Foreign Affairs Dispatch from the New Pacific Order

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282182693' post='2422405']
Besides my own alliance and allies? 1 to 1 now if were keeping it to public support. 7 to 2 if we count pms.
[/quote]

???

Counting PMs would be exactly opposite of what I was getting it. They are [i]private[/i] messages after all. Also I'm not even sure you understood what I said. Are you really trying to claim that there's only one person that's told you, in public, that they think you are doing your alliance a disservice? Heck Ferrozoica Hive told you that "you and yours are trouncing any real chance for reconcilliation or future bridging." Thats two 1 to 2 right there. But then with the positions you've taken, that declaring a high level treaty void after mere hours over a technicality is a sane decision, I really shouldn't expect you to be honest now should I?

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ragashingo

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282183606' post='2422445']
???

Counting PMs would be exactly opposite of what I was getting it. They are [i]private[/i] messages after all. Also I'm not even sure you understood what I said. Are you really trying to claim that there's only one person that's told you, in public, that they think you are doing your alliance a disservice? Heck Ferrozoica Hive told you that "you and yours are trouncing any real chance for reconcilliation or future bridging." Thats two 1 to 2 right there. But then with the positions you've taken, that declaring a high level treaty void after mere hours over a technicality is a sane decision, I really shouldn't expect you to be honest now should I?
[/quote]

You said ratio not number to number Raga.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282183947' post='2422457']
You said ratio not number to number Raga.
[/quote]

Well darn it I did.

My point still stands. I am positive that the vast majority of people paying attention to this situation would prefer you let it drop so the damage you have done can be repaired. Further I charge that you are being intentionally dishonest and vastly inflated the number of individuals who have offered you support both in private and public. You sir are a liar, a cheat, a self admitted weasel, and have no talent whatsoever at supporting your cause. You offend those of us who actually try to create and influence the public's good will and you sure as heck have offended many of your allies. I'd say stop while you're ahead but you've been lapped so many time that you may as well not have started at all.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282184853' post='2422482']
Well darn it I did.

My point still stands. I am positive that the vast majority of people paying attention to this situation would prefer you let it drop so the damage you have done can be repaired. Further I charge that you are being intentionally dishonest and vastly inflated the number of individuals who have offered you support both in private and public. You sir are a liar, a cheat, a self admitted weasel, and have no talent whatsoever at supporting your cause. You offend those of us who actually try to create and influence the public's good will and you sure as heck have offended many of your allies. I'd say stop while you're ahead but you've been lapped so many time that you may as well not have started at all.
[/quote]

If my allies are offended please speak up because none of you have told me anything and apparently Raga knows how you all feel. Thanks.

I think the people who want me to shut up are just those who don't want me to spread what actually happened and wish to keep portraying GATO as a cruel villain. You yourself love NSO and are an ally. It seems to me you're biased and don't like me putting your friends and allies in their place. Good for you for going ad hominem in their defense not that it is at all effective or discredits any of the points I have made. You're better than that Raga. Argue the facts if you want. If I am mistaken then i am mistaken but nothing has shown me otherwise. people's opinions are not going to sway the facts no matter how hurt they are or how much they don't like it.

[rsoxbronco1]

For the record, I'm not offended by a GATO member defending his alliance.

[Co God Ben]

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' timestamp='1282185506' post='2422498']
For the record, I'm not offended by a GATO member defending his alliance.
[/quote]
But he is a total weasel

[Xanaetos]

I believe everyone who is at odds here would do well to take their disagreements into private, as the OWF is generally a poor place to discuss important issues that need to be addressed.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282185230' post='2422491']
If my allies are offended please speak up because none of you have told me anything and apparently Raga knows how you all feel. Thanks[/quote]

Excuse me. I should have said former allies. You've lost and burned bridges with three so far after all.

