Ragnarok Declaration of War

[Keres]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281672974' post='2413879']
Yes, please see my response to this point just a few posts ago.
[/quote]

yeah... still doesn't address the fact an NSO govt member's "error" was really just a slap in the face of RoK... did the ONE thing he was warned against, the ONE thing that could of made this into a war... and just went and did it, Hoo never even had the obligation to go to Heft and warn him numerous times that doing this, would be considered aiding an enemy and grounds for war, as it always has been and is general common sense... Hoo made sure it was well understood and was clear... and it was done anyway, the choice was his.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281673298' post='2413892']
Your glossing over some facts, in the first instance, your MoD asked to be attacked in their chan, as in a duel, but whatever.

Heft is in fact a member of NSO government, and Heft ordered the aid to be sent to Sedrick, so it is plainly seen that Heft a high member of NSO government ordered that acts of war perpetrated against RoK. I don't see how you can get around that fact.
[/quote]
No, that isn't how it happened at all. Then or now.

The bottom line is that RoK declared upon a member of the NSO without notification or warning to the NSO [i]at all[/i]. Regardless of anything that happened after that fact at what point did it become acceptable for an alliance to just declare multiple wars against a member of another alliance without some form of heads up? Heft asked for proof of Hoo's position after he went to him and Hoo would/could not provide it. What's up with that? That is just !@#$%* business right there. He should have had his stuff together beforehand. The only logical reason for this not occurring seems to be the desired escalation, which we have observed is likely not to happen.

So RoK and friends get to beat up on the NSO while the alliance they were supposedly protecting also gets beat up. Seems like a bad plan all around, even if both sides made some errors in judgement along the way.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281673519' post='2413899']
yeah... still doesn't address the fact an NSO govt member's "error" was really just a slap in the face of RoK... did the ONE thing he was warned against, the ONE thing that could of made this into a war... and just went and did it, Hoo never even had the obligation to go to Heft and warn him numerous times that doing this, would be considered aiding an enemy and grounds for war, as it always has been and is general common sense... Hoo made sure it was well understood and was clear... and it was done anyway, the choice was his.
[/quote]
As I just stated though, didn't Hoo have an obligation, at least from a common courtesy standpoint in regards to the standard conventions of alliance politics, to inform the NSO prior to RoK declaring multiple wars on Sedrick?

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281671214' post='2413832']
I haven't been around so I don't really know what is going on. Aside from my popping in the other night and going back and forth with a few people I haven't paid this much attention, mainly because I am still retired.

But, after taking a few minutes to actually read the logs I have to say I am a bit surprised at how things went down.

Most people here know Heft. They know that he has been here for a long time and that he is one of the few "good" diplomats in the Cyberverse. When I read the logs in the OP and review the sequence of events I can't help to objectively (and yes, I mean that, not for or against the Order, but just as a non-combatant observer) see some glaringly obvious errors between what is being pushed as the "common" acceptance of the CB and reality.

This is how I processed the sequence of events, if they are in error please correct me, as I said, I have not been paying attention:

1. Sedrick goes rogue on TENE (a practice I disagree with)
2. TENE counters against Sedrick (good, he deserved it if he was a rogue)
3. Sedrick joins NSO (not sure why this happened, I was always clear that active rogues needed to get their !@#$ together first but meh, it happened evidently)
4. RoK declares on Sedrick (I know RoK is TENE's protector but is this generally how this happens? Again, I don't know.)
5. Heft approaches Hoo to ask why RoK is attacking a NSO member (seems reasonable enough)
6. Hoo states that Sedrick attacked their protectorate and they are just supporting them (okay, not exactly the best way to go about it but still justified IMO)
7. Hoo states that attacks on Sedrick will stop if Sedrick pays reps to TENE (okay, fine, but if he is getting the crap beat out of him how is he going to have the funds to pay?)
8. Heft states that NSO will send aid to Sedrick (not my preferred response but Heft states that it was for peace very specifically, I could interpret that as this aid being meant to pay those reps)
9. Hoo states that it is an act of war and declares without discussion of the issue (really? If it was [i]any[/i] other alliance in the Cyberverse would this have happened?)
10. Heft again states that he was sending aid to Sedrick in order to secure peace (again, I can only surmise that this was intended as some form of support for the rep payment)

What am I missing here?
[/quote]

Prior to #1, at least one unsuccessful spy attack was launched by a TENE nation against Sedrick. Prior to that, there have been accusations by TENE that Sedrick launched spy attacks against them, but no solid proof has been offered. Prior to that, Sedrick was by all appearances happily dealing tech to Ragnarok as a member of TENE, when he suddenly he departed and attempted to join MHA. Indications are that a dispute over loans caused him to resign.

