Decree of the Sith

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281425070' post='2409296']
As I have stated in other places to other people, you are pinning things on the Sith which the Sith did not do. Heft is responsible for those issues. People superior to Heft immediately sought to negotiate a solution with RoK, seeing the problems Heft had caused. RoK blatantly ignored this. And now in an effort to paint RoK in a positive light, you twist reality, to try and make them look like something other than the aggressive warmongers they are. NSO has held out the branch of peace and diplomacy since the moment Heft made his error. RoK completely ignored this diplomacy.

NSO is not responsible, simply because people superior to Heft have been reaching out to RoK from the start of this to discuss a peaceful and diplomatic solution. But RoK didn't want peace. And it's clear VE didn't either. And of course you're not going to agree with me, you're going to keep spouting the same lines, you must, you can't admit that this is war for the sake of war.

If someone wants to negotiate with 64Digits, I'd expect they would come to me with their issue, not some lower member and then claim that whatever that lower guy said is our official policy - Especially if I'm trying to contact that someone myself to rectify whatever situation it might be.
[/quote]

You're missing the point.

NSO entered in a state of war with Rok and TENE once that aid was sent. The only thing to negotiate from that point onwards was NSO's surrender.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281424911' post='2409294']
It was a situation with a rogue that needed to be 'reconciled' ...

Simple.
[/quote]Oh, that. But then we do have the issue of confusion over the issue as their member is being attacked (As much as you will point at the war screens and say "LOL SEE" it is more complicated than that, and you know it), and whether or not NSO should support their member being attacked.

Heft erred in his judgment on this matter, by ignoring the Sith policy of not aiding nations until they have resolved their conflicts. This nation clearly hadn't, and the aid should never have been given.

However, [i]those superior to Heft immediately attempted to rectify the issue[/i], efforts which RoK purposely ignored in the interests of starting a war. NSO cannot be held accountable because of the attempted negotiation, which RoK ignored when they hastily took the aggressive route. It is this fact, and this fact alone, which puts the blame on RoK instead of NSO.

[caligula]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281425568' post='2409300']


However, [i]those superior to Heft immediately attempted to rectify the issue[/i], efforts which RoK purposely ignored in the interests of starting a war. NSO cannot be held accountable because of the attempted negotiation, which RoK ignored when they hastily took the aggressive route. It is this fact, and this fact alone, which puts the blame on RoK instead of NSO.
[/quote]


Why do you keep saying that?

The only one with a higher rank than Heft is Lintwad AFAIK.

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281425638' post='2409301']
Why do you keep saying that?

The only one with a higher rank than Heft is Lintwad AFAIK.
[/quote]
And heggo. Heft, RV, Anthony, and Jrenster are all equal in rank. Thats why its being brought up.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Chron

[Rayvon]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281425638' post='2409301']
Why do you keep saying that?

The only one with a higher rank than Heft is Lintwad AFAIK.
[/quote]

And Heggo

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281425568' post='2409300']
Oh, that. But then we do have the issue of confusion over the issue as their member is being attacked (As much as you will point at the war screens and say "LOL SEE" it is more complicated than that, and you know it), and whether or not NSO should support their member being attacked.

Heft erred in his judgment on this matter, by ignoring the Sith policy of not aiding nations until they have resolved their conflicts. This nation clearly hadn't, and the aid should never have been given.

However, [i]those superior to Heft immediately attempted to rectify the issue[/i], efforts which RoK purposely ignored in the interests of starting a war. NSO cannot be held accountable because of the attempted negotiation, which RoK ignored when they hastily took the aggressive route. It is this fact, and this fact alone, which puts the blame on RoK instead of NSO.
[/quote]

NSO took the aggressive route as soon as the aid was sent.

And no, no one above Heft attempted to rectify the situation immediately.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281425795' post='2409305']
NSO took the aggressive route as soon as the aid was sent.

And no, no one above Heft attempted to rectify the situation immediately.
[/quote]
Someone at Heft's level (RV) attempted to, though. Once again, that line of argument doesnt work. Hefts superiors were not available, but his contemporaries were.

[caligula]

Either way, he clearly has the authority to send aid, as was done.
I don't understand how RoK is at fault for taking the word of a high ranking government official at face value, nor why they should have to come back to the table just because the alliance wanted to rethink its position after they found out Hoo was serious when he told Heft he considered an action most in the OOC: game /OOC to be an act of war, an act of war.

This is probably the worst argument for NSO that I've heard.

I think it's pathetic that people are trying to smear Heft.

Edited August 10, 2010 by caligula

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281425188' post='2409297']
You're missing the point.