[quote]
I think the people who want me to shut up are just those who don't want me to spread what actually happened and wish to keep portraying GATO as a cruel villain. You yourself love NSO and are an ally. It seems to me you're biased and don't like me putting your friends and allies in their place. Good for you for going ad hominem in their defense not that it is at all effective or discredits any of the points I have made. You're better than that Raga. Argue the facts if you want. If I am mistaken then i am mistaken but nothing has shown me otherwise. people's opinions are not going to sway the facts no matter how hurt they are or how much they don't like it.
[/quote]

I think you're delusional. Your facts are more or less fine. Your myopic defense of what happened, your harsh accusatory attitude, and your lack of respect to your recently departed allies is not. For Admin's sake moderate your tone and sit down before you cause more damage than you already have.

Also trying to paint me as an NSO shill is laughable. Yes I have a begrudging respect for them. Yes you could even say I'm a very indirect ally (there's no treaty there to support it after all). But I am certainly not going after your for them, or of the NPO as your odd logic would imply. I'm in this for GATO. Just as I have been for nearly as long as our world has existed. When I see something or someone that threatens GATO's prosperity I speak up. Right now that someone is you.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282186723' post='2422524']
Excuse me. I should have said former allies. You've lost and burned bridges with three so far after all.



I think you're delusional. Your facts are more or less fine. Your myopic defense of what happened, your harsh accusatory attitude, and your lack of respect to your recently departed allies is not. For Admin's sake moderate your tone and sit down before you cause more damage than you already have.

Also trying to paint me as an NSO shill is laughable. Yes I have a begrudging respect for them. Yes you could even say I'm a very indirect ally (there's no treaty there to support it after all). But I am certainly not going after your for them, or of the NPO as your odd logic would imply. I'm in this for GATO. Just as I have been for nearly as long as our world has existed. When I see something or someone that threatens GATO's prosperity I speak up. Right now that someone is you.
[/quote]

Where have I ever said Omni was right? I think all I have said is that I wouldn't have done it and I disagree with what he did. My lack of respect for my departed allies is a direct result of their lack of respect for me. I don't care to be allied to NSO or NPO anymore. They've ruined it with their own disrespect. So don't mind if what I say has little to do with gaining back their love.

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282186723' post='2422524']
Excuse me. I should have said former allies. You've lost and burned bridges with three so far after all.
[/quote]
NSO, ICAN, and NPO aren't the worst bridges to burn tbh.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' timestamp='1282189061' post='2422569']
NSO, ICAN, and NPO aren't the worst bridges to burn tbh.
[/quote]

I don't really see how burning bridges can ever be a good practice. Especially for an alliance with the long stretches of political loneliness that GATO has historically seen. And while I can see why being allied to NSO might not be a popular thing and I don't know much about ICAN, I'm really not sure why you would think being allied to the NPO is a bad move. I mean sure they were the big bad some time ago but what have they done recently to cause anyone to dislike them?

[magicninja]

For the record these opinions of Cortath's approach are my own. I hold no position in GATO government. If anyone takes my word as GATO's word then I am flattered you think I count but you are mistaken.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282182797' post='2422410']
I have no problem with NPO canceling. I took exception to the way Cortath approached us. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]

And the publicizing of private communications is meant to do... what? Make GATO and/or yourself look better? Elicit a public apology? Humiliate Pacifica? I don't get the aim here. As in the GATO cancellation thread, you're coming across as overly aggressive and hurting both yourself and your alliance in the process.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282193660' post='2422694']
For the record these opinions of Cortath's approach are my own. I hold no position in GATO government. If anyone takes my word as GATO's word then I am flattered you think I count but you are mistaken.
[/quote]

That's legalistic and silly. You're becoming the public face of GATO pretty damned fast whether you like it or not.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ferrozoica Hive

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282189478' post='2422581']
...what have they done recently to cause anyone to dislike them?
[/quote]
Stayed alive.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1282181800' post='2422373']
That's certainly possible, though a little cynical. I don't think there's any real credibility, considering the past relations between Pacifica and GATO, that you'd end up seeing something on the level of a mandatory defensive agreement. I'd rank this as likely as Pacifica and the IAA buddying up.
[/quote]

iirc Pacifica actually asked GATO for an MDoAP, and most of them actually wanted to sign, but Omni knocked some sense into them and said that GATO's closest allies (ODN and IAA) would probably cancel on them if they did so. If you just read the GATO-NPO embassy on the GATO boards, it's obvious that GATO held genuine affection for NPO, rightly or wrongly.

