In Response to Recent Drama

[GulagArchipelago]

Heck, most of GATO didn't even know about the war or any threat of it until yesterday. When I first heard of it, I thought it was gonna be a joke and NSO was simply let the guy go or pay reps. Our first option was going to fight on NSO's side if needed and then peace out quickly. Then we found out NSO never told us anything about this and it was actually VE who went and told higher gov that something was goin on. Omni tried to get NSO and RoK to talk, but he was simply rebuffed by NSO and told to stay out. (Yes, go right ahead and tell ur MDP partner to shut up).

I'll say my own opinion about this crap. What Congress and Omni did was more than justified. Our military wasn't even aware of this crap until later that day, and only a few hours before the bombs went flying. GATO is no warmonger alliance, and we will not be dragged into this as a meatshield or cannon fodder for either side.

[stangad]

At least one useful thing occurred from the recent events. One less useless treaty. Who wants cowards as treaty partners anyway?

Enjoy the PR disaster, GATO.

[Thrash]

I'm shocked by how many people I agree with in this thread that I normally disagree with.

Poor show, GATO.

[Venizelos]

about time you guys let NSO go

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281356047' post='2407330']
Are you really trying to tell us you had no idea of the consequences of your raid on the Knights of Ni!? Please. There is little difference between what NSO did and what you did albeit NSO's was on a smaller scale and they didn't have the muscle behind them to get out of it. When told you were being stupid, did you stop or continue on? You continued on of course telling everyone it was none of their business, Yet, your allies stood by you and now you come here defending an alliance who bailed on an ally even when they were told they would not be dragged into the conflict.

Seriously, your posts here have the be the largest deposits of guano I have seen for some time.



Like you did with your raid on Knights of Ni!, right? The double-standard being displayed here is simply breathtaking. "When my alliance raids another alliance and then act like arrogant arsehats when called on it I'm just being stupid and my allies have to defend me! But, if an alliance gets into trouble over some rogue issue and their beligerence gets them in trouble then their allies are justified in throwing them under the bus."

The only real difference is that you had a number of powerful, well-connected allies to ward off the vultures and drag you back into line. NSO doesn't have that luxury and they'll burn because of it. If anything the positive to come out of it is they finally saw what craven opportunists their GATO "allies" are so it won't be a total loss.
[/quote]


It is a rare day when I disagree with any sentiment that you hold Tyga. But this is one such case. You speak of throwing allies under the bus, while failing to address the fact that when TOLD in no uncertain terms that the aid of a rogue would be considered an act of war, is in itself, NSO throwing allies under the bus. NSO has, since their inception, made every move possible to try to get a war declared on them. This is not an isolated incident, it is the culmination of a pattern of behavior. Asking Londo if he knew that the Ni! raid would lead to the threat of war... is a poor argument. The truth is, while it was a mistake to raid them, and maybe he should have known there would be a PR fallout, he had absolutely no way of knowing that anyone would threaten war. Why? No precedent had yet been set. Hoo set his precedent long ago. If he tells you that A will lead to B, you can BANK on A leading to B. The fact that NSO went ahead and did A without consulting a SINGLE ally of theirs, IS, throwing their allies under the bus, and is something that a half decent ally would NOT do to another. Everyone who is hating on GATO in this thread goes "herp derp cowards"... but will not take even one second to consider NSOs actions of being TOLD what the consequences to their actions were.

[shilo]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281351997' post='2407292']
Yeah man. For example in the noCB war, Chickenzilla did a TECH DEAL with Hyperion, as an anonymous reroll. That was one heck of an offensive and aggressive action that Hyperion performed, let me tell you... they did a tech deal with an anonymous reroll that happened to be on someone's EZI list. Which never existed, amirite?

But you know what? There isn't a slippery slope here. There wasn't a slippery slope for GR when they decided to get rolled with Hyperion. There wasn't a slippery slope with MK when they decided to get rolled with GR. There wasn't a slippery slope with Athens when we decided to get rolled with MK. There is no slippery slope, not for alliances of high ideals and integrity.

