much is going to change anytime soon unless someone in power decides that there's nothing enjoyable about being friends with everybody else in power.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281934471' post='2417519']
Dear HeroofTime:

This thread has nothing to do with TPF, RoK or the NSO.

Please go piss on someone else's birthday cake.

Sincerely,

kingzog
[/quote]Oh come now, I think Moridin and I have been having quite a pleasant discussion.

Though I'm not surprised to hear this coming from an angry old man like yourself. All you do nowadays is try to goad the NPO into war. Perhaps you should go back and re-read my first post in this thread, specifically the second line.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1281934857' post='2417528']
Are you kidding? Really? A few months along, we were down to maybe thirty or forty members, it would have been quite literally impossible to replace NPO. Even at the height of our membership count, we still didn't even come close to wielding the sort of power necessary to actually become a powerbroker in a post-NPO world.[/quote]It's all about political people, and your position. Nearly every individual in Vox was extremely active in politics, insofar as making a scene on the forums goes. Most alliances are composed of 95% 'dead weight' in terms of politics, all the members who just sit there, collecting taxes and paying bills. Nearly every name in Vox was well known, and those who weren't were nonetheless highly active. NPO didn't control this game by being a fat alliance, they did by surrounding themselves with allies, something which Vox was more than capable of doing. It is to your credit that you did not.

[quote]The standards haven't changed much since Karma. We're not on a slippery slope downward, we're in stasis and nothing much is going to change anytime soon unless someone in power decides that there's nothing enjoyable about being friends with everybody else in power.
[/quote]Well, I suppose I naturally spin things to my side, but I still don't see things being in stasis. It might not be as dramatic as I make it sound, but the so-called "SuperGrievances" are getting more brazen by the day. They don't want to strike the first blow. Neither side does. The precedent of massive reparations in this new era means that whoever loses that conflict is going to be paying the victors for many months. So instead they go after easier pickings. And when those easier pickings are on their best behavior, as we have seen, they have to reach really far to get a war. I predict much of the same until NPO gets rolled at least once more, perhaps more than just once.

[Moridin]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281935863' post='2417563']
It's all about political people, and your position. Nearly every individual in Vox was extremely active in politics, insofar as making a scene on the forums goes. Most alliances are composed of 95% 'dead weight' in terms of politics, all the members who just sit there, collecting taxes and paying bills. Nearly every name in Vox was well known, and those who weren't were nonetheless highly active. NPO didn't control this game by being a fat alliance, they did by surrounding themselves with allies, something which Vox was more than capable of doing. It is to your credit that you did not.[/quote]

Actual military strength plays a crucial role in establishing a hegemony. NPO could not have controlled the world if it were comprised merely of their core of Imperial Officers and other higher-ups that actually made all their decisions. In order to bind alliances to your will, you need to be able to guarantee them security in exchange - something the NPO was able to do through their enormous military might (or perceived military might, at least), and something Vox Populi would have been utterly unable to do with thirty-odd nations almost all below ten thousand strength.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281931159' post='2417465']RoK withdrew a peace agreement largely because they didn't like what NSO was saying about them.[/quote]


No ... we didn't.


Carry on.

[Chunky Monkey]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1281936305' post='2417570']
Actual military strength plays a crucial role in establishing a hegemony. NPO could not have controlled the world if it were comprised merely of their core of Imperial Officers and other higher-ups that actually made all their decisions. In order to bind alliances to your will, you need to be able to guarantee them security in exchange - something the NPO was able to do through their enormous military might (or perceived military might, at least), and something Vox Populi would have been utterly unable to do with thirty-odd nations almost all below ten thousand strength.
[/quote]
Some (most?) of us were ZI'd.

edit: Hoo, have some freakin cake

Edited August 16, 2010 by Chunk Monkey

[Mathias]

It's funny; once, to be in Vox Populi, was a death sentence. Now it's a point of pride. I was never Vox Populi's biggest fan, but you guys definitely had an impact in the fight against NPO, and you without a doubt made things interesting.

o/ Vox Populi

[Rebel Virginia]

[color="#0000FF"]It's only been a year? Seems likes it's been longer.[/color]

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Moridin' timestamp='1281936305' post='2417570']
Actual military strength plays a crucial role in establishing a hegemony. NPO could not have controlled the world if it were comprised merely of their core of Imperial Officers and other higher-ups that actually made all their decisions. In order to bind alliances to your will, you need to be able to guarantee them security in exchange - something the NPO was able to do through their enormous military might (or perceived military might, at least), and something Vox Populi would have been utterly unable to do with thirty-odd nations almost all below ten thousand strength.
[/quote]
NPO was hardly 'binding people to their will.' Though that certainly was the Vox line in your day, the idea that NPO is just so evil that they couldn't possibly have any real friends. Their fall wasn't people "breaking free," it was a critical buildup of enemies over time, and it was sparked by totally inept diplomacy. Coupled with a few fat cowards who saw a chance to jump ship and stab NPO in the back in order to get a favorable spot with the new crowd.

And no, it's little to do with individual alliance strength. Back in Ye Olde Days it was, when there were like 15 alliances total in the world. But not in this modern era. It was their web of friends. And Vox certainly could have established a vast network of friends. Again, as I said, it is [i]to your credit[/i] that you did not, and it demonstrates the ideals behind the Vox movement.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1281943431' post='2417706']
[color="#0000FF"]It's only been a year? Seems likes it's been longer.[/color]
[/quote]

Two years, buddy.