NSO entered in a state of war with Rok and TENE once that aid was sent. The only thing to negotiate from that point onwards was NSO's surrender.
[/quote]
Right, and if some base member of 64Digits attacks a base member of RIA, we have 'entered a state of war' with RIA by those standards. However, typically, level heads will negotiate the issue; I would, for example, go to RIA leadership and say "Hey man, sorry bout this, what can I do to fix the situation?"

And that's exactly what NSO tried to do with RoK. RoK ignored them and declared war instead.

The issue is [i]nothing that five minutes of negotiation could not have solved[/i]. You continue to ignore this fact, ignoring the greater picture as you sit there repeating yourselves that NSO, by the slimmest technical standards, transgressed against RoK, and therefore deserve to die.

Who needs diplomacy anyway, am I right?

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281425886' post='2409309']
Either way, he clearly has the authority to send aid, as was done.
I don't understand how RoK is at fault for taking the word of a high ranking government official at face value, nor why they should have to come back to the table just because the alliance wanted to rethink its position after they found out Hoo was serious.

This is probably the worst argument for NSO that I've heard.
[/quote]
Actually the argument was over the fact that there was no proof given to contradict our members version of events, which was substantiated with screenshots to that effect.

So as far as we were concerned, he wasn't a rogue. Hoo didnt care whether or not he had to prove it, he had declared our member a rogue, and then made it clear that he had no intention of negotiating that view of events.

Sorry, but Hoo being stubborn isn't reason enough for us to cut and run on one of our members. Any one of them.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281425873' post='2409308']
Someone at Heft's level (RV) attempted to, though. Once again, that line of argument doesnt work. Hefts superiors were not available, but his contemporaries were.
[/quote]I apologize for getting this minor detail incorrect. Nonetheless, the overall point of my posts still stands.

[caligula]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281426008' post='2409311']
Right, and if some base member of 64Digits attacks a base member of RIA, we have 'entered a state of war' with RIA by those standards. However, typically, level heads will negotiate the issue; I would, for example, go to RIA leadership and say "Hey man, sorry bout this, what can I do to fix the situation?"

[/quote]


Again.

This argument is fallacious.

Heft is a well established high ranking government member of the NSO.

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281426136' post='2409315']
Again.

This argument is fallacious.

Heft is a well established high ranking government member of the NSO.
[/quote]
So is Rebel Virginia.

So why was he ignored when he attempted to rectify the situation immediately afterward?

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281425886' post='2409309']


I think it's pathetic that people are trying to smear Heft.
[/quote]Then quit doing it.

[caligula]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281426120' post='2409313']


Sorry, but Hoo being stubborn isn't reason enough for us to cut and run on one of our members. Any one of them.
[/quote]

Well, in light of this, you should probably check new applicants war screens.

But I don't want to sound like an imbocile giving advice with hindsight.

[Vol Navy]

Right is pretty much whatever SG says it is at this point, just like it was what the Hegemony said when they ruled the world.

RoK doesn't have to work things out because they have the muscle and connections to do as they please. It's the way of Bob and always has been. That's why all the true moralists from Karma were such suckers, working with so many who curbstomped right alongside Pacifica/Q to change how the world worked. They didn't change how the world worked, just who runs it.

[caligula]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281426203' post='2409316']
So is Rebel Virginia.

So why was he ignored when he attempted to rectify the situation immediately afterward?

Then quit doing it.
[/quote]

I'm not.
I'm commenting at the lack of respect he is being shown by his fellow alliance mates even.
When someone messes up you talk to them about it inside, you don't trash them on the OWF.

As for the first, Hoo took Hefts word as the official stance of NSO on the matter, a state of war existed thereafter.
While surely they could've probably dealt with it if they chose to, Hoo felt the grievance was strong enough to declare war.
It's pretty simple to me.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281425886' post='2409309']
I don't understand how RoK is at fault for taking the word of a high ranking government official at face value, nor why they should have to come back to the table just because the alliance wanted to rethink its position [/quote]Because accepting a short chat with people trying to reach a diplomatic solution, and maybe for example demanding that $24 million be sent to the aggrieved nations along with an apology, is oh so difficult, when you can just smash things instead.

[quote]I think it's pathetic that people are trying to smear Heft.
[/quote]Heft himself has repeatedly admitted his error. It's not a smear campaign, it is a presentation of the facts.

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281426244' post='2409317']
Well, in light of this, you should probably check new applicants war screens.

But I don't want to sound like an imbocile giving advice with hindsight.
[/quote]
Ouch, burn, except we did. And upon looking into it, it seems that despite being the attacker, he was not the initial aggressor in this event.