Besides, that you are pretty much up-to-date.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281673574' post='2413901']
No, that isn't how it happened at all. Then or now.

The bottom line is that RoK declared upon a member of the NSO without notification or warning to the NSO [i]at all[/i]. Regardless of anything that happened after that fact at what point did it become acceptable for an alliance to just declare multiple wars against a member of another alliance without some form of heads up? Heft asked for proof of Hoo's position after he went to him and Hoo would/could not provide it. What's up with that? That is just !@#$%* business right there. He should have had his stuff together beforehand. The only logical reason for this not occurring seems to be the desired escalation, which we have observed is likely not to happen.

So RoK and friends get to beat up on the NSO while the alliance they were supposedly protecting also gets beat up. Seems like a bad plan all around, even if both sides made some errors in judgement along the way.
[/quote]
Sedrick was at a state of war with TENE and RoK prior to NSO accepting him. Have you forgotten the basic principles of how a protectorate works? The additional wars declared on Sedrick were a continuation of the existing wars Sedrick was engaged in. NSO choose to interject themselves in the war by accepting Sedrick as a member and then escalated it into a state of multiple alliance war by actively engaging TENE/RoK in war when Heft ordered the aid sent.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281674373' post='2413931']
Sedrick was at a state of war with TENE and RoK prior to NSO accepting him. Have you forgotten the basic principles of how a protectorate works? The additional wars declared on Sedrick were a continuation of the existing wars Sedrick was engaged in. NSO choose to interject themselves in the war by accepting Sedrick as a member and then escalated it into a state of multiple alliance war by actively engaging TENE/RoK in war when Heft ordered the aid sent.
[/quote]
You are incorrect.

Sedrick was in a state of war with TENE from what I have gathered and even that is debatable since the only provable aspect of that seems to be that TENE sent a spy mission against Sedrick, not the other way around. RoK declared after Sedrick was carrying the NSO banner.

Perhaps you should re-evaluate your talking points.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281674530' post='2413936']
You are incorrect.

Sedrick was in a state of war with TENE from what I have gathered and even that is debatable since the only provable aspect of that seems to be that TENE sent a spy mission against Sedrick, not the other way around. RoK declared after Sedrick was carrying the NSO banner.

Perhaps you should re-evaluate your talking points.
[/quote]
The moment Sedrick attack a TENE nation he was also at war with RoK. Read their Protectorate treaty.
Whether Sedrick launched the first attack or not doesn't really matter as far as NSO is concerned, active war was underway which involved Sedrick, TENE and RoK prior to Sedrick joining NSO

Edited August 13, 2010 by Merrie Melodies

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281674661' post='2413939']
The moment Sedrick attack a TENE nation he was also at war with RoK. Read their Protectorate treaty.
Whether Sedrick launched the first attack or not doesn't really matter as far as NSO is concerned, active war was underway which involved Sedrick, TENE and RoK prior to Sedrick joining NSO
[/quote]
Again, no.

In order for the latter to be logically correct the former has to be true and that has not been proven by any party and denied by some.

The NSO admitted a nation that was "at war" with TENE by sole virtue of a TENE member spying against it, not the other way around. There would be no logical reason for the NSO to have any inclination that this nation had any prior engagements with TENE or any issues with RoK.

It is time for people to stop playing dumb and just accept the facts of the situation. RoK hoped for escalation, they saw this as a way to get it and played it out and it didn't work. They will get their shots in at NSO and go home happy because everyone hates the NSO, right? Who loses? No one.

Oh wait, TENE does. But that doesn't really matter overall, right? They are just a [s]meatshield[/s] protectorate.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Ivan Moldavi

[Salmia]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281654621' post='2413398']
RoK committed an act of war on NSO by attacking Sedrick without even explaining the situation to NSO.

Sedrick was at war with TENE for several days, but only upon joining NSO was he attacked. Why didn't RoK attack him before?

NSO had every right to aid Sedrick against the RoK attack... Unfortunately, the act was invalidated because it was also aiding his war against TENE. That is the point I'm trying to make. An act of war was committed against TENE, but not against RoK.