It's not about disagreeing with an ally's action. It's about whether or not an "ally" is, in your judgement, deliberately trying to start a war. But even then, I do believe one should follow the letter of the treaty. However, I don't think you owe such an "ally" one jot or tittle more than the bare bones letter of the treaty obligations in such a case. Where there is friendship, the bond of friendship is owed, and it covers a multitude of sins. But when a war is deliberately provoked by an "ally" at your expense, then you regret you ever signed with such a snake, grit your teeth, and honor the letter of the treaty and not one bit beyond. GATO has done this. I see no reason to condemn then in any way.
[/quote]
We can just switch Hyperion with NSO and Gato with CnG, and you outlined exactly what GATO should have done. And in the same post, you then go ahead and attempt to justify this? It's a rare case of someone clearly outargumenting himself in the very same post before trying to make the actual argument.

[Jrenster]

Well Omni, this was a pretty bad move. To be honest, this all sounds kind of fishy to me, but I won't digress.

Your reasons are pretty flimsy to begin with. If you are dropping because of we didn't tell you that Heft aided someone in the middle of a Saturday night when none of you guys were on, then you hardly have a convincing argument. If you are dropping because we didn't tell you that 5 alliances were going to hit us today, that is because we didn't know about until after you knew.

All in all, this sounds like you found an excuse to cancel on us and you did so at the first moment without any sort of talk. A good friend doesn't care about what a piece of paper says, but rather the value of the friendship itself. If you were a good friend, you would look past Article II. Now I know that you were never a good friend.

[Elendil old]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but since we're all e-lawyerin

[quote]Article II.
The signatories agree to communicate with each other regarding any possible outside threats which may cause harm to one or both parties[/quote]
If NSO didn't recognize the rogue as a possible outside threat than technically they would have no obligation to inform GATO...? Just wondering.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Elendil

[Sir Glen]

Bad show GATO. Bad show.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281363235' post='2407413']
Well Omni, this was a pretty bad move. To be honest, this all sounds kind of fishy to me, but I won't digress.

Your reasons are pretty flimsy to begin with. If you are dropping because of we didn't tell you that Heft aided someone in the middle of a Saturday night when none of you guys were on, then you hardly have a convincing argument. If you are dropping because we didn't tell you that 5 alliances were going to hit us today, that is because we didn't know about until after you knew.

All in all, this sounds like you found an excuse to cancel on us and you did so at the first moment without any sort of talk. A good friend doesn't care about what a piece of paper says, but rather the value of the friendship itself. If you were a good friend, you would look past Article II. Now I know that you were never a good friend.
[/quote]


Its pretty funny that this post about being a good friend and whatnot comes several pages after you folks have admitted to all but ignoring GATO for months. Granted, it was also said that you were now on the path of making getting to know them better a priority. Its just funny how it stacks up against the "being a good friend" argument though.

[Brenann]

Omni, this disappoints me on a personal level.

[Kowalski]

Just when things seem pretty bad for NSO something like this happens to give them hope for the future. They don't deserve not to be treatied to GATO but it's a lucky break.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281363567' post='2407423']
Its pretty funny that this post about being a good friend and whatnot comes several pages after you folks have admitted to all but ignoring GATO for months. Granted, it was also said that you were now on the path of making getting to know them better a priority. Its just funny how it stacks up against the "being a good friend" argument though.
[/quote]

What? How have we been ignoring them? We were just on the verge of announcing a new joint Brown project between our two alliances. We have been in perfect communication in the past few months. I would like you to point out where we've been saying that we have been ignoring them; because I can tell you right now that is false.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Elendil' timestamp='1281363518' post='2407421']
Not sure if this has been mentioned but since we're all e-lawyerin


If NSO didn't recognize the rogue as a possible outside threat than technically they would have no obligation to inform GATO...? Just wondering.
[/quote]

If you were TOLD by RoK (as NSO was) that aiding this nation would be an act of war, then you do in fact, aid this nation, KNOWING that RoK will deem it an act of war, and you went down this path without so much as consulting a SINGLE ally... you know what? That is violation of Article 2. You would be correct if NSO did not know RoK would view the aid as an act of war, but RoK was very clear and very specific about that issue of aid.