It wouldn't be the first time Pacifica has signed a high level treaty with a former enemy, either. Legion springs to mind. An example dear to many ODN members' hearts, I might add.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282181915' post='2422377']
Far more? So what, two people? Maybe three? I know how this game is played and how the numbers of nameless people agreeing with you in private is easily inflated. So lets do it this way. Whats the ratio of [i]actual people[/i] supporting you in public vs. those that think you'd best service your alliance by being locked far away from the public eye?
[/quote]

Well, I could go through this announcement and count every single post if you like but I don't really think that's necessary. Suffice to say that GATO's allies have supported her, and ex-Hegemony alliances like NPO (and assorted tag-alongs) have not. GATO's been through a rough time lately in terms of PR because of their cancellation on NSO (deservedly so, in fact) but I wouldn't say that NPO's cancellation on GATO has changed my view of GATO one bit. GATO *has* actually seen significant support in this thread.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282184853' post='2422482']
Well darn it I did.

My point still stands. I am positive that the vast majority of people paying attention to this situation would prefer you let it drop so the damage you have done can be repaired. Further I charge that you are being intentionally dishonest and vastly inflated the number of individuals who have offered you support both in private and public. You sir are a liar, a cheat, a self admitted weasel, and have no talent whatsoever at supporting your cause. You offend those of us who actually try to create and influence the public's good will and you sure as heck have offended many of your allies. I'd say stop while you're ahead but you've been lapped so many time that you may as well not have started at all.
[/quote]

Because taking pride in one's alliance, and defending your government's actions, is such a bad thing?

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' timestamp='1282185506' post='2422498']
For the record, I'm not offended by a GATO member defending his alliance.
[/quote]

I'll second that.

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1282189478' post='2422581']
I don't really see how burning bridges can ever be a good practice. Especially for an alliance with the long stretches of political loneliness that GATO has historically seen. And while I can see why being allied to NSO might not be a popular thing and I don't know much about ICAN, I'm really not sure why you would think being allied to the NPO is a bad move. I mean sure they were the big bad some time ago but what have they done recently to cause anyone to dislike them?
[/quote]

Well it does mean GATO won't be caught in a treaty conflict in the future. Personally, I wouldn't want treaties with Pacifica or the Sith either.

Oh, and I can tell you that GATO will never be politically lonely again, as long as we're around.

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1282195916' post='2422749']
That's legalistic and silly. You're becoming the public face of GATO pretty damned fast whether you like it or not.
[/quote]

I don't think it's legalistic or silly. He's simply pointing out that he doesn't speak for his alliance in any official capacity.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Ferrozoica Hive' timestamp='1282195916' post='2422749']
And the publicizing of private communications is meant to do... what? Make GATO and/or yourself look better? Elicit a public apology? Humiliate Pacifica? I don't get the aim here. As in the GATO cancellation thread, you're coming across as overly aggressive and hurting both yourself and your alliance in the process.



That's legalistic and silly. You're becoming the public face of GATO pretty damned fast whether you like it or not.
[/quote]

Nah, I just call them like I see them. I don't expect anything.

If the loudest member of an alliance gets to be the leader then a lot of alliances get new leaders. I want a list by Friday so I know who is the go to guy.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282188142' post='2422548']
[b]Where have I ever said Omni was right?[/b] I think all I have said is that I wouldn't have done it and I disagree with what he did. My lack of respect for my departed allies is a direct result of their lack of respect for me. I don't care to be allied to NSO or NPO anymore. They've ruined it with their own disrespect. So don't mind if what I say has little to do with gaining back their love.
[/quote]
Several times you have said that very thing.

Mind giving me a moment while I look it up?

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1282199549' post='2422811']
Several times you have said that very thing.

Mind giving me a moment while I look it up?
[/quote]

Sure I think you'll find me mostly saying I wouldn't have done it and that I don't agree that it needed to be done.

Edit: I guess I've also said Omni had the authority and the legal wording in the treaty but that isn't saying he was right to do it just that he could if he wanted to.