[b]Before we can discuss opinion on whether or not RoK was justified, we must first get the facts straight.
[/b]
(And just because RoK [i]considers[/i] it an act of war against them, does not mean it actually is. It only means that their policy is to treat it with the same weight as if an act of war was committed.)
[/quote]

Bold is mine.

You know, throughout this entire thread, you've sounded like a cheerleader for NSO, willing to twist [i]anything[/i] to get your own way and ignoring that doesn't match up to you.

The facts are laid out in this thread, everyone knows them. It is up to people to choose their own interpretation. The facts are there but the implications and the behind the word twisting you're trying to do? That is you trying add your interpretation into it.

We've moved beyond the facts already, you're just trying to twist the facts to your point of view of "NSO is innocent! NSO did nothing wrong!"

Fact of the matter - both parties could have handled this better, NSO did a slap in the face to RoK, RoK wasn't exactly eager to be diplomatic but what else do you expect when you have two people who do not like each other? That means you need to tread lines even more carefully than before. Both have strong personalities, both aren't exactly known for backing down. It is not a surprise. Is the war exactly a great one? No.

But to say NSO did no wrong is to paint a picture of sugar and plums and argue something that has long been lost. People do not debate the validity of the CB - that is accepted. A casus bellus is up to the alliance declaring that makes it valid to them. Whether the rest of us agree with it is up to us.

I've watched throughout this thread as you twisted everything to the side. RoK considers it an act of war against them so it is an act of war. This war proves that. You can't stop the fact they did declare. So it was an act of war and has been considered so in the past.

I've also seen you argue that an attack on a protectorate is not an attack on a protector and that a piece of paper doesn't make it reality. Do you realize what standards you've been arguing will turn us back to the stone age? In order to win your "PR" battle for whatever reason, you discard everything that would make us recede boundaries. Treaties are accepted facts, an attack on a protectorate is an attack on a protector. You can't dictate someone's treaty to someone else.

You can disagree but you're trying to shove your views and replace the facts with your slant on it. The facts are there already, you're just trying to put your own spin on it and in it - you're damaging things by running through standards we've already set. Do you really want to send the message it is okay for people to attack protectorates and protectors won't protect the protectorate? 64digits was a protectorate once upon a time, TPF protected you. An attack on you would've been an attack on TPF and TPF would've responded.

To debate, you shouldn't just toss everything to the curb just to make the point of making NSO appear angelic because the facts state for themselves but your twisting? You're setting new standards by shredding through old ones with your willingness to turn everything into a point of contention just to make your point. Sacricificing the security of what a treaty is? Doubting the fact that a treaty is a treaty?

Please take PR lessons because you're destroying everything in one ammunition shot and setting precedents that should not be set at all. When you can't admit someone did something wrong on your "side" just because it is the opposing, there is something wrong. That is a mistake, you have to be able to see all points and not just shred through whatever you can.

NSO committed a wrong, RoK and NSO didn't get along before well, it was a narrow line. It is understood that the situation wasn't handled as well as it could've been but you don't need to handle it that way in order to make your point. You paint a side purposefully and stir up precedents no one wants set. Don't lose your scruples when trying to make a point, you hurt the community when you do that as well as make yourself look like a cheerleader who has his hands over his ears and is going "lalalla" to anything that is contradictory to what he wants.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Salmia

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1281675031' post='2413946']
Bold is mine.

You know, throughout this entire thread, you've sounded like a cheerleader for NSO, willing to twist [i]anything[/i] to get your own way and ignoring that doesn't match up to you.

The facts are laid out in this thread, everyone knows them. It is up to people to choose their own interpretation. The facts are there but the implications and the behind the word twisting you're trying to do? That is you trying add your interpretation into it.

We've moved beyond the facts already, you're just trying to twist the facts to your point of view of "NSO is innocent! NSO did nothing wrong!"

Fact of the matter - both parties could have handled this better, NSO did a slap in the face to RoK, RoK wasn't exactly eager to be diplomatic but what else do you expect when you have two people who do not like each other? That means you need to tread lines even more carefully than before. Both have strong personalities, both aren't exactly known for backing down. It is not a surprise. Is the war exactly a great one? No.

But to say NSO did no wrong is to paint a picture of sugar and plums and argue something that has long been lost. People do not debate the validity of the CB - that is accepted. A casus bellus is up to the alliance declaring that makes it valid to them. Whether the rest of us agree with it is up to us.