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281356047' post='2407330']
Are you really trying to tell us you had no idea of the consequences of your raid on the Knights of Ni!? Please. There is little difference between what NSO did and what you did albeit NSO's was on a smaller scale and they didn't have the muscle behind them to get out of it. When told you were being stupid, did you stop or continue on? You continued on of course telling everyone it was none of their business, Yet, your allies stood by you and now you come here defending an alliance who bailed on an ally even when they were told they would not be dragged into the conflict.

Seriously, your posts here have the be the largest deposits of guano I have seen for some time.
[/quote]

Ahaha, marvelous burn.

[Duncan King]

Way to show resolve, GATO! I was wondering how long it would be before you decided to cut and run on NSO. I don't think they COULD notify you of the threat as they didn't really know it was coming either. But you sure showed them for not having predicted Hoo's itchy trigger finger.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281363715' post='2407429']
What? How have we been ignoring them? We were just on the verge of announcing a new joint Brown project between our two alliances. We have been in perfect communication in the past few months. I would like you to point out where we've been saying that we have been ignoring them; because I can tell you right now that is false.
[/quote]http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90386&view=findpost&p=2406736

Ask and ye shall receive.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281363834' post='2407437']
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90386&view=findpost&p=2406736

Ask and ye shall receive.
[/quote]

I don't know what RV is talking about but he personally wasn't working with GATO much until recently. I know the rest of us have been communicating with them just fine. When RV was just a low level Marauder, he wasn't privy to as much information as we were. So it's not his fault. Regardless, he is wrong and I am right. And you are wrong.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281363952' post='2407439']
I don't know what RV is talking about but he personally wasn't working with GATO much until recently. I know the rest of us have been communicating with them just fine. When RV was just a low level Marauder, he wasn't privy to as much information as we were. So it's not his fault. Regardless, he is wrong and I am right. And you are wrong.
[/quote]

And give the Sith's history with truth and doing the right thing, I should just accept your word over someone else's. Gotcha.

Taking your explanation for what it is worth, let me pose the question to you. If you are told a certain action will cause a war, by someone you KNOW not to be one to bluff. Then you commit that action without 1st talking to your allies... How does that NOT violate article 2? Honest question. See if you can give me a good answer.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Rush Sykes

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281364065' post='2407444']
And give the Sith's history with truth and doing the right thing, I should just accept your word over someone else's. Gotcha.
[/quote]

Would you be so polite as to point out what you're talking about here? I don't recall ever being dishonest so you're going to have to provide some proof.

And ask your friends in GATO. Quit being dense. You are clearly grasping at straws trying to defend your friend's move when it was clearly a bad move.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281364065' post='2407444']
And give the Sith's history with truth and doing the right thing, I should just accept your word over someone else's. Gotcha.
[/quote]
Is your argument now becoming that Rebel Virginia has more credibility than Jrenster?

[Comrade Goby]

Gato's always been a joke.

No surprises here.

[D34th]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1281337523' post='2406999']
If NSO is brown Legion, does this make GATO brown ODN?
[/quote]

/thread

I lol'd hard

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281364270' post='2407447']
Would you be so polite as to point out what you're talking about here? I don't recall ever being dishonest so you're going to have to provide some proof.

And ask your friends in GATO. Quit being dense. You are clearly grasping at straws trying to defend your friend's move when it was clearly a bad move.
[/quote]

In retrospect, honesty was a poor choice of words, as in CN, the truth lies in perspective more than in fact. For that, I apologize. But, you still did not answer my question. I am most interested in your answer to my question.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1281364065' post='2407444']
Taking your explanation for what it is worth, let me pose the question to you. If you are told a certain action will cause a war, by someone you KNOW not to be one to bluff. Then you commit that action without 1st talking to your allies... How does that NOT violate article 2? Honest question. See if you can give me a good answer.
[/quote]

Because this literally happened in a period of a couple of hours in the middle of a Saturday night when no one from GATO was on. Everyone was tired and wanted to go to sleep. LintWad, heggo, I, and Anthony were not there. Most of our other government members were not on. There. That's our excuse for bad communication. We were tired and they were not available.

Given enough time, we would have told GATO that following Sunday. But they already found out that a couple of alliances were going to hit us.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Jrenster