Edited August 19, 2010 by magicninja

[TehChron]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282198138' post='2422789']


Oh, and I can tell you that GATO will never be politically lonely again, as long as we're around.

[/quote]
I don't think the issue at hand has ever been GATO being the forced loner, but the fact that GATO's government has gone far out of it's way to imply that they will be leaving you holding the bag when things come to a head.

I think that's a stigma you can understand the pain of, at least, and as an alliance that has overcome it, I hope you can appreciate just how much it says about an alliance that has taken that route when they were never even at risk in the first place.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Chron

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1282199741' post='2422818']
I don't think the issue at hand has ever been GATO being the forced loner, but the fact that GATO's government has gone far out of it's way to imply that they will be leaving you holding the bag when things come to a head.

I think that's a stigma you can understand the pain of, at least, and as an alliance that has overcome it, I hope you can appreciate just how much it says about an alliance that has taken that route when they were never even at risk in the first place.
[/quote]

You chose to hold the bag on your own if you remember. If you are referring to our charter saying we can only defend you if you are in the right everyone is already well aware or should be at least. It may cost us potential treaties but it's a fair trade off for knowing we won't purposely back someone who is doing wrong.

Edited August 19, 2010 by magicninja

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1282199741' post='2422818']
I don't think the issue at hand has ever been GATO being the forced loner, but the fact that GATO's government has gone far out of it's way to imply that they will be leaving you holding the bag when things come to a head.

I think that's a stigma you can understand the pain of, at least, and as an alliance that has overcome it, I hope you can appreciate just how much it says about an alliance that has taken that route when they were never even at risk in the first place.
[/quote]

tbh GATO should've cancelled their treaty with you months ago (or better yet, not signed it in the first place.) It simply created treaty conflicts. While I'm disappointed in GATO's actions, I'd certainly never support a cancellation with them over this, and I doubt IAA would either. They aren't anywhere near the pariah that ODN was post war of the coalition.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Kalasin

[TehChron]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1282200198' post='2422830']
tbh GATO should've cancelled their treaty with you months ago (or better yet, not signed it in the first place.) It simply created treaty conflicts. While I'm disappointed in GATO's actions, I'd certainly never support a cancellation with them over this, and I doubt IAA would either. They aren't anywhere near the pariah that ODN was post war of the coalition.
[/quote]
Im not endorsing mass cancellations with GATO, as an alliance they don't deserve that.

But I should hope as a treaty partner you're going to go out of your way to make sure they don't pull the same stunt they pulled on us...with you.

[quote]You chose to hold the bag on your own if you remember. If you are referring to our charter saying we can only defend you if you are in the right everyone is already well aware or should be at least. It may cost us potential treaties but it's a fair trade off for knowing we won't purposely back someone who is doing wrong.[/quote]No, I was referring to the part where your alliance government elected to cut and run when it wasn't even remotely necessary under any interpretation of the facts.

That's honestly pretty telling, where you come out and admit that you won't side with an alliance at war unless you think they aren't "doing wrong". Well...I guess that says you hold a very different opinion than a lot of folks to whom you're currently treatied with on that portion of the treaty web.

Heh. Kind of amazing you'd come out and admit that your alliance's loyalty to it's allies is only conditional. Well, not too surprising.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1282200978' post='2422847']
Im not endorsing mass cancellations with GATO, as an alliance they don't deserve that.

But I should hope as a treaty partner you're going to go out of your way to make sure they don't pull the same stunt they pulled on us...with you.

No, I was referring to the part where your alliance government elected to cut and run when it wasn't even remotely necessary under any interpretation of the facts.

That's honestly pretty telling, where you come out and admit that you won't side with an alliance at war unless you think they aren't "doing wrong". Well...I guess that says you hold a very different opinion than a lot of folks to whom you're currently treatied with on that portion of the treaty web.

Heh. Kind of amazing you'd come out and admit that your alliance's loyalty to it's allies is only conditional. Well, not too surprising.
[/quote]

Everyone knows Chron. If they had a problem with it they'd cancel or would have never signed in the first place. What is so wrong with wanting to only fight on the side that your morals dictate as right or not fighting for something you feel is wrong? Is that so bad? I think most people call that integrity.