I've watched throughout this thread as you twisted everything to the side. RoK considers it an act of war against them so it is an act of war. This war proves that. You can't stop the fact they did declare. So it was an act of war and has been considered so in the past.

I've also seen you argue that an attack on a protectorate is not an attack on a protector and that a piece of paper doesn't make it reality. Do you realize what standards you've been arguing will turn us back to the stone age? In order to win your "PR" battle for whatever reason, you discard everything that would make us recede boundaries. Treaties are accepted facts, an attack on a protectorate is an attack on a protector. You can't dictate someone's treaty to someone else.

You can disagree but you're trying to shove your views and replace the facts with your slant on it. The facts are there already, you're just trying to put your own spin on it and in it - you're damaging things by running through standards we've already set. Do you really want to send the message it is okay for people to attack protectorates and protectors won't protect the protectorate? 64digits was a protectorate once upon a time, TPF protected you. An attack on you would've been an attack on TPF and TPF would've responded.

To debate, you shouldn't just toss everything to the curb just to make the point of making NSO appear angelic because the facts state for themselves but your twisting? You're setting new standards by shredding through old ones with your willingness to turn everything into a point of contention just to make your point. Sacricificing the security of what a treaty is? Doubting the fact that a treaty is a treaty?

Please take PR lessons because you're destroying everything in one ammunition shot and setting precedents that should not be set at all. When you can't admit someone did something wrong on your "side" just because it is the opposing, there is something wrong. That is a mistake, you have to be able to see all points and not just shred through whatever you can.

NSO committed a wrong, RoK and NSO didn't get along before well, it was a narrow line. It is understood that the situation wasn't handled as well as it could've been but you don't need to handle it that way in order to make your point. You paint a side purposefully and stir up precedents no one wants set. Don't lose your scruples when trying to make a point, you hurt the community when you do that as well as make yourself look like a cheerleader who refuses to listen and only has selective listening.
[/quote]
Considering that no evidence has been produced that justifies the position that Sedrick declared on TENE and the only evidence in existance is TENE spying on Sedrick couldn't your same argument be used to justify the validity of a NSO CB against RoK for declaring upon one of their members?

Just curious.

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1281675031' post='2413946']
stuff
[/quote]

I believe this is the part of the thread where Mia brutally slaughters and dismantles HoT and we all celebrate with coffee and donuts.

[Lennox]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281671214' post='2413832']
What am I missing here?
[/quote]

The absence of logic.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281675011' post='2413945']
Again, no.

In order for the latter to be logically correct the former has to be true and that has not been proven by any party and denied by some.

The NSO admitted a nation that was "at war" with TENE by sole virtue of a TENE member spying against it, not the other way around. There would be no logical reason for the NSO to have any inclination that this nation had any prior engagements with TENE or any issues with RoK.

It is time for people to stop playing dumb and just accept the facts of the situation. RoK hoped for escalation, they saw this as a way to get it and played it out and it didn't work. They will get their shots in at NSO and go home happy because everyone hates the NSO, right? Who loses? No one.

Oh wait, TENE does. But that doesn't really matter overall, right? They are just a [s]meatshield[/s] protectorate.
[/quote]
[img]http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/14/32/95/80/sedric10.jpg[/img]
Take a close look at Sedrick' AA, now tell me again how he wasn't at war with TENE/RoK prior to joining NSO.

[Salmia]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281675337' post='2413951']
Considering that no evidence has been produced that justifies the position that Sedrick declared on TENE and the only evidence in existance is TENE spying on Sedrick couldn't your same argument be used to justify the validity of a NSO CB against RoK for declaring upon one of their members?

Just curious.
[/quote]

It could be. As I said, I don't believe this was handled well by either RoK or NSO. Both have a strong personality and a dislike for each other. Diplomacy is a fine dance, it failed this time. Many alliances can have a CB easily, it is up to us whether we use it or not.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281675554' post='2413963']
[img]http://i32.servimg.com/u/f32/14/32/95/80/sedric10.jpg[/img]
Take a close look at Sedrick' AA, now tell me again how he wasn't at war with TENE/RoK prior to joining NSO.
[/quote]
Sure, those attacks occurred after a member of TENE spied on him, which is at least as marginally a good CB as $6mil in aid. Self defense is not an act of aggressive war.