I like your last sentence though, it's very ironic given what you're trying to imply.

[PotFace]

Does anyone besides me find it funny that people are saying, "they started it" in their DoWs?

[caligula]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281426395' post='2409323']
Ouch, burn, except we did. And upon looking into it, it seems that despite being the attacker, he was not the initial aggressor in this event.

I like your last sentence though, it's very ironic given what you're trying to imply.
[/quote]

Meh, I just felt I'd give you the laugh.

IIRC, he was ghosting our AA at the time of those spy attacks, and that is the only evidence I have seen.

So...

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281426354' post='2409321']

As for the first, Hoo took Hefts word as the official stance of NSO on the matter, a state of war existed thereafter.
While surely they could've probably dealt with it if they chose to, Hoo felt the grievance was strong enough to declare war.
It's pretty simple to me.
[/quote]
So wait. This has nothing to do with Heft's actual position, and entirely with Hoo's choice to use this as a reason for a DoW?

Let me catch my breath, it seems you've just stumbled upon what actually happened and Im honestly a bit shocked.

[quote]I'm not.
I'm commenting at the lack of respect he is being shown by his fellow alliance mates even.
When someone messes up you talk to them about it inside, you don't trash them on the OWF.[/quote]Im glad that you agree that this war wasn't really all of Heft's doing either. And Im sure he appreciates you defending him for faults he himself has already admitted to doing.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Chron

[Ogaden]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281426008' post='2409311']
Right, and if some base member of 64Digits attacks a base member of RIA, we have 'entered a state of war' with RIA by those standards. However, typically, level heads will negotiate the issue; I would, for example, go to RIA leadership and say "Hey man, sorry bout this, what can I do to fix the situation?"

And that's exactly what NSO tried to do with RoK. RoK ignored them and declared war instead.

The issue is [i]nothing that five minutes of negotiation could not have solved[/i]. You continue to ignore this fact, ignoring the greater picture as you sit there repeating yourselves that NSO, by the slimmest technical standards, transgressed against RoK, and therefore deserve to die.

Who needs diplomacy anyway, am I right?
[/quote]

If one of your members attacked an RIAer and you sent them aid, that would be an act of war by our standards as well as just about everyone else on this planet. If you, like NSO, rejected any reparations and then tried to justify what that member did, AND sent them 2 aid packages, you bet your butt we'd consider that an act of war and respond accordingly.

[caligula]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281426619' post='2409327']
So wait. This has nothing to do with Heft's actual position, and entirely with Hoo's choice to use this as a reason for a DoW?

Let me catch my breath, it seems you've just stumbled upon what actually happened and Im honestly a bit shocked.

Im glad that you agree that this war wasn't really all of Heft's doing either. And Im sure he appreciates you defending him for faults he himself has already admitted to doing.
[/quote]


I can't say what their interaction was but it was a measuring contest of some sort.

Guess who won?

While that may be what's really behind it, the way it started or who's at fault should not be of question.

Edited August 10, 2010 by caligula

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281426008' post='2409311']
Right, and if some base member of 64Digits attacks a base member of RIA, we have 'entered a state of war' with RIA by those standards. However, typically, level heads will negotiate the issue; I would, for example, go to RIA leadership and say "Hey man, sorry bout this, what can I do to fix the situation?"
[/quote]

If I contact you and you say it is an alliance sanction action (like Rok did) then yes, I'd consider it a state of war.

[TehChron]

[quote name='caligula' timestamp='1281426585' post='2409325']
Meh, I just felt I'd give you the laugh.

IIRC, he was ghosting our AA at the time of those spy attacks, and that is the only evidence I have seen.

So...
[/quote]
So let me get this straight.

An unaligned ghost gets spied on randomly by a RoK protectorate.

Unaligned attacks back at those that attempted to spy on him.

Unaligned joins NSO once it becomes clear that hes going to be hit, and realizes the advantages of being in an alliance.

Hoo declares him a "rogue" despite not actually being one, Heft points out that despite his initial standing, there's evidence that the individual in question was simply defending himself. Hoo says hes a rogue and refuses to provide evidence contradicting the screens we were provided with.

Heft sends aid to a member in need of assistance since his war slots are filled. After Hoo says that it would be considered an act of war. Heft does not take him seriously since the entire situation is ridiculous in the first place, then goes to bed after alerting RV to the situation.

RV tries to handle it so the situation can be resolved, but is ignored. RoK prepares to roll us the next day.

Yeah, from that standpoint, it becomes pretty clear that while Heft's judgment in provoking Hoo may have been questionable, the set up isnt quite as cut and dry as you seem to mistakenly think.