Also I found you a post where I said the cancellation was brilliant: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90386&view=findpost&p=2411870 I only said that because it was right after you all had attacked me and I felt that the cancellation was warranted on that action. I've never said Omni should've done the things he did only that he could if he wanted to. You know that.

Edited August 19, 2010 by magicninja

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1282161258' post='2421893']
Unless I'm missing it no-one's come out and stated what the reason is but I think we can all see it has to do with strategic positioning.
[/quote]
GATO cancelled on NSO because NSO didn't inform GATO they were about to be attacked within hours of receiving that information.

Now then, GATO and NPO had a PIAT, which generally go to promote the transfer of critical intelligence. GATO knew that NPO's MDP partner was about to be attacked, and failed to tell NPO per their PIAT that their MDP partner was in danger within hours of receiving that information.

Connect the dots

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282201219' post='2422853']
Everyone knows Chron. If they had a problem with it they'd cancel or would have never signed in the first place. What is so wrong with wanting to only fight on the side that your morals dictate as right or not fighting for something you feel is wrong? Is that so bad? I think most people call that integrity.

Also I found you a post where I said the cancellation was brilliant: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90386&view=findpost&p=2411870 I only said that because it was right after you all had attacked me and I felt that the cancellation was warranted on that action. I've never said Omni should've done the things he did only that he could if he wanted to. You know that.
[/quote]
And I profusely apologized for that, as did several others involved in that chat. Now then, you continue to defend it after having already made that point clear on your part. You are, the one, after all, who claimed you hadn't.

I just think it's funny that here you are backpedaling, while using hurt feelings to paint yourself as the martyr as an excuse for you actually lying about what you've been saying thus far:

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282165141' post='2421979']
Was moving to cancel a mistake in the first place? I wouldn't have done it. I would've been hurt you didn't tell us right away that there was a problem and technically that is a violation of the treaty. Unfortunately Omni apparently has high standards and we elected him to make that decision.
[/quote]
You don't say his decision is wrong, and then endorse the fact he made that decision, while also justifying it.

Sounds like you approve of it here.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281681297' post='2414077']
Some may be of the opinion that Omni's standards are too high. However opinion at this point is irrelevant. All he needed to do was show the timeline of Heft's knowledge to when we informed and indicate it was not up to his standard.


Omni's opinion has been stated many times that he did not feel the communication was up to his standards as executor of GATO's treaty with NSO. That is not really a question at this point.

[/quote]
And here you also justify the decision, while also stating that it is utterly immutable, regardless of whether or not anyone disagrees. Even if, say, Congress were to decide to change their opinion on it, or do any other legalistic backpedaling, Omni's word is law. Justification.[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281647924' post='2413242']
That's your opinion and I thought this was an over night to the next afternoon thing as in no one said anything for 12 hours or more. Heft could have said something that night or you know not even decide to play games with Hoo in the first place. You guys think it's unreasonable to expect that and apparently Omni believes it's a reasonable expectation. Just opinions. [b]Bottom line is Omni believes expectations weren't met regardless of your excuses and had enough logs to justify it to congress.[/b]
[/quote]
Aggressively dismissing our perspective while stating that Omniscientone's presentation was "enough". You are aggressively justifying Omniscientone's purported (and inaccurate) portrayal of events, while also stating that we (the NSO) are the ones in the wrong. Justification of the decision, while outright stating that the dissenting opinion is in the wrong.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281585102' post='2412157']
After you started giving me !@#$ I figured we made the right move. Now I am perfectly happy with the cancellation.
[/quote]
So yes, you've been defending Omni's decision, and yes, you've said it was the correct move. You can't really get away with saying otherwise at this point, because it's pretty damn obvious where you stand.

But please, keep on with the holier-than-thou act, your hypocrisy is already laid bare to all who bear witness to it.

[quote] I think most people call that integrity. [/quote]Ha.

Integrity's something that's proven with actions, not words.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Chron