EDIT: Also, why aren't the color boxes complete on that second war? Odd.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Ivan Moldavi

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281675337' post='2413951']
[b]Considering that no evidence has been produced that justifies the position that Sedrick declared on TENE[/b] and the only evidence in existance is TENE spying on Sedrick couldn't your same argument be used to justify the validity of a NSO CB against RoK for declaring upon one of their members?

Just curious.
[/quote]



I think I'll just let you in on something and then let you respond to you...

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=410982&Extended=1"]http://www.cybernati...0982&Extended=1[/url]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281674797' post='2413940']
I will give you a B- for this effort but really, you can do better.
[/quote]

Now, Sederic may or may not have had a reason to do what he did (that part will be debated ad nauseum), [u]but that doesn't change the fact that he did, in fact, declare on TENE[/u]. Once again, a solid B- effort there, Ivan.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Lord Boris

[keenu]

Doesn't look like anyone could of photoshoped it

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281675637' post='2413967']
Sure, those attacks occurred after a member of TENE spied on him, which is at least as marginally a good CB as $6mil in aid. Self defense is not an act of aggressive war.

EDIT: Also, why aren't the color boxes complete on that second war? Odd.
[/quote]
Regardless of self defense or aggressive, the fact is a state of war did exist prior to NSO membership, NSO choose to intervene and we are now witnessing the results of that intervention.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1281675813' post='2413969']
I think I'll just let you in on something and then let you respond to you...

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=410982&Extended=1"]http://www.cybernati...0982&Extended=1[/url]



Now, Sederic may or may not have had a reason to do what he did (that part will be debated ad nauseum), [u]but that doesn't change the fact that he did, in fact, declare on TENE[/u]. Once again, a solid B- effort there, Ivan.
[/quote]
As usual, the wiseguys that think they will get a good potshot in on me are a little slow on the draw.

See my response to this same "shocking revelation" earlier on the page.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281675637' post='2413967']
Sure, those attacks occurred after a member of TENE spied on him, which is at least as marginally a good CB as $6mil in aid. Self defense is not an act of aggressive war.

EDIT: Also, why aren't the color boxes complete on that second war? Odd.
[/quote]
Beats the heck out of me why the color boxes aren't complete, this was put up by a NSO member, go ask Fernando12.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281675838' post='2413971']
Regardless of self defense or aggressive, the fact is a state of war did exist prior to NSO membership, NSO choose to intervene and we are now witnessing the results of that intervention.
[/quote]
Actually no. Sedric had offered peace on both wars prior to membership and there were no ongoing discussions or issues with RoK.

You need to stick with one line of thought.

No nation has ever been told that because they are in a defensive war with some other alliances protectorate that they are automatically in an aggressive war with that alliance. That makes no sense.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281675838' post='2413971']
Regardless of self defense or aggressive, the fact is a state of war did exist prior to NSO membership, NSO choose to intervene and we are now witnessing the results of that intervention.
[/quote]

I don't get this one. Rok gets to roll an alliance because their protectorate committed an act of war...?

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281675954' post='2413976']
As usual, the wiseguys that think they will get a good potshot in on me are a little slow on the draw.

See my response to this same "shocking revelation" earlier on the page.
[/quote]

what you gave as a 'response' was pretty weak, actually. You try to justify his actions in it, but justification or lack thereof does not is not a requirement for the existance of something. Who fired the first spy attacks? We may never know. What we do know, however,is that he had been in a state of conflict with a Ragnarok protectorate prior to his joining NSO, and NSO opted to incite conflict by fueling the fire with aid after a direct warning not to do so.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1281676135' post='2413983']
Actually no. Sedric had offered peace on both wars prior to membership and there were no ongoing discussions or issues with RoK.

You need to stick with one line of thought.

No nation has ever been told that because they are in a defensive war with some other alliances protectorate that they are automatically in an aggressive war with that alliance. That makes no sense.
[/quote]
The first war in that string was launched by Sedrick, you can twist that worm all you want, wont change the fact its a worm. Just because Sedrick "offered" peace doesn't mean jack if it isn't accepted by alliance leadership. What makes no sense is NSO thinking they can aid a nation at war with other alliances and walk away.

[Yankees Empire]

[quote name='Salmia' timestamp='1281675031' post='2413946']
snip
[/quote]

Fantastic post, and can't say I disagree with any of it.